Alternative Damage Bonuses

[Chaot]

Please note that my preferred poison is Elric! Things may break down differently using another BRP flavor.

I had played a number of other games before I fell for BRP. If I had to pin down the most influential games though it would probably be RC D&D and MERPS. One thing that was a bit of a rough transition was the Size stat. I liked the idea of it but I was a bit soured on how important it was mechanically for combat. If one wanted to be a powerhouse on the battlefield they were channeled into making a hulking brute of a character.

This goes against my preference that a system should be able to support Fafhrd and the Mouser as equals on the battlefield. Yes, Fafhrd is stronger and Mouser is quicker, but despite the advantage of first strike, I was finding that players would pump up Siz if they wanted to play characters who dominated the battle field. The exception to that would be missile weapon users, who would gladly sacrifice increased damage bonus and hit points for a quicker turn in combat.

So I changed it. Damage Bonus was broken down into Brawn (Str+Siz) and Finesse (Str+Dex). Brawn is used to power and leverage your way through a situation and is suitable to any weapon type. Finesse is good for small and medium weapons, where placement and speed can be more important than leverage.

So, that made me happy and my players didn’t complain. Things worked fine and I even started seeing some smaller fighters. More recently, I mentioned this in a thread here someplace and some very perceptive poster, whom I’d have to pull up the thread again to place a name to, asked why not expand this to the other stats.

Well, I watched RDJ’s Sherlock Holmes sequel the other day and it was enough to get me to put down my ideas.

The Intellect

Some have the ability to read a foe so finely that said foe’s actions are so easily predictable that The Intellect is able to counter any move with alacrity and deadly accuracy. Beware such an opponent, for a misguided sniff or casual shift of your weight, or an unthinking blink could easily be your death.

Acuity Bonus

Intelligence of 16 or higher. (Str+Int)

There are three ways in which a player may use this damage bonus type. The character must either engage the subject in conversation (1-5 minutes time), observe the subject in one round of combat without being a participant or spar with the subject for three combat rounds using their standard damage bonus. At the end of this period, the player may make an Insight roll. If successful, the player may use their Acuity Bonus.

Every five rounds, the player must reevaluate the situation, requiring another Insight roll. If they succeed, they can continue using their Acuity in combat. If they fail their roll, they must reengage their opponent in one of the three above manners.

The Mystic

There are those with such an innate sense of the primal power surrounding them that they can channel this magical energy into an attack. The Mystic is one such as this. A mystic feels the strength of the sword, the presence of the air, the very life force of their opponent. Through effort of will, The Mystic may take this connection and loose it during combat.

Animus Bonus

Power of 16 or higher. (Str+Pow)

At the cost of 2 mp per combat round, The Mystic may use their Animus in combat. If The Mystic’s magic points are reduced to zero, The Mystic looses consciousness.

The Charismatic

When The Charismatic enters a room, everyone knows. Their swagger and grace, their every move announcing certainty. Some Charismatics use banter to throw a foe, others have cultivated a cool and calculating, but effectively imposing demeanor. They are leaders of men, able to inspire their comrades to feats of arms that would be otherwise impossible. Regardless of style, The Charismatic has enough force of personality to tip the advantage in a fight.

Inspiration Bonus

Charisma of 16 or higher. (Str+Cha)

There are two ways in which the Inspiration Bonus may be used. When engaging a foe or foes, The Charismatic rolls their Fast Talk skill. A success indicates that the character is intimidating, disarmingly clever or distracting enough to use their Inspiration bonus instead of the standard damage bonus.

When leading warriors into battle, The Charismatic may rouse their troops using an Oratory roll. If successful, the troops may use The Charismatic’s Charisma score to calculate their damage bonus. This lasts a full ten rounds or until the troops experience poor fortunes in combat. At that time, The Charismatic may roll another Oratory roll to rally the troops. This Oratory roll does not need to conform to the timeframe usual for an Oratory roll.

[RosenMcStern]

That could work also as a variant of Martial Arts. Assume your "Finesse" skill can only be used with thrusting weapons doing 1d6+1 or less damage, and forces you to forfeit your STR-based damage bonus. This would make its use different from damage bonus, as I doubt an untrained fighter would be able to make use of a DEX-based bonus, whereas this skill gives a character with DEX 18 and STR 15 a +1d6 bonus when using a dagger even if he has never been in a fight before.

[Puck]

Fantastic Idea !

[Chaot]

That could work also as a variant of Martial Arts. Assume your "Finesse" skill can only be used with thrusting weapons doing 1d6+1 or less damage, and forces you to forfeit your STR-based damage bonus. This would make its use different from damage bonus, as I doubt an untrained fighter would be able to make use of a DEX-based bonus, whereas this skill gives a character with DEX 18 and STR 15 a +1d6 bonus when using a dagger even if he has never been in a fight before.

Yes. One way in which I see these rules as being useful is with the conceit that the character is a 'hero' and so combat operates a bit outside of the standard. The Intellect doesn't have to be a master combatant to make use of their Acuity bonus but their intelligence does make them a better fighter. Combat skill and raw talent are separate things. While not necessarily realist, it's kinda fun.

Because I developed these while using Elric!, damage bonus holds across the board regardless of weapon types. So in the case of Finesse, the trade off is striking first with a decent damage bonus but slightly lower weapon damage and lower hit points. Thus far I haven't experienced any real concern about 'balance.' I would like to put it through it's paces with systems where crush, impale and slash are determined differently as well as systems where different weapons types are more effective against different armor types.

Fantastic Idea !

Thanks!

[ORtrail]

So I changed it. Damage Bonus was broken down into Brawn (Str+Siz) and Finesse (Str+Dex). Brawn is used to power and leverage your way through a situation and is suitable to any weapon type. Finesse is good for small and medium weapons, where placement and speed can be more important than leverage.

A simple change and I like it. Giving the players more freedom to create characters and not having them feel like they are penalized by the system for not following a certain creation path.

This actually reminds me that I've wanted to experiment with the Damage Bonus chart for BRP. I would like to try a more gradual, progressive bonus along with a simplified weapon damage range. I'll share what I was thinking -then you can tell me why it won't work.

[table=width: 500, class: outer_border, align: left]

[tr]

[td](STR + SIZ or DEX)[/td] [td]Damage Bonus[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]2-12[/td] [td] -2 levels[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]13-16 [/td] [td]-1 level[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]17-23[/td] [td] None[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]24-27[/td] [td] +1 level[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]28-31[/td] [td]+2 levels[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]32-35[/td] [td]+3 levels[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

And so on.... There being a 1D2 added (or subtracted) to damage per level. Weapons would range in damage from 1D4 for very small ones/improvised weapons (small knife, rock, chain), to 1D6 for small weapons (large knife/dagger, slingstone, low quality bow), while standard weapons would be 1D8 (swords, maces, spears, bows) and large weapons do 1D10 (great sword, poleaxe, two handed spear, heavy crossbow).

For unarmed combat damage, my first thought is a base 1D4, with a 1D6 base for any kind of training (boxing or Kung Fu for example) if your skill level is above 60%. Which brings me to my idea about adding another bonus for those with very high skill levels. Add 10% of skill level above 50% to the Damage Bonus chart. For example, a Spartan with STR 14 and SIZ 11 does 1D10 with his spear (instead of just 1D8) with his one level bonus, but if he had an 80% skill rating he would do 1D12 (or 2D6 if you want). That 80% would be 30 over the 50% skill level, so 3 points added his STR/SIZ for a +2 level damage bonus.

That Spartan would do 1D10 unarmed combat damage with an 80% skill rating and his STR/SIZ bonus. Which seems a bit much, and he gets a skill bonus TWICE (from 1D4 to 1D6 and then his 3 pts added for skill level). Well, minus one bonus level for missle weapons and unarmed combat then? So back to a 1D8 damage unarmed for our Spartan

First time I put this "down on paper" as it were, so forgive any bad math and silly errors. I do like the idea of highly skilled combatants getting a possible damage bonus though, not just hitting more often, but in more critical areas.

[Chaot]

Howdy ORtrail.

Funnily enough, I've played with something similar! When I get some time, I'll put my thoughts on it down here.

[Atgxtg]

The only real worries are:

1) Multiple D2s will eliminate glancing blows. Sobody with a STR+SIZ of 36 is going to roll 4D2 and get a minimum of +4 to damage. Bad if PCs have to face trolls. Worse if PCs have to face bears (+11d2), Hopeless if PCs have to face dragons (+35d2).

I suggest you use the progression from Elric!:+1D2/+1D4/+1D6/+1D8/+1D10/+1D10+1D2/+1D10+1D4/etc. It will give you a smoother progression, and allow the PCs a chance to soak some hits from big creatures.

2) The progression is faster than in BRP. +16 points is worth +4D2 (or +1D8 Elric! progression) instead of +1D6. So you are slowly ramping up the total damage. Past a certain point the monsters and animals will be doing more damage to your PCs. This will make giants, dragons, and dinosaurs more nasty, but won't affect most creatures.

[ORtrail]

I should clarify that I wasn't thinking of adding multiple 1D2 rolls per bonus level. You get the equivalent to it. So a 1D4 for two levels, a 1D6 for three levels, etc. I'd probably have players use just one dice whenever possible (rolling 1D12 instead of 2D6 for example) but no more than two dice would be needed for most characters.

Let me add a bit more: My thinking was to add more bonus levels compared to the old BRP Damage Bonus chart, but at a smaller progression (1D2 in effect).

Edited August 24, 2012 by ORtrail

[Chaot]

d2 progression

If you walk up the die types and add a +1 between steps you get this

Which is a little smoother. Or you can go with the progression that Atgxtg. If you decide to go the d2 route and the spacing of increases just remember that you're going to be dealing with hits that both do higher minimum damage and higher maximum damage. As Atgxtg said, big beasties are going to be SCARY.

d2s also have the issue in that they are not AS simple for the player to roll. I tried it years ago and found that almost every time they had to roll a d2 I would have to say, roll d4, 1-2 equals 1, 3-4 equals 2.

All of that is really just crunching the numbers until you see something that appeals to you though.

As far as weapon damage goes, I think that's a great simplification. I have two ideas that I haven't really tested yet, but fall into a similar path.

1d4 for small, 1d6 for medium, 1d8 for large and 1d10 for really large is great to run with as is, I think. Then I thought it would be neat to classify the weapons into damage type and armor into protection type and adjust weapon damage up or down one step depending on armor type. Something that adds a second layer of complexity so that the players have a dilemma about weapon choice. If there's no dilemma, they are going to just choose the one that does more damage. Plus, it's fun to weigh options and gratifying when choices pay off.

On to the second part, what happens, I think, when you tie damage bonus increases directly to combat skill is that damage output escalates very quickly. This is fine if it is what you are looking for, but it makes highly skilled foes much more dangerous and it makes challenging the PCs without killing them harder.

Awhile ago I was looking at the MP for Demon Summoning table in Elric!, the one where it shows how much a magic point can buy in skill percentage and damage. I was thinking, what if you just got rid of weapon damage and based damage on combat skill? Kind of as a really light system, you know? It was a way of reemphasizing equipment and focusing on character concept. Sort of, "yes, he fights with a metal yo-yo, but he's so good with the thing he'll take your head off" sort of thing.

It didn't sit quite right because of what I mentioned above. When base damage output is directly tied to skill it creates pronounced power discrepancies. I still want to revisit the concept though and maybe allow two tracks, one to improve combat skill and one to increase damage output. I just haven't honed into something I like yet.

But!

Do it and see what happens. BRP's a strange beast and I think there's some serious promise in pursuing your ideas.

[Chaot]

I should clarify that I wasn't thinking of adding multiple 1D2 rolls per bonus level.

I should refresh before I post. I think smoothing out the Damage Bonus table is a good thing.

[ORtrail]

Then I thought it would be neat to classify the weapons into damage type and armor into protection type and adjust weapon damage up or down one step depending on armor type. Something that adds a second layer of complexity so that the players have a dilemma about weapon choice. If there's no dilemma, they are going to just choose the one that does more damage. Plus, it's fun to weigh options and gratifying when choices pay off.

I used this idea with a variant of BRP years ago. For a time travel/dimension jumping game I called "Multiverse". Remember that the WoW version of Superworld divided damage types into "Kinectic, Radiation, and E-magnetic" so I split up the kinetic attacks into "Primitive" (fist, sword, club, bow, etc.) and "Projectile" (which covered gunpowder or slug thrower weapons). Lasers would fall under "Radiation" and electrical attacks under "E-magnectic".

Chainmail was good for 5 pts versus Primitive and 2 pts against the other types, while a Kevlar vest was good for 4 pts versus Projectile and 2 pts versus the rest. Sci-fi armor like Mesh Armorplast were good for 4 pts all around. It worked okay, but once you start down that road? What about cold or fire attacks? A fireman jacket should be good against fire damage, but it won't slow a bullet very well. A kevlar vest is poor versus an edged weapon, but would absorb a club hit better, and so on. So split "Primitive" into "Edged" and "Blunt"? Where does it end? Finding that balance between game system "crunch" and ease of play can be tough.

Now the game setting would make a difference, as a game set during the Crusader period could just deal with dividing up primitive weapon types into edged and blunt. Add one more type for a Muskateer era game, "gunpowder", and that is still not bad. A modern or high tech setting gets messy quickly though. In the end I just learned to live with four types of damage/armor and the players never seemed to mind.

On to the second part, what happens, I think, when you tie damage bonus increases directly to combat skill is that damage output escalates very quickly. This is fine if it is what you are looking for, but it makes highly skilled foes much more dangerous and it makes challenging the PCs without killing them harder.

Well, with what I proposed earlier (10% of skill rating over 50), even highly skilled characters won't be getting much more than a 1D2/1D4 damage bonus due to weapon skill. Clearly an advantage, but not overwhelming.

Emad the Persian Assassin travels about as a merchant and is deadly with his dagger (STR 13 SIZ 11 DEX 14 Dagger 95%). Emad will use his STR/DEX of course, for a Damage Bonus of 1D2, but add in his 5 pts (rounded) for his skill rating and he jumps up to a 1D6 bonus. Thus Emad does 1D12 (2d6) with his dagger (base 1D6 plus 1D6 bonus). More than a match for the typical guard he might encounter even though Emad is hardly a physical specimen. On the other hand, he can grab a scimtar (70% skill rating) and do the same 1D12 damge (STR/DEX of 27 plus 2 pts for skill rating). His chance to hit/parry would clearly be effected though.

A second example would be Deiphobus the Arcadian, an Olympic pankration competitor. Same stats/skill level as Emad. Deiphobus does a base 1D6 unarmed combat damage plus 1D2 (1D2 for stats, 1D2 for skill bonus of 5pts minus one level for unarmed combat). Call it 1D8 then. Four years later Deiphobus has a STR of 16 and is doing 1D10 in damage.

Still better to have a weapon in hand, but Deiphobus can take down the average unarmed man very quickly.

Awhile ago I was looking at the MP for Demon Summoning table in Elric!, the one where it shows how much a magic point can buy in skill percentage and damage. I was thinking, what if you just got rid of weapon damage and based damage on combat skill? Kind of as a really light system, you know? It was a way of reemphasizing equipment and focusing on character concept. Sort of, "yes, he fights with a metal yo-yo, but he's so good with the thing he'll take your head off" sort of thing.

It didn't sit quite right because of what I mentioned above. When base damage output is directly tied to skill it creates pronounced power discrepancies. I still want to revisit the concept though and maybe allow two tracks, one to improve combat skill and one to increase damage output. I just haven't honed into something I like yet.

But!

Do it and see what happens. BRP's a strange beast and I think there's some serious promise in pursuing your ideas.

Another interesting idea, Chaot. I agree tying damage to skill level could get really wacky if skill is the primary factor. I do want skill to count as a bonus though. If the lesson we come away with here is that you don't trifle with highly skilled and physically fit foes? I think the game system is doing its job.

After looking at this, I realized Emad and Deiphobus could also use SIZ instead of DEX for a damage bonus, but if we assume both are an average SIZ of 10 the DEX is the only way to go. It would also matter if the GM decided that only SIZ can be used for heavy weapons like a two-handed war hammer. I would probably let it slide myself, as speed is ALWAYS an advantage, whatever the weapon.

One more edit: I had a note here about being able to parry down just one weapon level (a longsword can parry a greatsword, but a dagger won't work, and you can parry a longsword with a dagger, but not with a small knife). Common sense should be the guide here, but as a general rule the "one weapon level down" should work?

Edited August 24, 2012 by ORtrail
More notes

[Chaot]

On Damage Categories.

It worked okay, but once you start down that road?

Yeah... I see your point. That could get really messy quickly.

Now the game setting would make a difference, as a game set during the Crusader period could just deal with dividing up primitive weapon types into edged and blunt.

When I was fiddling about with it I was looking directly at the HarnMaster armor tables, so slash, crush, impale and fire (or whatever they're called in HarnMaster) and the goal was to use it with a fantasy system. Thinking about it though, it's inadequate to really cover all possibilities and probably easier to refer to spot rules to determine that stuff.

Damage Bonus and Combat skill stuff

Emad the Persian Assassin *snip*

Ahh, yeah, I see. Yeah, that's a pretty slick hack. I can dig it. It's certainly a way to do it.

Another interesting idea, Chaot. I agree tying damage to skill level could get really wacky if skill is the primary factor. I do want skill to count as a bonus though. If the lesson we come away with here is that you don't trifle with highly skilled and physically fit foes? I think the game system is doing its job.

Which I think your system does well, actually, now that I've digested it.

One more edit: I had a note here about being able to parry down just one weapon level (a longsword can parry a greatsword, but a dagger won't work, and you can parry a longsword with a dagger, but not with a small knife). Common sense should be the guide here, but as a general rule the "one weapon level down" should work?

Yeah, that makes sense. Elric! uses a system of closing. If you've got a small weapon against a long weapon you want to work yourself through their guard. Once your there, you can attack with your small weapon while your opponent has to put distance between you in order to bring their weapon back into play. It works well enough, but has only really come into play in my games when a player had a demon dagger. Daggers aren't often trained high as they have such a low damage base.

It's sad, but if there's nothing else factoring into the choice, that's a logical decision for the player to make. That's one of the reasons why I was playing with divorcing damage from weapon type.

But I'm moving into realms where I've only made rough sketches and broad strokes.

[Zit]

Which brings me to my idea about adding another bonus for those with very high skill levels. Add 10% of skill level above 50% to the Damage Bonus chart. For example, a Spartan with STR 14 and SIZ 11 does 1D10 with his spear (instead of just 1D8) with his one level bonus, but if he had an 80% skill rating he would do 1D12 (or 2D6 if you want). That 80% would be 30 over the 50% skill level, so 3 points added his STR/SIZ for a +2 level damage bonus.

This rule increases the chances to make a higher amount of damage with a better skill. Isn't it actually what special and criticals more or less already do?

[Chaot]

Yes, they do something similar I would say. So does adding a martial arts skill. But it's fun to come up with alternate systems and see how they play out. When it doesn't work out it goes back into the pile to gestate and get pulled out again.

When I was reading ORtrail's system here I was thinking about how I might use it. I was thinking about how it might fit in with a magic martial order, thinking particularly about the Taken from Black Company. It would also be good in campaign settings where one wants an even more pronounced difference between skilled and non skilled combatant.

[Atgxtg]

A simplification to this approach would be to use Damace Classes (DC).

Swiping the demon table from Elric! for the DCs, since it is about the same as the streamlined damage bonus.

DC1=1D2

DC2=1D4

DC3=1D6

DC4=1D8

DC5=1D10

DC6+1D10+1D2 (or 2D6)

DC7=1D10+1D4

DC8=1D10+1D6 (or 2D8)

DC9+1D10+1D8

DC10+2D10

etc.

Now, you can treat damage modfiers as DC shifts, either directly to the weapon's damage rating (i.e. a club that does 1D6 damage with a +2DC shift would do 1D10), as a seperate damage bonus (A +2DC damage bonus would be +1D4), or as the base damage rating, adjusted by weapon used (i.e. a guy with STR+SIZ 24 would be DC 6 and do 1D10+1D2 damage. A club would have a -1 DC shift, while a broadsword would have a +0 or +1 shift).

Using DCs could greatly simplify handling adjustments for weapon vs. armor, attack type (kinetic thermal, etc.) or skill (i.e. each 20% of skill could be worth +1DC, or you could average a fraction of skill with the weapon DC).

[ORtrail]

Yeah, that makes sense. Elric! uses a system of closing. If you've got a small weapon against a long weapon you want to work yourself through their guard. Once your there, you can attack with your small weapon while your opponent has to put distance between you in order to bring their weapon back into play. It works well enough, but has only really come into play in my games when a player had a demon dagger. Daggers aren't often trained high as they have such a low damage base.

It's sad, but if there's nothing else factoring into the choice, that's a logical decision for the player to make. That's one of the reasons why I was playing with divorcing damage from weapon type.

But I'm moving into realms where I've only made rough sketches and broad strokes.

Ah, yes, closing. This does scream for an adjustment to combat in regards to who strikes first. I would not want to be the guy with a dagger trying to get close enough to an alert foe armed with a spear. At the very least, the spear wielder should get first attack. An Inititive Roll bonus for reach advantage (+5?) would be the simplest approach. For DEX Strike Rank, uh, go up (down actually) one level?

This rule increases the chances to make a higher amount of damage with a better skill. Isn't it actually what special and criticals more or less already do?

More or less, but NOT consistently -which is what I wanted. A highly skilled character knows he will be rolling better damage than the typical city guard, not just hoping the rolls show that. This is also a good time to confess I have house-ruled Critical Hits for years as 10% of skill. Either you have a normal success or a critical. This started when I had a new RPG group of three newbies, and since it was all new to them the "10%" rule was very quick and easy for them to grasp and calculate at a glance of the (wierd) dice roll. Through a Superworld, a Multiverse, and a Pulp campaign over the next couple years I just never bothered to go back to the RAW (rules as written).

A simplification to this approach would be to use DamaGe Classes (DC).

Swiping the demon table from Elric! for the DCs, since it is about the same as the streamlined damage bonus.

DC1=1D2

DC2=1D4

DC3=1D6

DC4=1D8

DC5=1D10

DC6+1D10+1D2 (or 2D6)

DC7=1D10+1D4

DC8=1D10+1D6 (or 2D8)

DC9+1D10+1D8

DC10+2D10

etc.

Now, you can treat damage modfiers as DC shifts, either directly to the weapon's damage rating (i.e. a club that does 1D6 damage with a +2DC shift would do 1D10), as a seperate damage bonus (A +2DC damage bonus would be +1D4), or as the base damage rating, adjusted by weapon used (i.e. a guy with STR+SIZ 24 would be DC 6 and do 1D10+1D2 damage. A club would have a -1 DC shift, while a broadsword would have a +0 or +1 shift).

Using DCs could greatly simplify handling adjustments for weapon vs. armor, attack type (kinetic thermal, etc.) or skill (i.e. each 20% of skill could be worth +1DC, or you could average a fraction of skill with the weapon DC).

Appreciate the input Atgxtg. I would prefer to leave as much of the BRP sytem "intact" and just tweak some things versus a radical change. That said, I am learning toward a way to make most weapons "all the same". In other words, you can pick most any weapon and not get penalized in damage capability or other ways that make it clear that there are only a couple weapons characters should be using. If a player wants his character to walk around wearing a lion skin and using a wooden club like Heracles of old (and despite the arguments we could make that "prove" a longsword is a better weapon) I'd rather they could play that character and not get dinged (or just a slight ding) by the game system.

[Atgxtg]

It's isn't that radical a change. Basically it is the smoothed damage progression, simplified. And both Pendragon and SPQR use something similar.

As far as weapons, go. THey aren't all the same. But BRP doesn't track some of the differences. For example, a thrusting shortsword doesn't cut as well as a broadsword, but it thrusts just as well (if not better) and you can make about 2 or 3 thrusts in the times it takes to swing the blade.

If you want to make most weapons the same, go the Pendragon route and give each character a damage rating that they use as thier default. Something like DC+(STR+SIZ)/4, on the DC table I put up. So an average STR 11, SIZ 13 person would be DC 6 or 1D10+1D2, statically about the same as with a shortsword in BRP (1D6+1+1D4).

If you want to differitate between weapons and tvarious advatages, that is where the DC mods could be nice.