Deep Magic dislikes

[Stoatbringer]

With the advanced magic supplement republishing The Unknown East "Spheres and Runes style magic, is there any way to stop, or limit, the hellishly huge progression in INT and POW players will get using it?

[BMonroe]

With the advanced magic supplement republishing The Unknown East "Spheres and Runes style magic, is there any way to stop, or limit, the hellishly huge progression in INT and POW players will get using it?

This was never an issue in the games I've run in the past. Tell me about your experience; I'll see if modification is necessary.

[Al.]

With the advanced magic supplement republishing The Unknown East "Spheres and Runes style magic, is there any way to stop, or limit, the hellishly huge progression in INT and POW players will get using it?

The way I did done do it was

Start with 1d8 Spheres and/or Runes

Each counts as 1 towards Int limit (not 8 I think as RAW)

The (almost universally admired) house rules about replaying 4 to 1 with 4 to 1 on the roll table

But casting a spell/effect where the caster knows Rune and Sphere only costs 1 MP

The net effect is "about the same" without the temptation for me to put huge values for Int and Pow for NPC Sorcerers or PCs to boost their characters likewise.

Al

[Stoatbringer]

This was never an issue in the games I've run in the past. Tell me about your experience; I'll see if modification is necessary.

If you're playing a long term campaign the INT and POW of sorcerors will get excessive, due to successful resistance table rolls. I wasn't too impressed by the NPCs Drinij Bara and Sorana having respectively INT 36 and POW 51, and INT 40 and POW 57 as their characteristic rolls would be over the 100% mark.

[Billwarrilow]

Hi guys

I am perplexed - I thought INT impossible to increase ( except by rare magical means), and POW limited to species minimum and max (21 for humans, 26 for elves)

This pretty much nails all deep magicians to only one sphere and glyph unless there is a rule mechanism for open ended POW and INT?

We are proposing as a workaround that deep magicians can have up to 32 INT (4 sphere/glyph in total), with any INT over species maximum only counting for deep magic ( very high INT has a disproportionate effect on skills, and learning to memorise stuff shouldn't make you fight or notice stuff better IMHO).

As for POW, you need a maximum to calculate chance of increase - we are proposing to use the elven species maximum - 26 POW gives you some significant gravitas without overwhelming the other players.

? How have others tried to make this work?

Bill

[Chaot]

Both Int and Pow can be raised via the Resistance Roll as per page 53 in the main rules.  As per page 12, both Int and Pow do not have a cap.

[Chaot]

As for limiting increase, the rules state that the Pow : Pow (or Int : Int) roll needed to increase the stat has to be in a dangerous situation and against an enemy with a higher stat that the PC.  These are pretty limiting factors right there.

[Billwarrilow]

Ok - on page 186 of BRP the characteristic increase of INT is " by rare magical means". ? What rule book / edition are you quoting? I would love to know, because deep magic doesn't appear brp compatible without tweaking as far as I can see....

Bill the puzzled

[Billwarrilow]

In the same book, it says that human INT. & POW are without upper limit(!)

So - the feeling is so long as a resistance roll has been made at less than 50% chance of success, an increase in the relevant stat is in order?

[SDLeary]

Ok - on page 186 of BRP the characteristic increase of INT is " by rare magical means". ? What rule book / edition are you quoting? I would love to know, because deep magic doesn't appear brp compatible without tweaking as far as I can see....

Bill the puzzled

 

He is quoting Magic World. Things changed a bit for this focused Sword and Sorcery version. Its based on Elric 5e

 

SDLeary

[Chaot]

Ah, I see the disconnect.  I'm quoting the Magic World book, which does have a few different rules options from the Big Gold Book.  The subsystems in Advanced Sorcery can easily be run with the main BRP book but were written with an eye towards the MW flavor.

 

Increasing a stat by way of Resistance Table requires four things be in place.  1.  It's a dangerous fight.  2. The opponent has a higher stat then the character trying to increase their stat. 3. The character trying to increase their stat succeeds against the more powerful opponent. 4.  The character trying to increase their stat rolls under their species natural maximum for the stat (actually, 21 in the rules as writ.  I'm extrapolating a bit when I assert that it would be a roll of 21> for humans and 26> for elves.

 

So the real limiting factor for a powerful mage is finding someone more powerful to beat.

 

 

Of course, when I really think about it, this whole thing screams Wizards' Duel to me!

[seneschal]

If you're playing a long term campaign the INT and POW of sorcerors will get excessive, due to successful resistance table rolls. I wasn't too impressed by the NPCs Drinij Bara and Sorana having respectively INT 36 and POW 51, and INT 40 and POW 57 as their characteristic rolls would be over the 100% mark.

I dunno.  It reinforces the local mage's contention that he really is smarter than your character.  Perhaps Gandalf and Merlin were so mysterious because, like Sherlock Holmes and Stephen Hawking, they were actually mentally five or more steps ahead of everyone around them. 

[Billwarrilow]

thank you for the information and guidance.  Is there any canon guidance on Deep Magic familiars? I have a vague recollection that the familiar needs to be SIZ 4 or less....and unlike the usual Sorcery familiars that require a donation of siz/int/etc to make an incomplete creature complete, the Deep Magic rules suggest this process is linked to the Fauna glyph and so relates to mundane creatures (i.e. no demon or elemental familiars).  ? what about a Griffin familiar, or a horse, or hunting dog/cat?

 

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on how to handle this!

 

Bill

[tooley1chris]

Personally for a larger or unique familiar I'd make the player sacrifice permanent POW points depending on familiar, but can quote no rule.

[Billwarrilow]

I wondered if there was some place where suitable creatures for use as familiars was specified.  I seem to recall a phrase to the effect of "SIZ less than 4".  A basilisk - small, lethal, high POW - would definitely make the most desirable familiar for the deep magic kick-ass magician!  

 

I would be tempted to let the player have the animal of their choice - "a tiger? sure!" - and then make their lives hell with the practicality of feeding it, preventing it from entering inns/cities/palaces, etc (no sane guard would let such an obviously lethal predator into his town/palace etc).  Not to mention the droppings, coughing up furballs, and other practical issues (tigers don't travel long distances, snooze a lot, etc - so any journey you'd need a cart to schlep your familiar with you!).   A useful beast of burden (horse, mule, griffin) has similar issues with not being able to be alongside you all the time.

 

a small critter - gecko, cat, rat, frog, chihuahua, basilisk - much easier to include in your baggage, so perhaps most practical.  But I guess I am not against a player who really wants to take something unusual on (mammoth, anyone? ostrich?) as a familiar.

 

The Deep Magic familiar does appear to be substantially different from that "incomplete creature" in RQ3.

 

any other house rules/approaches out there?

[seneschal]

But see, a mammoth would conveniently ignore those annoying city guards, forcing its way through the gates to reach the heaps of fruit in the marketplace.  It's a familiar, a means of transportation, a key to the king's capitol, and a tool for urban renewal all in one.  Ditch that D&D nonsense about losing a spell once you've used it.  An elephant never forgets.  And you can fund your magical research by selling varnished dried mammoth plops as novelty gifts -- or use the dung as emergency fuel in the treeless wastes of Kazel-Hruum.  What's not to like?  

[Billwarrilow]

not so much "subtle and quick to anger" as "make way for the Great Phandaal!", eh?  I think I am coming round to letting players suffer the curse of "beware of what you wish for"!

 

just think of the uproar from the dung-collection guild, the fruit-sellers guild, no hope of being incognito....but you could have a howdah on the back of your familiar and travel in STYLE!  I can see the purpose in quests to exotic locales in search of suitable familiar creatures - monkeys, flying squirrels, kraken (?!), vampire bats (hey, you need to exchange blood to get a new body!), gorillas (dress him up and call him Igor), velociraptors, perhaps a walktapus?

 

 

great post, seneschal - put a smile on my day!

[Stoatbringer]

 

 

 

a small critter - gecko, cat, rat, frog, chihuahua, basilisk - much easier to include in your baggage, so perhaps most practical.  But I guess I am not against a player who really wants to take something unusual on (mammoth, anyone? ostrich?) as a familiar.

 

 

Basilisk?  Now that would be a scenario to see.

[Stoatbringer]

I dunno.  It reinforces the local mage's contention that he really is smarter than your character.  Perhaps Gandalf and Merlin were so mysterious because, like Sherlock Holmes and Stephen Hawking, they were actually mentally five or more steps ahead of everyone around them. 

And if the local mage really is smarter than the PCs, why are they even in the scenario? Why aren't they down at the local inn eyeing up the serving wenches and getting drunk while Sherlock Hawking, the sorceror supreme, anticipates all the threats to the locality and deals with them before they become anywhere near dangerous?