Prax Beast-Riders: How anti-Horse?

[g33k]

Over on the "trade & markets" thread, topics of horse-trade, smuggling, anti-Horse bias, & similar issues on the plains of Prax has come up, leading me to wonder...

Is there a definitive canonical description of just HOW anti-Horse the nomads are?  I know that they won't ride/herd horses themselves, and the horses of the Pol-Joni are PART of what the Beast-Riders find aggravating; but is there a moderately-reliable normative "state" of anti-horse bias?  Can (FrEx) a party of 5 horsemen (upon encountering a large warband of Waha worshippers) expect... to just have some negatives on all social rolls?  To have really strong negatives?  To be forced to pay a heavy toll?  To face possible (or likely?) slaughter of their horses?

Obviously, Beast-Riders will have quite a bit of individual variance:  a Storm Bull might be more-inclined to violence; a badly-hung-over Nomad will be grumpier & less-forgiving than one who is feeling happy & well; a crackpot shaman may drive his clan to almost any weird extreme; etc.  But is there any broadly-presumptive "norm" in canon?

 

[Charles]

25 minutes ago, g33k said:

Is there a definitive canonical description of just HOW anti-Horse the nomads are?

In my opinion, very, very, very anti-horse. If a Waha led nomad party comes across a weaker party of horse-riders, they will immediately (usually) try to destroy the horses and kill/enslave the blasphemous riders. The horses are destroyed, not captured or eaten. A Storm-Bull led party likely do not care so much but might try to kill, just on general principles.

Of course, as always, there may well be situational modifiers that prevent that sort of reaction. For example, the Pol-Joni people forced their way in by repeatedly trouncing the nomads.

I'm not sure about the reaction of an Eiritha led party. It could go either way. For example, I understand that some Pol-Joni Ernalda priestesses are welcomed at the Paps. On the other hand, Eiritha may reflexively support Waha.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Charles

[M Helsdon]

31 minutes ago, g33k said:

Is there a definitive canonical description of just HOW anti-Horse the nomads are? 

So anti-horse that it was necessary for the ancient Pavisites to 'disguise' their horses as zebra.

 

[Freddie]

Canonically, we have:

"Horses are taboo amongst Praxians and are hated by all who follow Waha. Most Praxians will never touch a horse, not even to eat it. Most Praxians kill any horse they can. The Pol-Joni are hated because they ride horses, and feared because they are strong enough to force themselves onto the plains despite the enmity of all other tribes." (GtG Vol 1 sidebar p.30)

"“Under what meager conditions would one allow a horse to live in one’s land?” [Joraz Khyrem 800-855ST] asked a priestess of the Paps one day. “In bondage,” she spoke, “Broken from kin.” She spoke with the words of the Goddess. “Need they be unhealthy?” he asked. “You aid herd men and giant lizards.” “Their health I grant, within their confines.” ("Pavis Gateway to Adventure" p.41)

I've always played it pretty polarised; but as usual MGMV and indeed YGMV.

[g33k]

@Freddie -- those quotes are invaluable, thank you!  Indeed everybody's GWV (see my recent "YGWV" thread on the Morokanth...).  Here, I think, my Glorantha will hew pretty closely to canon.

Is there further (canonical) clarification on the phrase "broken from kin"?  I'm inclined to interpret this to mean "one/few horses only, no herds; any group must be of a single gender:  absolutely no chance to breed."

 

[Freddie]

I'm not aware of any specific canonical clarification. As I've always read it, the Zebra thing is about creating a not-horse that functions as a horse. Even my fairly pacific nomad in the Rpol "Three Feathered Rivals" game would have problems with horses even if alone/non-breeding.

[Freddie]

PS: However, the history of Prax is littered with conflict between the riders of horses and the riders of Eirithan mounts. On that basis I'd be surprised to find a Praxian not utterly hostile to horses who did not also exhibit other odd traits.

[Joerg]

Praxians hate horses, Orlanthi hate goats, many Heortlings hate dogs...

This doesn't make them exterminators.

 

2 hours ago, Charles said:

In my opinion, very, very, very anti-horse. If a Waha led nomad party comes across a weaker party of horse-riders, they will immediately (usually) try to destroy the horses and kill/enslave the blasphemous riders. The horses are destroyed, not captured or eaten. A Storm-Bull led party likely do not care so much but might try to kill, just on general principles.

Come now... Praxians will almost immediately attack weak-looking mule trains, ox-drawn carts accompanied by cattle herds, or walkers - if they enter the territory where the Praxians can slay them with impunity. They will try to rob and enslave them because they are strangers, without any friendly spirits in the land that they might call to help.

The taboo against eating horse flesh affects only the original beast riders. I doubt that the Pavis Survivors would keep the horse taboo when they use them for breeding their cavalry zebras. Baboons, Basmoli or Agimori will happily eat horse meat. So will native predators and scavengers.

 

2 hours ago, Charles said:

I'm not sure about the reaction of an Eiritha led party. It could go either way. For example, I understand that some Pol-Joni Ernalda priestesses are welcomed at the Paps. On the other hand, Eiritha may reflexively support Waha.

Eirithans might be more anti-horse than Waha braves. I see a possibility that horses damage the life cycle in the Chaparral - grass (or other growth) still supported by Eiritha might receive a Food Song equivalent when grazed by Eiritha-protected herds, but not when grazed by horses. (Someone would have to come up with why the donkey and its bastard offspring, the mule, fit this category, though...)

 

@M Helsdon Joraz Kyrem was the leader of a very unconventional group of Pure Horse people, willing to abandon their nomadic lifestyle for a previously undefendable area of summer fertile grazing in the Zola Fel valley. Most of the Pure Horse folk remained unchanged, sticking to the places now inhabited by the Pol Joni, where their horses could graze without problems. They persisted even after they lost the alliance of the Third Council and its dragons, and only were cast out when there was a new solar power in Prax which may have weakened their magic.

 

10 minutes ago, g33k said:

Is there further (canonical) clarification on the phrase "broken from kin"?  I'm inclined to interpret this to mean "one/few horses only, no herds; any group must be of a single gender:  absolutely no chance to breed."

Broken from kin manifests like horses breeding with donkeys - the mixed cavalry zebra offspring is as infertile as are mules and jennies. Also, their ancient deities Jardan Golden Bow and Hyalor become unavailable (Kuschile appears to remain, though). Eiritha replaces La-Ungariant.

Their meat diet changes drastically. No longer only meat horses or whatever hunting would grant them, now they become raiders of non-horse herds for meat. (Their neighbors must have loved that change... but then, their own steeds became raidable, too.) I wonder what they did with their non-golden-eye pony herds that served as meat and milk herds with their unchanged Pure Horse brethren. I guess they traded them away to these folk for other wealth that gave them a good start with the city peoples.

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Joraz Kyrem was the leader of a very unconventional group of Pure Horse people, willing to abandon their nomadic lifestyle for a previously undefendable area of summer fertile grazing in the Zola Fel valley. Most of the Pure Horse folk remained unchanged, sticking to the places now inhabited by the Pol Joni, where their horses could graze without problems. They persisted even after they lost the alliance of the Third Council and its dragons, and only were cast out when there was a new solar power in Prax which may have weakened their magic.

The Zebra Tribe/Pavis Survivors have been extant in Prax for centuries; the Pol-Joni are a recent arrival, and their limited range, in No Man's March, demonstrates how peripheral they are. The Pol-Joni are reliant upon Sartar for survival, and they've been hurting following the Lunar Occupation. The relatively large presence of Pol-Joni in the Sartar Free Army shows just how symbiotic their relationship with the Sartarites is - the latter have relied on them as a line of defence against Praxian incursions; the Pol-Joni have relied upon Sartar for their survival - easy access to metal, for example. The Pure Horse folk were eventually pushed out of Prax, which isn't too surprising given the long-standing conflict between Praxian and Pentan.

[David Scott]

This is much more complicated when you consider cross tribal societies. Pol-Joni Storm Bulls on horses will be found with any other tribal Storm Bull united in their hatred of Chaos. Other cross tribal groups include Yelmalions, Humakti, Orlanth, etc. Look at the percentage cult membership in Cults of Prax.

The Pol-Joni are a Praxian tribe that worships the Praxian Pantheon. All Praxian societies and cults are represented except the Seven Mothers. They have Waha Khans, Eiritha Priestesses, Storm Khans. All of these will be welcome at the Paps. There are a few Pol-Joni Priestesses at the Paps. They are a small tribe, but certainly have representation, Waha and Eiritha give them a place in the Wastes, but that means they have to do as the others do - Raid or be Raided.

The horse hating depends on who you are, what you can get out of it, it's a holdover from the PHP invaders. 

[TRose]

 Issaries bred mules so they can tell the Nomads that they are not horses and tell Horse tribesman they are horse kin, if I remember right. I think Donkeys and burros would be OK in Prax . The only Horse like animal I understand that found in large number in Prax is the Ass, plenty of which can be found in the Sable tribe.

Edited May 25, 2016 by TRose

[David Scott]

On 25 May 2016 at 7:44 PM, Joerg said:

Joraz Kyrem was the leader of a very unconventional group of Pure Horse people, willing to abandon their nomadic lifestyle for a previously undefendable area of summer fertile grazing in the Zola Fel valley.

The basis for Joraz's actions are noted in Pavis: GtA:

Quote

Pavis entered into a magical compact with Waha and the city was established, but Joraz still had to deal directly with the barbarians. He knew of the antagonism the nomads had for horses, for there was similar antagonism wherever he had gone. He knew he could not defeat their timeless ignorance, so he sought to ensure continued goodwill among the nomads ... Joraz was a man of the Sun, as were all the Pure Horse people in those days. Yet he was different, too: changed by the mix of magics offered by the Empire of the Wyrm’s Friends where he and Pavis had studied and became friends.

This was about power politics. Joraz was clearly a powerful magician and he sought to cement his power in the area. Looking at what he would of had to have done to create the Zebra tribe reveals his power. He sought to pair his human tribe with a herd beast tribe that had no human counterpart. We know there are zebra priestesses at the Paps, so all he has to do is convince the Zebra priestess to go back to the Green Age, and conceive a child there (with the blessing of the Mostrespected elder). There she is the protectress and once the child is born he is clearly the founder. To add to the magics she gives birth to twins - one a human, the other a zebra...

[KeithN]

If anyone is interested I re-themed the card game Credo so that it represented the creed of the Horse People in Prax, as they chose to be either Zebra Riders, Pure Horse People or some sort of mish mash of anti Waha attitudes

 

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, KeithN said:

If anyone is interested I re-themed the card game Credo so that it represented the creed of the Horse People in Prax, as they chose to be either Zebra Riders, Pure Horse People or some sort of mish mash of anti Waha attitudes

Interested. Your re-themed games are something of a legend...

 

 

[KeithN]

Joerg  - I'm looking for a soft copy. In the meantime, in summary, if you know Chris Gidlow's Credo, which generates a Credo of Christianity, in this game we create a credo of the Horse People - which gives them opinions on various things. for example

WE ARE: the Golden Horse Tribe, the Pure Horse Nation, ..subjects of the Luminous Stallion King, ..the descendants of Mother Horse, ..the sons of Hyalor Horsebreaker, ...the vassals of the Imperial Sun, ...the children of the Star Captains, ...nomads who travel the plains. 

HORSES: make us great, ..are our lifeblood, ..are draconic, ..are descendants of Hippoi,...Hyalor made a sacred bond with HORSES, ..Our herds make us great whether HORSES or not, 

HERD ANIMALS: Other HERD ANIMALS are not horses, are only fit to be hunted, are only beasts, are not horses, Demi birds and Quake beasts make fine HERD ANIMALS

WAR ZEBRA: ..survives in the dreadful wastes, is like a horse, is a new type of horse, is not a horse, Delecti could create something better than a WAR ZEBRA, ...is a descendant of Hippoi, 

ANIMAL NOMADs: We despise the ...., We fear the sub-human ...., We fight the ANIMAL NOMADS whenever we can, ....kill them! kill them all!, We pity the ANIMAL NOMADS their inferior ways, Youf has defeated the ...., We hate the ....

TRADITION We must follow ....no matter what, It is ....al to obey our leaders. Our ....s are sacred, Our ....s have served us well in the pass, We obey our leaders, whatever ....says, It is our .....to slaughter our enemies, New .....for a new world, Draconic wisdom is the new .....,, We do what the stars tell us, that is our ......

..and so on for LORD PAVIS, VIRTUE, HELLSPAWN. and GROUND PEOPLE. 

 

 

[KeithN]

horsecredo.xls