Suggestions sought re: "Splitting Attacks" skill

[Aycorn]

For the unofficial "Martial Arts" rules (yes, I'm working on them), I'm trying to come up with a way to handle splitting attacks among multiple opponents.

What I'm thinking of:

There's a "Splitting Attacks" skill which can be learned

If you're using it, you can make as many attacks against different opponents in a single melee round as DEX rank or Strike Rank will allow.

Your chance to attack would be either your attack skill or your "Splitting Attacks" skill - whichever is lower.

Possibly a further penalty on each attack after the first?

Any thoughts?

[Shaira]

Why wouldn't you use the existing Splitting Attacks rules? Ie, if you have over 100% in an attack skill, you can make multiple attacks by dividing your skill to no less than 50% (so 100% would give you 2 attacks at 50%, 150% would give you 3 attacks at 50%, or two attacks at 75%, etc).

Cheers,

Sarah

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

Any thoughts?

I'm afraid your post was a little sketchy. Could you clarify with examples and a specific reason why you feel the martial arts rules are lacking?

[Claudius]

Why wouldn't you use the existing Splitting Attacks rules? Ie, if you have over 100% in an attack skill, you can make multiple attacks by dividing your skill to no less than 50% (so 100% would give you 2 attacks at 50%, 150% would give you 3 attacks at 50%, or two attacks at 75%, etc).

Cheers,

Sarah

I guess that's because he doesn't want it to be necessary to have a 100% to split an attack, because he feels the requirements are too high. But I feel the requirements are too high for a good reason, making two attacks is overpowering. That "splitting attack" skill is an überskill, way too-powerful. If you added some penalty, you'd mitigate it somewhat.

[Aycorn]

I'm afraid your post was a little sketchy. Could you clarify with examples and a specific reason why you feel the martial arts rules are lacking?

Refer back to this thread:

http://basicroleplaying.com/forum/basic-roleplaying/545-anyone-doing-martial-arts-supplement.html

[Aycorn]

I guess that's because he doesn't want it to be necessary to have a 100% to split an attack, because he feels the requirements are too high. But I feel the requirements are too high for a good reason, making two attacks is overpowering. That "splitting attack" skill is an überskill, way too-powerful. If you added some penalty, you'd mitigate it somewhat.

I'm inclined to agree with you. It's just something I'm thinking about as I go along. It may be better to leave it alone.

[Claudius]

I'm inclined to agree with you. It's just something I'm thinking about as I go along. It may be better to leave it alone.

I won't hate you for wanting to houserule BRP :innocent:, I just think that your houserule is too powerful. Besides the splitting attack skill, I'd add some penalty. For example, you've got to split your skill (as in the official rule) but you're not required to have 100% in order to do so. What do you think?

[Aycorn]

I won't hate you for wanting to houserule BRP :innocent:, I just think that your houserule is too powerful. Besides the splitting attack skill, I'd add some penalty. For example, you've got to split your skill (as in the official rule) but you're not required to have 100% in order to do so. What do you think?

Claudius - it's NOT a houserule. It's not anything right now.

I'm working through updating a rough conversion of GURPS Martial Arts to BRP, something I initially did several years ago. I'm working on it now to make it consistent with the current BRP rules.

Most of the ideas adapt to BRP quite easily. A few don't. The idea of having a skill allowing one to battle multiple opponents in a single round is one that doesn't.

Things that jut plain don't adapt well may simply get dropped. Right now, I happen to think that it might be best to simply drop the idea and stay with the traditional BRP splitting attacks rules, as outlined by Shaira.

My initial post was ONE idea I was toying with, and one that I found unsatisfactory - for exactly the same reasons you did. Nothing more. I posted here to see if anyone had, perhaps, a suggestion I liked better.

[Claudius]

OK. Fine.

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

Aycorn, I don't think you realize how sharp your responses were. People here were trying to help because you opened a thread and solicited responses to your "unofficial martial arts rules" that you were working on under the Subject: "Suggestions sought re: "Splitting Attacks" skill."

Generally it's bad form to respond in CAPS. It's a bit like shouting. Certainly nobody here knew your intention to convert GURPs or that this wasn't a house rule until you mentioned it afterwards. I hate having to point this out, but wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt that perhaps you didn't realize the impression that was made in your responses. That being said...

I must disagree with your assertion that, "The idea of having a skill allowing one to battle multiple opponents in a single round is one that doesn't [work with BRP]." As Shaira correctly noted, BRP RuneQuest and related BRP systems with combat skills over 100% have been doing so for a very, very long time. There is also an Unarmed Combat super power that could augment it further.

If you would accept this suggestion , there is already a Spot Rule for firearms called "Unaimed Shots" on page 254. It only applies to range weapons, but one could conceivably adapt it to a Brawl spot rule and name it the "Haymaker" or "Flurry" (take your pick) spot rule. In such a hypothetical house spot rule, you could double the attacks per round, but the chance to hit is reduced to 1/4 your character's skill.

Edited July 28, 2008 by FunGuyFromYuggoth

[Al.]

This may or may not be useful (clearly I hope for may) and certainly isn't what you asked for.

My current approach is to use 1 rule as written and 1 expanded from rules as written in Elric:

* 101% or better and you can split attacks (at least 50% for each attack the split must be as equal as possible)

* 101% or better and you add one extra damage die

i.e. Naseem with Melee (Brawl) 120% can either hit one target for 2d3+db or 2 targets each for 1d3+db

Whilst Myamoto with Melee (Sword) 200% can either hit one target for 2d10+1+db or upto 4 targets each for 1d10+1+db

Al

[badcat]

Something I have done successfully, with SB1-4, is to allow multiple attacks at -20% per attack in lieu of the multiple parries. That is to say, players could choose an all out attack option, but only have one defense roll, parry or dodge, in the round. An exchange of multiple defense rolls for multiple attack rolls. They would take place at -5 DEX rank per attack.

I don't think your responses were out of line in the least, Aycorn. Stick to your guns.

[RosenMcStern]

Whilst Myamoto with Melee (Sword) 200% can either hit one target for 2d10+1+db or upto 4 targets each for 1d10+1+db

The remarkable feats of Miyamoto Musashi (I just bought an illustrated book with a picture of him killing a whale with his katana - how delightful, except for the fact that I love whales almost as much as I love Musashi) are best handled in BRP by allowing him to be a master of the Martial Arts (Kenjutsu) skill rather than introducing new options than have the same effect.

[Nightshade]

I guess that's because he doesn't want it to be necessary to have a 100% to split an attack, because he feels the requirements are too high. But I feel the requirements are too high for a good reason, making two attacks is overpowering. That "splitting attack" skill is an überskill, way too-powerful. If you added some penalty, you'd mitigate it somewhat.

Actually, since the current version precludes using multiple attacks against one foe, I'm hard pressed to see how its overpowering.

[Aycorn]

I do apologize if I came off too harshly. That wasn't my intention.

I am going to say something in my defense, though. I really did think that:

"For the unofficial "Martial Arts" rules (yes, I'm working on them), I'm trying to come up with a way to handle splitting attacks among multiple opponents."

...pretty much made it clear that I was (a) working on a set of rules to handle martial arts and ( soliciting suggestions - not presenting a houserule for critique.

If it didn't, I'm sorry for any misunderstanding.

To be honest, Fun Guy, in your response it seemed like you were demanding that I somehow justify developing such a set of rules. That may not have been your intent, but that's how it looked. So that rubbed me the wrong way. Then Claudius, though well-intentioned, didn't seem to understand what I was saying. Since I was already peeved, I dashed off a needlessly harsh response.

This is pretty much a friendly list, and seems like a nice bunch of people, and I'd like to see it stay that way. It was a misunderstanding, and I didn't need to be an ogre about it.

I must disagree with your assertion that, "The idea of having a skill allowing one to battle multiple opponents in a single round is one that doesn't [work with BRP]." As Shaira correctly noted, BRP RuneQuest and related BRP systems with combat skills over 100% have been doing so for a very, very long time. There is also an Unarmed Combat super power that could augment it further.

I will look at these. I know about the "skills over 100%" - I've been an RQ guy for 20+ years. But that isn't a "skill," per se - it's more like an effect - if you're at 100%, you can do it. I'm thinking more of an actual, specific "Fight Multiple Guys At Once" skill - that one could train and develop in. Or maybe having such a skill is a bad idea. I don't know yet. I think everyone here as interesting suggestions, and worth thinking about.

When I get the whole thing written up, I expect to include a section of "stuff I couldn't quite get a handle on," and I welcome the input of others' on such topics. My hope is that this thing will be a living document, and other people may revise/add to it.

On a side note - I realize some may feel that BRP doesn't need supplemental martial arts rules - and guess what - you're right! It doesn't need them. BRP has always been excellent and Jason and Co's new book is terrific, comprehensive, as near to perfection as things get.

But I myself never really found the "Martial Arts" skill in any of it's BRP incarnations satisfying. And I liked what GURPS did with it and think it can be adapted pretty well to BRP. It isn't anything necessary - just something thats of interest - to some of us (clearly I'm not the only one, as others have expressed interest in seeing such a supplement - that's why I'm working on it and planning to post it).

For those who have no interest in such a thing, that's fine. It's easy enough to ignore any postings about it. I have no interest in the current or recently-raging "firearms" debate, but for people who are into that sort of thing....

Anyway, again, I hope my intentions are now clear and there's no hard feelings.

[Trifletraxor]

There's a "Splitting Attacks" skill which can be learned. If you're using it, you can make as many attacks against different opponents in a single melee round as DEX rank or Strike Rank will allow.

Your chance to attack would be either your attack skill or your "Splitting Attacks" skill - whichever is lower. Possibly a further penalty on each attack after the first?

Any thoughts?

If you're going to use a separate "Splitting attacks" skill, I'd suggest that when it's used, attack skill equals the lowest of your martial arts, splitting attacks and natural weapon skill, and that each new attack after the first is at -30%.

SGL.

[Al.]

The remarkable feats of Miyamoto Musashi (I just bought an illustrated book with a picture of him killing a whale with his katana - how delightful, except for the fact that I love whales almost as much as I love Musashi) are best handled in BRP by allowing him to be a master of the Martial Arts (Kenjutsu) skill rather than introducing new options than have the same effect.

I'm not sure whether I agree with you or not!

In my old age I'm trying to avoid adding yet more rules, and where possible making general cases of specifics.

If Mushashi needs Melee (Sword) and Martial Arts (Kenjutsu) then that is two skills to reference and look at rather than using split attacks for skills over 100% as written and broadening the elric extra damage for brawl over 100%with means I only need refer to one skill.

As a simulation test if Woroshi has 150% Melee (Sword) why cannot he be considered to be a master swordsman; why does he also need Martial Arts (Kenjutsu)? To clumsily rephrase another way why isn't a character with 120% in sword treated as being an expert at using that sword?

Al

[RosenMcStern]

Woroshi is certainly a master in his swordsmanship with his 120% skill. He can fight and defeat multiple opponents easily. He does not need to study and increase an additional skill to fight multiple opponents: all master swordsmen receive this as training when they reach a good level in their skill score.

However, Musashi is not only a master of sword combat with 120%+, but also knows the secret techniques taught by his school (well, actually Musashi was a school himself), which allow him to use his katana in ways even a master swordsman would not suspect. And this is represented by the Martial Arts skill (formerly Ki skills). Note that very few cultures should have access to Martial Arts techniques for swords.

[RosenMcStern]

I will look at these. I know about the "skills over 100%" - I've been an RQ guy for 20+ years. But that isn't a "skill," per se - it's more like an effect - if you're at 100%, you can do it. I'm thinking more of an actual, specific "Fight Multiple Guys At Once" skill - that one could train and develop in. Or maybe having such a skill is a bad idea. I don't know yet. I think everyone here as interesting suggestions, and worth thinking about.

I cannot see any self respecting master fighter not training in combat against multiple opponents. When you reach a certain level of expertise, you are certainly training in fighting against multiple opponents. So I think this skill is in fact only a side effect of becoming more proficient in combat techniques, and the current splitting rules already represent this.

One possible option could be allowing characters to split attacks when they are above 90%, or 80%, or whatever the GM sees fit to make the game interesting.

[deleriad]

I will look at these. I know about the "skills over 100%" - I've been an RQ guy for 20+ years. But that isn't a "skill," per se - it's more like an effect - if you're at 100%, you can do it. I'm thinking more of an actual, specific "Fight Multiple Guys At Once" skill - that one could train and develop in. Or maybe having such a skill is a bad idea. I don't know yet. I think everyone here as interesting suggestions, and worth thinking about.

I think it's perfectly valid for some genres and settings. I'm sure there is a good argument for including a powers set for martial arts for those times when you want to focus on such things. Personally I think it makes sense as part of a power set than as a 'normal' skill.

Thus you could have the power "Fight Multiple Oponents". For each X percent in this skill the user can attack and parry (or dodge) one additional opponent per round without any minuses. This power has no effect when only fighting one opponent. This power can be activated as a free action at any time during the round for a cost of 1PP and lasts until the end of the round."

This is very clearly a cinematic martial power rather than a super-duper skill and the user still must train their normal skills for attacks and parries.

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

To be honest, Fun Guy, in your response it seemed like you were demanding that I somehow justify developing such a set of rules. That may not have been your intent, but that's how it looked. So that rubbed me the wrong way. Then Claudius, though well-intentioned, didn't seem to understand what I was saying. Since I was already peeved, I dashed off a needlessly harsh response.

We all have bad days. Gods know I've had some. My short post was a question, not a challenge. I just didn't understand what you were asking b/c it referred to another thread I wasn't following. No harm done either way and no apologies necessary to me, though I feel bad for Claudius and hope he'll come back to this thread. Peace be upon you Aycorn.

Edited July 29, 2008 by FunGuyFromYuggoth

[Camillus]

Note that very few cultures should have access to Martial Arts techniques for swords.

Why would that be? Swords were important weapons in many cultures so I don't see any reason to limit availability of martial arts based on them anywhere that they are in relatively common use.

Edited July 29, 2008 by Camillus
missing word

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

This is very clearly a cinematic martial power rather than a super-duper skill and the user still must train their normal skills for attacks and parries.

There is a very cinematic martial ability everyone here has seen and is related to Aycorn's OP.

I would suggest, and you see it many martial arts media, somehow the master defeats multiple opponents by making them fight him one at a time. A lousy tactic on the part of the attackers, but a good defensive option for the solo martial artist, but usually it's against a bunch of mooks with low skill and low HP. :thumb: We've already explored the limits of splitting attacks ove 100%, so let's try something different.

Here is an idea that you can take or forget:

On p.53, there is a skill called "Command." It seems like a good abstraction of authority and one could house rule it with Martial Arts (both rolls need to be made) to intimidate NPC opponents equal or less her POW to fight one to one. Of course, you don't need to make a speech, they just have to see you in action and then you can invoke the skill. Let the first round proceed and if the solo attacker's skill is apparent, then roll for "Command."

A success means they do not fight as a team and get in each other's way or otherwise hesitate to attack as a group. So that in effect you could plow throw a small army of mooks like Bruce Lee in "Fist of Fury" or simulate the Death Dealer. Of course, this could get countervailed by a Command by an NPC master on the other side, should he or she wish it.

Edited July 29, 2008 by FunGuyFromYuggoth

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

Why would that be? Swords were important weapons in many cultures so I don't see any reason to limit availability of martial arts based on them anywhere that are in relatively common use.

I concur. I think it would depend on the discipline being taught, but not on the culture.

[RosenMcStern]

Why would that be? Swords were important weapons in many cultures so I don't see any reason to limit availability of martial arts based on them anywhere that they are in relatively common use.

Should a Viking warrior with a longsword have the same effectiveness as Miyamoto Musashi? I do not think so. Common use and mastery are not the same as knowing secret techniques. And martial arts is the latter, not simply "being very clever at using that weapon".

Note that a seasoned viking warrior with a longsword can still make mincemeat of dozens of inferior opponents. He simply is not Musashi