Suggestions sought re: "Splitting Attacks" skill

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

Should a Viking warrior with a longsword have the same effectiveness as Miyamoto Musashi? I do not think so. Common use and mastery are not the same as knowing secret techniques. And martial arts is the latter, not simply "being very clever at using that weapon".

Note that a seasoned viking warrior with a longsword can still make mincemeat of dozens of inferior opponents. He simply is not Musashi

Musashi. The man was, is, and forever a legendary swordsman. Period. He was also a writer during literate times, which helped solidify his legend.

On the battlefield, in the past century's last war involving swords, let me take you to the Philippines during the 1940s Occupation:

Secret techniques are great when you are facing somebody with a known training style who knows your usual bag of tricks and is expecting something similar, but from different cultures where you really don't know what is going to happen, you go back to basics and hope for the best. Pilipinos practicing a martial arts form called eskrima/arnis/kali regularly matched or bested Japanese sword wielding opponents. No secret techniques out in the jungle at night where rifles were limited in utility (or quantity in the case of the Pilipinos) and you should a good chance of shooting your own with a pistol. Mostly they observed that the Japanese katana relied on a very aggressive forward attack, often with a very distinct pattern. Eskrima/arnis/kali has triangulating footwork and a live hand (with dagger sometimes) besides the one holding the bolo.

They did fine.

We don't have any real record of Viking swordsmanship and it's really up to the GM to decide if the Martial Art skill should be allowed. Me, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, but make access to true masters harder to come by (Scandinavia in the Dark Ages was a sparsely populated place), but I'd put Beowulf vs. Musashi any day.

This does pick at an old BRP scab about the connection between Martial Arts skill and the normal Weapon Attack skill. My personal house rule is that any non-firearm attack skill above 76% (Expert level p.49) the player unlocks a 10% Martial Arts skill in that weapon only (if they already have Martial Arts, then ignore). This enables them to cultivate that skill or ignore it, but I'd require they go on "Dagobah" (SideQuest) and seek out a higher level master or school. If not, that Martial Art skill stays and won't advance unless and until they go off to train there.

Edited July 29, 2008 by FunGuyFromYuggoth

[Al.]

Thankyou FunGuy and Camillus that is what I was trying and failing to say.

Anybody who has trained and fought will know which bits of the target to hit with which bits of the weapon. The more experience and training (simulated by high skill IMMOO) the better an idea that they will have.

Formalised Dojos/Dojungs/Guan/Schools/Temples/whatever are simply a handy place to go and get some knowledge, instruction and training rather than have to learn it all first hand (if you live long enough).

If you absolutely have to have different named martial arts.

Martial Arts (Fencing, Gong Fu, Kenjutsu, Tyrs dance, etc) then why not pair them with but one Melee skill? That doesn't fully deal with my original wibble about a proliferation of Martial Arts skills but it might narrow down how many skills one needs to list, define and allocate %iles to.

There was a VERY old White Dwarf article which expanded upon the RQIII Martial Arts skill.

OTTOMH a roll under Martial Arts as a skill allowed:

*Getting to feet immediately (rather than 1 turn normall)

*Recover MPs or FPs more quickly (meditation)

A roll under Martial Arts and relevent skill on the same d100

*Double natural weapon damage (as per RQIII and expanded in BRP)

*Parry when unarmed

*Jump Kick (roll d10+10 Hit Location)

*Jump higher

Al

[DreadDomain]

For the unofficial "Martial Arts" rules (yes, I'm working on them), I'm trying to come up with a way to handle splitting attacks among multiple opponents.

What I'm thinking of:

There's a "Splitting Attacks" skill which can be learned

If you're using it, you can make as many attacks against different opponents in a single melee round as DEX rank or Strike Rank will allow.

Your chance to attack would be either your attack skill or your "Splitting Attacks" skill - whichever is lower.

Possibly a further penalty on each attack after the first?

Any thoughts?

Maybe an easy way to do this, and I am thinking out loud here, is to use the Martial Art skill. During the statement of intent the warrior must decide if he will use Martial Art to deliver more effective blows (as is the default use in the rule) or to strike more blows.

If he choose to deliver more blows, he attacks normally at is DEX Rank. If the roll is over the weapon skill (a failure), he fails. If the roll is under the weapon skill (a success) but over the Martial Art skill, he delivers a blow but is unable to position himself for a follow up. If he roll under both Weapon and Martial Art skills, he delivers a blow and maneuvered for a follow up that will occur 5 DEX rank later.

Five DEX rank later, apply the same logic. He will continue attacking until he fails a Martial Art skill, runs out of opponent or runs out of DEX rank.

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

OTTOMH a roll under Martial Arts as a skill allowed:

*Getting to feet immediately (rather than 1 turn normall)

On p. 202, a successful Difficult Dodge skill roll gets the prone target back on their feet without the Easy modifier to attacks against him or her. the successful Difficult Dodge roll also allows an attack action in the combat round. Alternately a combination of successful Dodge and Agility rolls accomplishes the same but does not allow the action (the Agility roll takes the action's place).

To dove-tail to your post, a reasonable house rule would let someone with the appropriate and successful Martial Arts skill to spring back and negate the Easy modifier against them and to engage in an attack action in the combat round as you suggested. I like that. Thanks. :cool:

[Camillus]

Should a Viking warrior with a longsword have the same effectiveness as Miyamoto Musashi? I do not think so. Common use and mastery are not the same as knowing secret techniques. And martial arts is the latter, not simply "being very clever at using that weapon".

Note that a seasoned viking warrior with a longsword can still make mincemeat of dozens of inferior opponents. He simply is not Musashi

I don't think that we should develop general rules from specific situations. Miyamoto Musashi was an exceptional individual, largely self taught, who lived in a time and place where it was acceptable to wander from place to place picking fights in order to hone your skill.

That does not mean that we should ignore codified methods of teaching combat with swords from other parts of the world. There's no reason to believe that those methods are inherently inferior to kenjutsu or that the Japanese had some secret skill that the rest of the world lacked.

So, in answer to your question: yes, a sufficiently talented viking warrior could exist who could take out Musashi and we should allow not place barriers in the way of that.

[RosenMcStern]

So, in answer to your question: yes, a sufficiently talented viking warrior could exist who could take out Musashi and we should allow not place barriers in the way of that.

No doubt, although I suppose a viking master of the sword would rather use berserking techniques to ignore pain. And the legend grown about the samurais (or the Bogatyrs, FWIW) has increased the hype about their skills. But I am yet unconvinced that simply going up in skill is the equivalent of being taught special techniques that it took generations to develop. When you are 90% or more in a weapon skill, you have a 5% chance to hit the weakest possible spot in your opponent's body and armor, that is your critical hit chance. What is the need to overcomplicate the thing and say that you also start a new skill at 10% that doubles your damage?

Note that setting the 90% skill as the requirement for entering the dojo that teaches a skill that doubles your damage is an entirely different thing. I think this is the exact opposite of the split-attack technique: it does not come with basic training, you need a master to learn it (or you need to be Musashi and discover the techniques yourself )

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

A lot of what we're doing is trying to puzzle out how to map out BRP to fit worldviews and concepts that work for us and our campaigns. The nice thing about BRP is that different approaches often lead to similar results.

[Shaira]

This does pick at an old BRP scab about the connection between Martial Arts skill and the normal Weapon Attack skill. My personal house rule is that any non-firearm attack skill above 76% (Expert level p.49) the player unlocks a 10% Martial Arts skill in that weapon only (if they already have Martial Arts, then ignore). This enables them to cultivate that skill or ignore it, but I'd require they go on "Dagobah" (SideQuest) and seek out a higher level master or school. If not, that Martial Art skill stays and won't advance unless and until they go off to train there.

I'm trying to get my head round this too. The issue I see is the definition of "Martial Arts" itself. It could be two things - and to some extent it's trying to be.

i.) A special esoteric above-black-belt set of secret techniques which unlock extraordinary abilities in a very highly skilled combatant.

ii.) The set of maneuvers and fighting techniques taught by "combat schools" the world over throughout history - be it China, Japan, fencing masters, the Musketeers, whatever.

The implication is that the "basic" weapon skills (ie "Great Sword Attack"), no matter how high, are predominantly relatively undisciplined skills ("I swing my great sword and hit it") which have largely been puzzled together by the individual combatant and don't have the finesse of someone who's been taught the corresponding Martial Art. However, I fail to see how Great Sword 150% is somehow "lacking" in this respect.

I've always assumed that someone gaining great skill in a weapon is already figuring out advanced techniques for themselves. And, if they opt for training, they're going to some fighting school or seeking out some hoary old master on a mountain somewhere and learning his secret techniques. In other words, I've always assumed the basic functions of Martial Arts are already subsumed in the generic armed weapon skill.

However, I *do* like the idea of fighting schools and esoteric techniques. So the way I'm playing this at the moment is that Martial Arts provides a series of learned (ie trained) moves which compliment your fighting skill. Hence, Martial Arts can *only* be learned by training, never by experience, and also can never exceed your corresponding weapon skill. I'm thinking too of including some "special maneuvers" by fighting school - but there are already a lot of these distributed throughout the BRP book that you have to be careful not to duplicate.

Sorry... no particular structure to my ramblings above, just brainstorming.

Cheers,

Sarah

[Trifletraxor]

Now technically, what is martial arts except training? Today it's mostly training in unarmed combat, but there are also weapon-style martial arts (like kendo, escrima, etc.). Now, a person training karate will probably be a better fighter than most people who don't train a martial art, but will he be better than a streetfighter with extensive fight experience? I'm not so sure about that. And I don't think his strikes will be twice as hard either. :cool:

SGL.

[RosenMcStern]

Now, a person training karate will probably be a better fighter than most people who don't train a martial art, but will he be better than a streetfighter with extensive fight experience?

No, or at least not necessarily. A person with trained only in dojos might be unprepared for a real fight.

And I don't think his strikes will be twice as hard either.

Here you are wrong. A streetfighter can possibly overwhelm a karate black belt with less "actual combat" experience than him, but can he kill with a single blow? Can he break items with his bare hands? All these are techniques taught to martial artists, but certainly not learned in street brawls.

So yes, there is a difference between martial arts and high levels in combat skills.

[frogspawner]

Here you are wrong.

Well maybe and maybe not. But what gives the best realistic feel of MA combat? For me, it's more the flying fists/feet that MA should be about.

Having tried it for awhile now, the new BRP idea of MA doubling damage by any weapon (previously it was just natural weaponry, IIRC) seems a bit off to me. For Fist attacks, doubling damage addressed the problem of a d3 not being able to get through any sigificant armour. But having widened it to any weapon makes MA skill a bit too important (especially now most specials don't do double damage anymore).

...use Martial Art to deliver more effective blows (as is the default use in the rule) or to strike more blows.

... He will continue attacking until he fails a Martial Art skill, runs out of opponent or runs out of DEX rank.

Martial Arts giving extra attacks, rather than extra damage - I like this better. Maybe the 5 SR delay could be less for natural weapons, giving them an advantage and restoring their link with MA.

The problem of small damage not getting through armour remains, though. Maybe give the double-damage effect back to specials, in addition to the characterful weapon-type specific effects?

[soltakss]

As Shaira points out, Martial Arts covers combat training and the super-normal abilities.

Anyone who is combat-trained will be a good fighter, will be able to use a sword, spear or whatever at a certain level, whether they are Samurai, Ninjas, Knigths Templars or Vikings.

However, traditional fantasy martial arts is a lot more than that. You have mundane things such as nerve strikes that lead to esoteric things such as the Finger of Death. A lot of Martial Arts teach breath control as a technique so you don't over-exert yourself and don't get tired as easily, but that gets extended to Ki control and supernatural abilities in fantasy martial arts.

So, you need to split the two in order to compare like with like.

RQ3 used Ki skills, RQM uses Legendary Abilities, BRP could use a variation on Powers. IN any case, there should be a difference between being a super-fit excellent swordsman able to cut an arrow from the air and a legendary swordsman able to cut twenty arrows from the air while dancing along a rooftop.

[Shaira]

So, you need to split the two in order to compare like with like.

RQ3 used Ki skills, RQM uses Legendary Abilities, BRP could use a variation on Powers. IN any case, there should be a difference between being a super-fit excellent swordsman able to cut an arrow from the air and a legendary swordsman able to cut twenty arrows from the air while dancing along a rooftop.

I've been looking at Ki skills again recently. I think that might definitely be the way to go for the "supernatural" end of the spectrum - the "super" or "heroic" skills. It might require writing a paragraph or so for each skill which has a "super" or "heroic" derivation, but the game mechanism is there, and it seems pretty good.

For me, that just leaves the middle ground, the "expert human fighting school master" aspect of MA to deal with. At the moment, I'm toying with dividing the MA skill into lots of different maneuvers - a bit like your "nerve pinch" maneuver, which would then have a "Quivering Palm of Death" Heroic skill. Each school would then teach different MA skills, potentially for the same standard skill. You'd have "Nerve Pinch" on the one hand (pardon the pun), and "Exploding Fist" on the other - both are MA skills on the Fist Attack, both have Heroic Skills derived from them.

That would be the detail. As a "general" skill rule, you'd have the "standard" MA skill in the BRP book, plus a "generalised" Heroic skill on top of it (perhaps dealing automatic criticals, as per the RQ3 "generalised" Ki weapon skill.

Then again, I sometimes sit back and wonder if it's just gilding the lily... >:->

Cheers,

Sarah

[RosenMcStern]

Having tried it for awhile now, the new BRP idea of MA doubling damage by any weapon (previously it was just natural weaponry, IIRC) seems a bit off to me. For Fist attacks, doubling damage addressed the problem of a d3 not being able to get through any sigificant armour. But having widened it to any weapon makes MA skill a bit too important (especially now most specials don't do double damage anymore).

Your comment is absolutely sensible. However, the idea behind the new Martial Arts is that there should not be a MA skill for any type of weapons. Schools that teach how to strike incredibly hard with a weapon should be rather rare if not unique. Real world examples should be limited to weapons that are especially crafted for ease of use, like rapiers or folded blades. There should not be any MA skill for axes or greatswords, at least in a realistic setting.

You want a more exoteric example of a MA school? Well, think of the Lunar Hell Sisters and their special Mace attacks from horseback: this attack is extremely deadly, but only a handful of selected witch warriors know its secret. And do not even hope to learn it if you are not a Hell Sister.

Martial Arts giving extra attacks, rather than extra damage - I like this better. Maybe the 5 SR delay could be less for natural weapons, giving them an advantage and restoring their link with MA.

This could be a different school of Martial Arts, that enhances speed instead of strength. It is not forbidden by the rules, just not the standard effect.

[frogspawner]

[Re: MA giving extra attacks not damage]This could be a different school of Martial Arts, that enhances speed instead of strength. It is not forbidden by the rules, just not the standard effect.

Thanks. It wouldn't really work for Fist/Foot/etc attacks, though - unless some other effect can be thought up to help get past armour. Relying on damage bonus to do that job seems against the MA ethos.

Any ideas?

[Shaira]

Thanks. It wouldn't really work for Fist/Foot/etc attacks, though - unless some other effect can be thought up to help get past armour. Relying on damage bonus to do that job seems against the MA ethos.

Any ideas?

I think this is where the RQ3 "Ki" skill concept would be useful. It's a much tougher-to-improve form of MA which personally I would require an MA score of 90% before you could even *start*, but whose default result is an automatic critical, costing 1PP for the "Ki" attack. My take would be:

1.) Have a Fist attack of 90%

2.) Have the Martial Arts (Special Fist Attack School) skill at 90%

3.) You start the "Exploding Fist" Heroic Skill (Ki skill) at 5% (your critical level with the MA skill).

The "Heroic" (ie Ki) skill allows you to spend 1PP before you make your Ki attack, which results in an automatic Critical. At beginning level it makes no difference, but +5% training with a "Ki master", and you have a Ki skill of 10%; now the skill starts making a difference. For 1PP, you have a 1 in ten chance of a critical fist attack, ignoring armor. Improvements to Ki skills, whether by experience or training, are rolled against the "parent" skill level (ie your MA skill of 90%), not your Ki skill score - it's tough to improve.

And so on, and so forth. Polished a bit, there might be a system there. I'm fiddling with it

Cheers,

Sarah

[Nightshade]

Well, the RQ3 Martial Art was really a roundabout way to let someone buy improved strikes and grapples without starting a whole separate set of skills from the ground up.

My own take on weapons based martial arts is probably that the "combat techniques" from RQ: AIG are probably the best way to go there.

[frogspawner]

I think this is where the RQ3 "Ki" skill concept would be useful.

Hmm. Doesn't solve the problem of armour for 'normals', though...

My own take on weapons based martial arts is probably that the "combat techniques" from RQ: AIG are probably the best way to go there.

I happened across these recently and they are good, if few in number. But maybe MA-enhanced ability to Aim/Bash/Disarm/Entangle/Slam is all that's necessary... Then add the special tactics (Feint/Flurry/(Steady?)/Disarm(Parry)/Guard/Riposte/Standfast/Counter/Evade) at greater skill, and finally (if the setting permits) advance into the realms of Ki abilities... ?

(Actually that is quite a few! You're right, they could be just the job!)

[Nightshade]

I happened across these recently and they are good, if few in number. But maybe MA-enhanced ability to Aim/Bash/Disarm/Entangle/Slam is all that's necessary... Then add the special tactics (Feint/Flurry/(Steady?)/Disarm(Parry)/Guard/Riposte/Standfast/Counter/Evade) at greater skill, and finally (if the setting permits) advance into the realms of Ki abilities... ?

(Actually that is quite a few! You're right, they could be just the job!)

Be aware there are some application problems with those though; if you don't get a fair bit of downtime, it can be next to impossible to get in the work to actually maintain those, which means they're often too low a level to actually be something someone will use compared to their rising normal weapon skills.