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Establishment of Reaching Moon Temples


David Scott

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Over on G+, Hyperlexic asked:

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Anyone have any info on when each of the Reaching Moon Temples were built?

I'm most curious about Palbar...

http://glorantha.wikia.com/wiki/Reaching_Moon_Temples

@David Weihe replied

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Well, obviously, none were built until the time of Magnificus, the Carmanian Red Emperor. Looking on the Wiki, Yara Aranis was apotheosized in 1409 ST, but still defeated by Sheng Seleris as late as 1443, so somewhere in this period she probably had her first border temples (as opposed to the Glamour temple, built by TakenEgi in 3/36 or 1407 ST, which didn't stop Sheng and was probably destroyed after he took the city).

Since the dates of the various temples do not seem to appear in the Wiki (nor are there pages for a number of the temples despite the above entry having pointers to them), I would suggest trying to guess what the order of the temples was, and assign the defeat and damnation of Sheng Seleris in 1460 ST to a point at which the temples could create a reasonable Glowline covering the DH Tripolis (and Carmania, of course). The Mirin's Cross temple was obviously built after SS's death, and at Kitor at or slightly after the Battle of Kitor. Other dates will require someone much more familiar with Lunar history and geography than I.

I've brought this over here as it's an interesting topic that merits further discussion. Also that we have the Senior Scholar of the Wiki[a] @metcalph on here.

It would be great to end up with a list of temples and their establishment dates or the range of possible establishment dates (and an updated Wiki:-)

There's a handy map in the Guide on page 297 to help and inspire.

 

 
 
 
 

 

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Per the Redline History, (GS p.118), "Yara Aranis’ first temple was built outside of Glamour" - it's where the baby goddess was exposed for all to see.

She was conceived sometime after the Red Emperor wrestled with Sheng outside of Glamour (which occurred in 3/34 (1389)).  In 3/42 (1397), a nomad warrior was tempted to rob the temple and is called First Slave.  This first temple must have been built around 3/41 (seven years after the wrestling match).

"Emboldened or freed by this victory, Yara Aranis set upon her first trek outside the temple. She stopped to rest on the banks of the Oslir, and there her second temple was built....  This is the place where boats from Sylila stopped to unload and was called Good Shore."  The approximate date for this temple is likely 3/43-3/44 (1398-9). 

You can see on the map on p.297 of the Guide that this second temple is the center of the Glowline and anchors it in all three directions.  And from GS p.119, "By the end of the [Third] Wane Yara Aranis had established two more temples".  By 3/54 (1409) "the Red Emperor named his daughter the Goddess of the Reaching Moon, and revealed her powers ... The temples provided centers for magical defense, and the "Glowline" which they could set up formed a decisive and permanent barrier against hostile magics as long as the temple was inviolate."

Early in the Fourth Wane we learn "The Temples of the Reaching Moon continued to spread from Glamour, and each one built was another trap for the nomad chieftain Sheng Seleris."  This spread occurs roughly over the next decade by 4/11 (1420) or so.

This indicates that there was/is a temple in Glamour, even though not indicated as a centerpoint in the Glowline.  My guess is that these initial temples beyond Good Shore are likely all contained within the Glowline circle that surrounds Good Shore and includes Glamour.  Probably include Raibanth and Red Fish.

Given that in 4/54 (1463), "imperial troops slaughtered the nomads at Yuthuppa" (which suggests that the nomads were still well entrenched there), I don't think the Glowline reached there yet, though maybe the Glowline pushes farther than the array of supporting temples?

We don't know for certain when the next temples were built, but per GS p.148 "in 1496 [5/33] the five-year old child king Phoronestes oversaw the dedication of new ground for a Temple of the Goddess of the Reaching Moon [in Tarsh]."  As this is the southernmost temple, it's likely that all the others (certainly Jillaro and Mirin's Cross to connect to Furthest; likely Torang, Graclodont, and Kitor) were built in the 30+ year period from 1464-1496.

Edited by jajagappa
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My suggestion for Palbar is between 1487 and 1490. After Hon-eel has given birth to the twins Twilight and Nightlight and before she leaves for Tarsh.

However, it could well be that the nomads overran this and then went on to the Nights of Horror.  In which case, the temple would have to be reconsecrated - likely having to quest to recover key things to drive the Glowline (e.g. a statue of Yara Aranis, a sacred Moonstone, etc.).

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2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Per the Redline History, (GS p.118), "Yara Aranis’ first temple was built outside of Glamour" - it's where the baby goddess was exposed for all to see.

[...]

This indicates that there was/is a temple in Glamour, even though not indicated as a centerpoint in the Glowline.  My guess is that these initial temples beyond Good Shore are likely all contained within the Glowline circle that surrounds Good Shore and includes Glamour.  Probably include Raibanth and Red Fish.

The Silver Shadow did convey the effects of the Glowline already before the first Temple of the Reaching Moon was ever built - it is an effect that cannot be switched off, IMO, even if the chain of temples fails completely. (It could be mystically negated, though.)

So why have the first TotRM built outside of Glamour? Ok, it is close enough to the center of the Silver Shadow (without being in the Crater/on the Moon), and it is probably the anchor for the Silver Shadow effect.

And there is more to temples to Yara Aranis than just providing the Glowline - its anti-horse-lord magics, to start with, which would have been its initial purpose. That Glowline effect might even have been a coincidence discovered after planting the Good Shore temple.

 

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Given that in 4/54 (1463), "imperial troops slaughtered the nomads at Yuthuppa" (which suggests that the nomads were still well entrenched there), I don't think the Glowline reached there yet, though maybe the Glowline pushes farther than the array of supporting temples?

The Glowline does extend further than the circular area defined by each anchor point. The actual line becomes a smoothed line, possibly fed by the overlap of areas of effect elsewhere.

There is something strange going on with Tork extending the Glowline and Imther Mountains/Hill of Gold negating its extension.

 

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There is something strange going on with Tork extending the Glowline and Imther Mountains/Hill of Gold negating its extension.

Tork is something of an anomaly with Jannisor binding the Mad Sultanate, and presumably some surge of Lunar magics, within.

But Giant Top, which is the greatest peak in Imther, is one of the Orlanthi sacred mountains.  While Hwarin had extended her road to Hilltown, it never went past, never conquered Orlanth there, so likely this factor keeps the Glowline at bay beyond Hilltown.  Also, there's a dwarf city under the Imther Mountains which doesn't have the impact of Greatway, but dwarf magics could also be a factor. 

6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

And there is more to temples to Yara Aranis than just providing the Glowline - its anti-horse-lord magics, to start with, which would have been its initial purpose. That Glowline effect might even have been a coincidence discovered after planting the Good Shore temple.

That seems quite plausible/reasonable.  Or maybe that's simply when the Red Emperor/Red Goddess fully revealed the powers of her 2nd Incarnation.

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I don't accept the notion that the Reaching Moon temples as they exist now are the ones built in the Seleran Wars.  Looking at the King of Sartar, We are told:

Quote

In 1496 the infant King Phoronestes oversaw the dedication of new ground for a Temple of
the Goddess of the Reaching Moon.  The building task was more difficult than that of a city,
and there were many years necessary for its completion

King of Sartar p103

The Guide mentions the temple being completed in 1496 (p330) for starters.  Since the Tarshite History in the King of Sartar is a corrupt source with many statements in the wrong place, the best we can say is that the temple was started when Phoronestes was an infant which was probably in 1491 but could have been in 1490.

Likewise the New Lunar Temple.  According to the Sartar Companion p80, it was started in 1612.  Construction began in earnest in 1618 and it was being completed in 1625.  

In both these cases, the temple construction takes many years at a time when the Lunar Empire does not have a serious opponent in the field.  Hence I do not believe the classic Reaching Moon Temples could have been constructed until after Sheng Seleris was defeated in 1460 ST.  Assuming seven temples and five to seven years per temple gives us 42 years of construction when Magnificus ruled for 46 years.  

The First Temple would have been in Torang as there would have still been a problem with nomads (or even the Jenet Aror).  The second may have been in Carmania as the White Bear Empire would have been a threat.  The southern path would have been next with the temples of Jillaro and Mirin's Cross.  Mirin's Cross would have to have been completed before 1490 as it makes little sense for the Lunars to dedicate a temple in Tarsh when the nearest one wasn't complete yet.  

The temple in Karasal is based in Graclodont.  According to the map on page 297, it isn't connected to the Good Shore.  Since the Great Sister resides there and has done so since 1496 or so, it is possible that the Glowline there is not through the Temple of the Reaching Moon but the innate light of the Great Sister.  

The Orayan temple would have been extant by the time of the Nights of Horrors as the Lunars lost two armies by then yet the nomads didn't overrun the place before the final army was bought to bear. It could have been completed before or after the temple in Tarsh.  My thinking is on the later.

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24 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I don't accept the notion that the Reaching Moon temples as they exist now are the ones built in the Seleran Wars.  

I second that notion - the ones built in the Seleran Wars would have been fed Pentan captives in large numbers, being rather inefficient with their sacrifice intake.

While the vast majority of the population of people under the influence will welcome the effects of the Glowline as a protective barrier against enemy action even if they are not Lunars, that stance might be different if a large portion of peacetime sacrifices need to come out of the native population.

I already wondered what would be the standard intake of human sacrifice to these temples. Anywhere comparable to the Bat feeding?

There's also the very different status of sacrifices to the chaotic aspects of the moon which annihilate the victims and human sacrifices to normal magic-through-death rites which supposedly places the sacrificial victims directly in the deity's otherworldly abode.

 

24 minutes ago, metcalph said:

In both these cases, the temple construction takes many years at a time when the Lunar Empire does not have a serious opponent in the field.  Hence I do not believe the classic Reaching Moon Temples could have been constructed until after Sheng Seleris was defeated in 1460 ST.  Assuming seven temples and five tO o seven years per temple gives us 42 years of construction when Magnificus ruled for 46 years.  

I don't think that these temples were built sequentially. Looking at the inner branches, we find them in the main areas of resistance during the Fourth Wane - Carmania (cult of Aronius Jaranthir), Graclodont (Great Sister), Sylila (Conquering Daughter), and RInliddi (birthplace of the Goddess). While there probably was an elite priesthood performing the greater magical dedication, a lot of the ongoing efforts could have been left to less elite priesthoods. And when lacking finesse, upping the body count of sacrifices has been a valid Lunar method.

24 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The First Temple would have been in Torang as there would have still been a problem with nomads (or even the Jenet Aror).  The second may have been in Carmania as the White Bear Empire would have been a threat.  The southern path would have been next with the temples of Jillaro and Mirin's Cross.  Mirin's Cross would have to have been completed before 1490 as it makes little sense for the Lunars to dedicate a temple in Tarsh when the nearest one wasn't complete yet.  

I could see Torang, Jillaro, Graclodont and Carmania being started in short sequence upon the successful completion of Good Shore, but dependent temples would have to wait for the previous one to be operating. Hon-eel's early career shows that there were nomad lords in local management even after Sheng's demise.

24 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The temple in Karasal is based in Graclodont.  According to the map on page 297, it isn't connected to the Good Shore.  Since the Great Sister resides there and has done so since 1496 or so, it is possible that the Glowline there is not through the Temple of the Reaching Moon but the innate light of the Great Sister.  

That would assume that Great Sister needs to be more or less permanently present in Graclodont. Maybe her presence could cover up for a breakdown of Good Shore, but I don't think that she acts as the main conduit by default.

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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16 hours ago, metcalph said:

I don't accept the notion that the Reaching Moon temples as they exist now are the ones built in the Seleran Wars.

They certainly don't have to be, and they likely have evolved significantly.  However, unless there is reason to rebuild/relocate (i.e. the location isn't propitious enough to extend the Glowline as far as it needs to go), I think it is reasonable to argue that there were a set of temples in these locations by the post-Nights of Horror timeframe desired for the campaign.

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

I already wondered what would be the standard intake of human sacrifice to these temples.

She's a horse-eater.  Doesn't need to be human sacrifice, though likely included both during the Seleran wars.

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

I could see Torang, Jillaro, Graclodont and Carmania being started in short sequence upon the successful completion of Good Shore, but dependent temples would have to wait for the previous one to be operating.

I think this makes sense.  And during the Fifth Wane the focus will be on wherever Hon-eel is active. 

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