Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 12 - Deep Discussion

[David Scott]

This is the Deep Discussion thread for Week 12 - Feel free to speculate, move away from the Guide section under discussion and into other related areas related to Kralorela.

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6746-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-12-kralorela/

 

[Joerg]

In the general thread, Gianni complained about Darudism being underdeveloped, which I agree with.

Darudism is one underdeveloped aspect, the sages are another one.

Aptanace gets mentioned four times in this chapter and three times in the Kralori culture section. With some work, we learn about his parents, his role as ancestor of the 700 civilized people, and where he was active.

p.57

Quote

Aptanace the Sage: The inventor of civilization and patriarch of the 700 pairs of ancestors of the Kralori peoples.

Ebe: Father of Mortals. Better known simply as the Wild Man, Ebe was full of lust and mated with everything he saw, thereby creating dwarves from mating with metals, elves by mating with plants, and so on. He was tamed by Okerio, with whom he fathered Aptanace.

Okerio: The Allgiver and the goddess of love.

p.153

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Aptanace the Sage: The founder of civilization. [Harmony and Truth runes]

p.272

Quote

Hanjan is famed for being the birthplace of civilization. Aptanace the Sage lived for his “central generations.” His son Julang Hombondol invented dams and irrigation here and the land is extensively crisscrossed by irrigation ditches.

p.274:

Quote

Jumo (small city): This ancient city was founded in the God Time by Jumo the Archer, a son of Aptanace the Sage and the river goddess Lifuren. 

Xingshu (small city): This city was founded on the spot where Aptanace instructed his sons of the 700 civilized arts. 700 stone stelae surround the Hall of Perfect Civilization, each extolling the wisdom of the Great Sage. The Academy of Xingshu is one of the oldest centers of learning in Kralorela and its library is one of the greatest in the world. The true name for every thing is taught by the sages of the Academy. The Xingshu Academy is one of the Three Rival Schools of Hanjan. 

p.285 (Wanzow Province)

Quote

Dousheng (small city): This city claims the honor of being the birthplace of Aptanace the Sage, and thus the birthplace of civilization. It is best known for its magnificent silver-plated statue to Okerio Allgiver, some 30 bu high (approximately 150 feet). 

Basically, Aptanace is the embodiment of Kralori civilization. Rather than four sons founding four castes, Aptanace has 700 sons who found the civilized arts (occupations) that define Kralori culture. That's quite a bit of a social life for an eastern sage, so asceticism isn't an inherent trait of Kralori culture (or sages).

 

The great mystic (and ascetic) sage of Kralorela (their equivalent to the Vithelan Mashunasan) is NiangMao, a contemporary of Metsyla and Shavaya who receives his own text box, mention for his mountain monastery in Puchai, and as teacher of the inventor of Kralori script (p.55). NiangMao's ideal of the Ultimate is the Void. His approach isn't named, other than as meditation (which is a basic technique common to all mystics).

NiangMao is not named among the students of Oorduren, the Vithelan Sage of the High Gods: Nenduren (seeking Atrilith, the Greath Self, through Stillness), Larn Hasamador (seeking Nothing through Immotion), and Mashunasan (seeking Durapdur (Being/Not-Being) through Unrealization).

 

The earliest emperor to take a hand in shaping Kralori civilization is Shavaya, a (human) sage. p.262

Quote

He went to a master mystic for guidance and was told to go to the House of Lordship and become Emperor, which he did.

That master mystic appears to be NiangMao - Revealed Mythology p.89 names him as advisor of Shavaya.

Quote

Shavaya overcame the temptations of the Beasts and the Ignorant, taught the arts of civilization, built dams and ditches, and introduced rice.

Wait - didn't we just read these achievements in the context of Aptanace?

Not quite. "overcame the temptations of the Beasts" rhymes well with the Hsunchen origin of the dragon emperors.

p.268 has this box on the beast people of Boshan:

Quote

Many Hsunchen peoples of the Shan Shan have been forced to abjure their bestial practices and become Kralori. They practice a debased form of their ancestral dances, much to the disgust of the local mandarins. They are sundered from their wild kindred by their worship of the Emperor.

Sounds like overcoming the temptations of the beast is the transformation of Hsunchen (and possibly beast riders, at least more recently) into nice and orderly Kralori citizens.

Quote

More serious is the Boshani folk religion descended from the ancient Turtle People. In their Sacred Time dance, a scapegoat betrays the community and becomes a dragon before being killed. They shock Kralori witnesses by explaining that the scapegoat stands in for Daruda who was “one of us” before he became a Dragon. The dance allows the turtle-people to defy the Emperors, and the Boshani countryside is ungovernable.

Does this have any ties to the dragon turtle antigod of Guilong Qiao?

I wonder how the Boshani countryside - most of it uplands far from the coast - would be dominated by turtle people. Are these turtle people kin to riverine or swamp turtles rather than the sea turtles of the Sofali? Or even tortoises?

This rite also casts some doubt at the claim that there were Kralori dragon hsunchen.

 

Basically, there was a Kralori civilization before the dragons took over. TarnGatHa, HeenMaroon and Metsyla may or may not have been draconic in nature - note the draconic shape Sandy Petersen chose for the solar emperor in Gods War. Shavaya wasn't, was overcome by Sekever, and then came Daruda.

The God Learners recognize Daruda as the first clearly draconic emperor of Kralorela.

The Kralori Culture section (p.57) states:

Quote

Daruda is the first Dragon Emperor, and he acquired those powers by becoming infinite, but returned to the world of life and death, where he was perceived to be a great dragon.

This sounds familiar - the dragonet or dragonewt ruler stage does pretty much the same.

On the other hand, Daruda organizes the Kralori afterlife. (Except when they believe in a cycle of reincarnations, like the MaoZen story seems to imply.)

The Dragon Emperor is the closest to the Egyptian Pharaoh that we find in Glorantha - a divine ruler whose passing onward also transports all the dead of his subjects along to a blissful afterlife. Sure, we get dragons instead of scarabs and Horus hawks, but the core idea of following the good ruler into the afterlife seems to apply.

The nature of these afterlife isn't entirely clear to me. Here we have Daruda, who as a mystic achieved the Void even before his teacher did, but returned as a Bhodisatva entity or Dragonet in order to help the people of the East.

p.262

Quote

After many years of rigorous discipline, Daruda achieved union with Nothing,

Shouldn't that be "The Void" rather than Larn Hasamador's "Nothing"?

Rigorous discipline sounds different from NiangMao's 1000 years fast. Probably austerities.

Given the "timing", Daruda's studies must have been during Sekever's reign. Sekever's unkralori ways may have contributed to Daruda's austerities.

[metcalph]

 

58 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Basically, Aptanace is the embodiment of Kralori civilization. Rather than four sons founding four castes, Aptanace has 700 sons who found the civilized arts (occupations) that define Kralori culture. That's quite a bit of a social life for an eastern sage, so asceticism isn't an inherent trait of Kralori culture (or sages).

Sages are not necessarily ascetics in Glorantha.

 

58 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I wonder how the Boshani countryside - most of it uplands far from the coast - would be dominated by turtle people. Are these turtle people kin to riverine or swamp turtles rather than the sea turtles of the Sofali? Or even tortoises?

The text speaks of the "Boshani folk religion descended from the ancient Turtle People".  In other words, they are not Turtle People but their ancestors were Turtle People in the distant past.

 

58 minutes ago, Joerg said:

This rite also casts some doubt at the claim that there were Kralori dragon hsunchen.

Just state Dragon People which is what the Guide (p283) calls them.  Secondly the Dragon People were said to 1) perhaps ruled before the coming of the Emperors or 2) the First Emperors (TarnGatha and HeenMaroun) may or may not have been Dragon People.  In any event, the Boshan ritual refers to Daruda (or a contemporary) who is considerably later than the first Emperors

So in short the Dragon People are presumed to have been around in the early Golden Age.  They disappear or devolve mysteriously such that Metsyla (not a Dragon) is ruling in the late Golden Age and afterwards.  

Personally I divide Kralorela up into sixteen different countries, with Aptanace dominating one region and the various Emperors being parallel dynasties rather than consecutive rulers.  The whole mythology is unified under the reign of Vashanti whose Web of Righteous Knowledge distorts the chronology.  Sekever becomes a mythical conflation of three enemies - the Blood Sun worshippers, the Trolls and the Huan To (while outside Kralorela, he's seen as a Kralori Emperor).

58 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Given the "timing", Daruda's studies must have been during Sekever's reign. Sekever's unkralori ways may have contributed to Daruda's austerities.

Daruda's studies could have been during the Storm Age before Sekever came.  The time between becoming Infinite and returning to the World of Life and Death is not stated in the text.

[Joerg]

 

29 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Sages are not necessarily ascetics in Glorantha.

Which was an observation I had made, yes. Specifically this eastern sage, but apparently also the emperor sages.

29 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The text speaks of the "Boshani folk religion descended from the ancient Turtle People".  In other words, they are not Turtle People but their ancestors were Turtle People in the distant past.

So do you think that the converted Turtle people left the coasts and cultivated a new land for their new ways of agriculture etc?

 

29 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Just state Dragon People which is what the Guide (p283) calls them.  Secondly the Dragon People were said to 1) perhaps ruled before the coming of the Emperors or 2) the First Emperors (TarnGatha and HeenMaroun) may or may not have been Dragon People.  In any event, the Boshan ritual refers to Daruda (or a contemporary) who is considerably later than the first Emperors

So in short the Dragon People are presumed to have been around in the early Golden Age.  They disappear or devolve mysteriously such that Metsyla (not a Dragon) is ruling in the late Golden Age and afterwards.  

What is the Kralori story for HeenMaroun's demise?

Quote

HeenMaroun brought his reign to an end by creating a demon to destroy him, and then reappearing as the Bolt of Enlightenment to destroy the demon and start the world anew.

So basically HeenMaroun created the Rebellus Terminus for utuma and reappearance as a signal from the Ultimate.

Destroy the demon and start the world anew... This could refer to Orlanth (much later) starting the Lightbringers's Quest, which enabled the Dawn. In the meantime, we have oodles of emperors to cramp into the Gods War,

 

29 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Personally I divide Kralorela up into sixteen different countries,

How do you arrive at this number? I count eight provinces, plus Chen Durel. A few may have been sunk by Daruda establishing the Suam Chow.

29 minutes ago, metcalph said:

with Aptanace dominating one region and the various Emperors being parallel dynasties rather than consecutive rulers.  

I disagree about Aptanace. His story sounds like an End of Green Age story that would fit well into the start of HeenMaroun's reign.

Aptanace is born on Wanzow, but is most active in Hanjan. He, or his dynasty, may have remained as rulers of this region.

 

The Thalurzni - Halisayan+Bodkartu combo has planetary considerations that seem to place this dynasty before the Doom Constellation. Of course, that would mean still during Yelm's emperorship, which makes the identification of Yelm with HeenMaroun slightly problematic in just the way that drove the God Learner architects of the Monomyth crazy. But then they didn't know about Murharzarm (who appears to be the son of Dendara, though).

Halisayan doesn't work quite as well as Enjata-mo/KataMoripi for the early Storm Age sky.

 

Daruda as traitor to the turtle people and cause of the sinking of the lands in the Suam Chow works for the Storm Age.

29 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The whole mythology is unified under the reign of Vashanti whose Web of Righteous Knowledge distorts the chronology.  Sekever becomes a mythical conflation of three enemies - the Blood Sun worshippers, the Trolls and the Huan To (while outside Kralorela, he's seen as a Kralori Emperor).

And like the Sampo quest in Kalevala, is so good an enemy that his story deserves to be told twice.

Revealed Mythology maps the second instance of Sekever to Herespur (p.124) and the first to Oorsu Sara (p.123), suggesting some trust in the dynastic sequence.

29 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Daruda's studies could have been during the Storm Age before Sekever came.  The time between becoming Infinite and returning to the World of Life and Death is not stated in the text.

True.

What do you make of Daruda and Sh'Harkarzeel sharing the same epithet, Mover of Heavens?

I thought it was in the Copper Tablets, but I seem to have misremembered - there is a passage that states that Orlanth's rise into the heavens was followed by a dragon, which should have been Sh'Harkarzeel. If Daruda's demise and Orlanth slaying the Mover of Heaven are the same event, we get Early Storm Age for this. Even before the Floods that bring the end of Metsyla.

I am a bit astonished that Daruda's utuma brings the dead to the Summer Land Heaven, the intermediary resting place. For Rebirth in Yothbedta's Stream? I remember the Kralori afterlife as the dead of the Kralori entering a friendly limbo waiting for their emperor to perform utuma and guide them on to the Absolute. (My source for this might be Sandy Petersen when questioned about ShangHsa and Yanoor. Possibly on the Digest, possibly face-to-face.)

But then I never really understood the status of Vithela. It doesn't seem to be part of the Inner World despite protruding into it, and it is not an Underworld. Approaching sailors perceive it as uninhabited.

In the Gods War, the Vithelan civilization was present on that continent as much as on the surrounding islands. What changed?

But that's a topic for next year, really, except for the possibility that we may find the Summer Land Heaven there.

[lokamayadon]

Thé importance that seems to have thé blood sun during hero wars is new for me and I think thère is à lot of potential for a multiplie areas campagne in glorantha (even in fonrit)

I am trying to build à consistent figure between blood sun black sun alenthor honeel the east isles the anti gods chaos etc... 

Not easy and all your ideas are welcomed ! 

[metcalph]

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

So do you think that the converted Turtle people left the coasts and cultivated a new land for their new ways of agriculture etc?

No.  I think they originally lived in a shallow sea or lake and their land dried up.

 

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

So basically HeenMaroun created the Rebellus Terminus for utuma and reappearance as a signal from the Ultimate.

Rebellus Terminus is Pelorian mythology and I really wouldn't use it in this context.  It implies certain assumptions about the nature of the Demon that are not necessarily true.

 

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

Destroy the demon and start the world anew... This could refer to Orlanth (much later) starting the Lightbringers's Quest, which enabled the Dawn.

Again HeenMaroun is a contemporary of Yelm, his mythology does not track closely with yelm at every particular nor should it.

 

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

How do you arrive at this number (of sixteen countries - PHM)? I count eight provinces, plus Chen Durel. A few may have been sunk by Daruda establishing the Suam Chow.

I count sixteen countries because Vayobi created the Kralori language from the more than fifteen languages (Guide p55).  The extra one is Chern Durel.

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

I disagree about Aptanace. His story sounds like an End of Green Age story that would fit well into the start of HeenMaroun's reign.

HeenMaroun is early/middle Golden Age.  I really don't see a civilization founder existing at the end of the Green Age.  Murharzarm, a parallel figure, is late Golden Age.  Debate on when Aptanace was active depends on how developed his arts were when he lived.  He could be much earlier than Murharzarm but then he would be a neolithic type much like the cultures of the Entekosiad.

However he is twice mentioned in context with Rivers (Jumo is his son by a river goddess and another son, Julan Hombondol invents dams and irrigation).  That suggests a late Golden Age as gloranthans begin to make use of the rivers.

However he could also be founder of city life like of a Catal Hayuk level of development and the subsequent arts that developed after he lived were ascribed to a son of his as a way of incorporating it within his civilization.  

 

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

Aptanace is born on Wanzow, but is most active in Hanjan. He, or his dynasty, may have remained as rulers of this region.

Aptanace is however not mentioned as a King or an Emperor.  So I really see a city-state culture in Hanjan.  The lack of Aptanace deeds in Wanzow (other than being born there) suggests an attempt to civilize Wanzow much later.

 

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Thalurzni - Halisayan+Bodkartu combo has planetary considerations that seem to place this dynasty before the Doom Constellation. Of course, that would mean still during Yelm's emperorship, which makes the identification of Yelm with HeenMaroun slightly problematic in just the way that drove the God Learner architects of the Monomyth crazy. But then they didn't know about Murharzarm (who appears to be the son of Dendara, though).

Halisayan doesn't work quite as well as Enjata-mo/KataMoripi for the early Storm Age sky.

Or Thaluzrni could have just married the Goddess Halisayan long after the Doom Conjunction as Bodkartu doesn't appear in his mythology.

 

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

Daruda as traitor to the turtle people and cause of the sinking of the lands in the Suam Chow works for the Storm Age.

Careful now.  The Boshan believe Daruda to have been one of them.  That doesn't mean that Daruda comes from Boshan.  If the Turtle People were betrayed by someone who wanted to become a Dragon, the motive is strong for that traitor to be identified as Daruda when it came to being ruled by the Dragon Emperors.  Ergo effective magical resistance to draconic imperialism.

 

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

What do you make of Daruda and Sh'Harkarzeel sharing the same epithet, Mover of Heavens?

I thought it was in the Copper Tablets, but I seem to have misremembered - there is a passage that states that Orlanth's rise into the heavens was followed by a dragon, which should have been Sh'Harkarzeel.

The passage is from Heaven Corrupted in the Glorious ReAscent p74 and goes:

Quote

Sons of Umatum rise out of the ruined North Camp,
bearing the weapons of their dead father. Unknown
to them, a Dragon pursues.

 

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

If Daruda's demise and Orlanth slaying the Mover of Heaven are the same event, we get Early Storm Age for this. Even before the Floods that bring the end of Metsyla.

Except that Daruda's reign and title of Mover of Heaven stem from the Great Darkness, not when he was studying to become a Dragon.

 

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

I am a bit astonished that Daruda's utuma brings the dead to the Summer Land Heaven, the intermediary resting place. For Rebirth in Yothbedta's Stream?

Yothbedta's Stream is only mentioned in context of ShangHsa and there seems to be an error in that Yothbedta is a Plant Goddess. I think Greg meant Yothenara but Summer Land Heaven is mentioned is described as a resting place for mortals between lives according to Revealed Mythologies p125

 

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

I remember the Kralori afterlife as the dead of the Kralori entering a friendly limbo waiting for their emperor to perform utuma and guide them on to the Absolute. (My source for this might be Sandy Petersen when questioned about ShangHsa and Yanoor. Possibly on the Digest, possibly face-to-face.)

It's from Gods of Glorantha (it even survives in HeroQuest Voices).  Reconcilation is possible by assuming that virtuous Kralori stay longer at Summer Land Heaven so that they have a greater chance of being with the Emperor when he passes on.

 

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

But then I never really understood the status of Vithela. It doesn't seem to be part of the Inner World despite protruding into it, and it is not an Underworld. Approaching sailors perceive it as uninhabited.

I'm not sure where you get the uninhabited bit from.  There are peoples on Vithela according to Revealed Mythologies (Venform, Mashunasan etc) while the Guide p477 has a ship from Vithela docking to trade.  

 

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

No.  I think they originally lived in a shallow sea or lake and their land dried up.

Boshan has a hilly hinterland. Not quite the remnants of a lake or shallow sea.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Rebellus Terminus is Pelorian mythology and I really wouldn't use it in this context.  It implies certain assumptions about the nature of the Demon that are not necessarily true.

Again HeenMaroun is a contemporary of Yelm, his mythology does not track closely with yelm at every particular nor should it.

So you are in the "different Yelm and Aether" camp here. Ok.

Revealed Mythology has difficulties placing the Kralori emperors, too, like Shavaya being named as guardian of Kerandaruth when Govmeranen (equated with HeenMaroun) retires, named by Mashunasan (who reassembled the world). (p.85, with a footnote expressing some doubt.)

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I count sixteen countries because Vayobi created the Kralori language from the more than fifteen languages (Guide p55).  The extra one is Chern Durel.

Ok, 16 different tribes/nations/linguistic groups I can buy, although some may already have been joined into small empires by enterprising leaders.

In civilized Kralorela, only three languages are spoken officially - imperial Kralorelan, Stultan, and the turtle dialect on that lotus-growing island southeast of Wanzow.

Hsunchen languages aren't supposed to be related to Kralorelan, and will be spoken by the wild Hsunchen of the uncivilized mountain regions.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

HeenMaroun is early/middle Golden Age.  I really don't see a civilization founder existing at the end of the Green Age.  Murharzarm, a parallel figure, is late Golden Age.  Debate on when Aptanace was active depends on how developed his arts were when he lived.  He could be much earlier than Murharzarm but then he would be a neolithic type much like the cultures of the Entekosiad.

Naverian civilization was present at the start of the Golden Age, when Brighteye "assumed his rightful place as emperor of the world". Nochet is about as old.

Aptanace's father Ebe is as primitive as you can get in Kralorela, mating (and procreating) with everything until he meets The Woman, the eastern aspect of Uleria, and gets tamed. God Learner mythographers might have debated whether this was Grandfather Mortal, Old Lodril or (if they had heard of him) Ganesatarus (or some other "First non-mother" entity).

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

However he is twice mentioned in context with Rivers (Jumo is his son by a river goddess and another son, Julan Hombondol invents dams and irrigation).  That suggests a late Golden Age as gloranthans begin to make use of the rivers.

Except that Suvarian and Nochet mythology starts in a Green Age with rivers. Much like Entekos provides the Golden Age with air.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

However he could also be founder of city life like of a Catal Hayuk level of development and the subsequent arts that developed after he lived were ascribed to a son of his as a way of incorporating it within his civilization.  

Or he could have lived through all of the Golden Age, taking his time to leave 700 sons behind.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Aptanace is however not mentioned as a King or an Emperor.  So I really see a city-state culture in Hanjan.  The lack of Aptanace deeds in Wanzow (other than being born there) suggests an attempt to civilize Wanzow much later.

Or an exodus from the still uncivilized influence of Ebe.

I don't think that Aptanace became a ruler at any time. He is the wise patriarch helping institute an emerging civilization. No idea whether this was of Catal Huyuk sophistication to start with. Irrigation is credited to one of his sons, and this communal effort will have started urban life and administration.

(Communal waterworks like irrigation don't always result in urban cultures - the Frisian coast management worked well from a clan-based society or farmers' republic.)

In a way, Aptanace occupies a similar role in the emerging Kralori civilization as Durev does on the Downland Migration. The deeds of Murharzarm or Mohenjar in Dara Happa are different from that.

The civilization created by Aptanace is orderly, sedentary, patriarchal and free from major struggles or problems that couldn't be solved by the patriarch. Perhaps comparable to Tada, his neighbor.

 

It isn't quite clear how the mystic NiangMao came into this. For all we know, he may have been a disciple of Oorduren. And he may have studied with the dragonewts, given that his Void might be the same focus that the EWF mystics appears to have.

Shavayah started out as a sage seeking advice from NiangMao, then civilizing the Hsunchen around him, introducing them to rice farming and all the other trappings of civilization. He probably did so away from Hanjan.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Or Thaluzrni could have just married the Goddess Halisayan long after the Doom Conjunction as Bodkartu doesn't appear in his mythology.

Bodkartu appears in hers. In Thalurzni's mythology, Halisayan eats the Immortality Pill, possibly marking her becoming a goddess.

Of course, this may have been the old "avatar of a stellar deity" theme rather than the stellar goddess herself. Oh the other hand, Thalurzni did travel deeply mystical paths when he didn't dabble in alchemy.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Careful now.  The Boshan believe Daruda to have been one of them.  That doesn't mean that Daruda comes from Boshan.  If the Turtle People were betrayed by someone who wanted to become a Dragon, the motive is strong for that traitor to be identified as Daruda when it came to being ruled by the Dragon Emperors.  Ergo effective magical resistance to draconic imperialism.

Fanzai and Boshan may have been a single land mass (although that makes the turtle presence even more problematic). There are civilized turtle folk on the far side of Fanzai, and there are (astonishingly few) Sofali on the Sofali islands far south of Fethlon.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Except that Daruda's reign and title of Mover of Heaven stem from the Great Darkness, not when he was studying to become a Dragon.

I would have said Lesser Darkness. The first coming of Sekever is associated with Oorsu Sara, and is resolved when Govmeranen steps down. (But see RM p.85 for problems with this.)

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Yothbedta's Stream is only mentioned in context of ShangHsa and there seems to be an error in that Yothbedta is a Plant Goddess. I think Greg meant Yothenara but Summer Land Heaven is mentioned is described as a resting place for mortals between lives according to Revealed Mythologies p125

Yothenara would be known as Okerio the Allgiver, the female principle.  Not exactly the deity I would expect to be in charge of the stream of rebirth, either.

In Theyalan myth, Ty Kora Tek (or Asrelia) is keeper of such a stream of rebirth.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I'm not sure where you get the uninhabited bit from.  There are peoples on Vithela according to Revealed Mythologies (Venform, Mashunasan etc) while the Guide p477 has a ship from Vithela docking to trade.  

Ok. Maybe I should have said that it is Vithalash (the portion protruding into the Inner World) which I don't get - the feautureless (except for elevation and rivers) map surrounded e.g. by the Mokato Dozen with lots of features like vegetation. The place you cannot ever leave because of utter contentment.

The Mokato dozen political map extends all the way to the shores of Vithalash, indicating no naval activity from Vithalash.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Boshan has a hilly hinterland. Not quite the remnants of a lake or shallow sea.

Geography has changed dramatically elsewhere in Glorantha.  I really don't see this as a refutation.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Revealed Mythology has difficulties placing the Kralori emperors, too, like Shavaya being named as guardian of Kerandaruth when Govmeranen (equated with HeenMaroun) retires, named by Mashunasan (who reassembled the world). (p.85, with a footnote expressing some doubt.)

Revealed Mythologies has some errors so I'm really not fussed about the inconsistencies found therein.  In any case, that represents an Eastern Islanders view (whereas a Kralori view would be have say Niang Mao instead of Mashunasan).  Judging from the Vormaini section of the Guide, I no longer believe that Osdero is another name for Metsyla.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

In civilized Kralorela, only three languages are spoken officially - imperial Kralorelan, Stultan, and the turtle dialect on that lotus-growing island southeast of Wanzow.

A dialect cannot be spoken officially (and the guide calls it an actual language rather than a dialect).  In Zheng Guiren, the officials would speak and write Kralori while the locals would speak a Sofali language.  I imagine the situation exists all over Kralorela much as it does in the Real World.  What Vayobi unified would have been the different official languages as opposed to the non-Kralori dialects which there was no interest n.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Naverian civilization was present at the start of the Golden Age, when Brighteye "assumed his rightful place as emperor of the world". Nochet is about as old.

I'm afraid you are misled by Dara Happan mythology.  The Naverians are a mixture of two cultures, the Estardavi (under the Red King) and the Wendarians (under Naveria).  Both are considerably distant from their ancestors that emerged from the Green Age.    The Estardavi are the Made People (the story of their creation is in the Glorious ReAscent p10) and is depicted as occurring well into the Golden Age.

Naveria's home culture was a mixture of the Male and Female Tribes (AroTurru and Agraketae) whose meeting and union also occurs in the Golden Age.  Valare describes these as taken part in the Wendarian Age (Golden Age) rather than the Provarian Age (Green Age)

Brightface was first male leader of the Franaans of Darsen rather than the Hinnae of what later became Naveria.  He had been appointed in the eighth generation after the first White Queen (according .  It is my belief that the rule of the White Queens marks the Early Golden Age while the rule of the Brightface, the Red King and Yelm takes part in the Middle Golden Age (Murharzarm is Late Golden Age).

The Dara Happans have purposely forgotten everything related to the White Queens in order to promote the supremacy of Yelm.  If and when they do encounter the White Queen in mythology, they assume her to be a degeneration of Yelm's Perfect Empire rather than a precursor.

As for Nochet being about as old, yes I agree.  The Grandmothers are lying here too for similar reasons.  

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Aptanace's father Ebe is as primitive as you can get in Kralorela, mating (and procreating) with everything until he meets The Woman, the eastern aspect of Uleria, and gets tamed. God Learner mythographers might have debated whether this was Grandfather Mortal, Old Lodril or (if they had heard of him) Ganesatarus (or some other "First non-mother" entity).

I'm not really concerned about what the God Learners might have called him.  Even if Ebe were representative of a Kralori of the Green Age, the fact that the Kralori believe Aptanace to be his son means little in terms of determining when Aptanace lived.  The scheme could have been Ebe was brought to intelligence and awareness by the love of Okerio (marking the beginning of the Golden Age).  They begat a dynasty of increasingly intelligent cultural heroes, the latest and greatest of whom was Aptanace.  Much later on, the Kralori omit all the possible ancestors between Ebe and Aptanace in order to further glorify the impact of Okerio.  So Aptanace could have been very early Golden Age, middle Golden Age or even late Golden Age.  It depends on how what the Aptanacid culture is like and that we don't have enough information.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Except that Suvarian and Nochet mythology starts in a Green Age with rivers.

I said making use of rivers (dams and irrigation).  That is still late Golden Age.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

In a way, Aptanace occupies a similar role in the emerging Kralori civilization as Durev does on the Downland Migration. The deeds of Murharzarm or Mohenjar in Dara Happa are different from that.

But Durev isn't exactly early Golden Age is he?  He's more like Storm Age.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The civilization created by Aptanace is orderly, sedentary, patriarchal and free from major struggles or problems that couldn't be solved by the patriarch. Perhaps comparable to Tada, his neighbor.

Tada is well into the west and lived well in the Storm Age (the first mention of him in the mythic maps has in the Middle Storm Age - Guide p689).  Tada also had troubles with the Basmoli and allied with the Vingkotlings thus again he is not comparable to Aptanace.  

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

It isn't quite clear how the mystic NiangMao came into this. For all we know, he may have been a disciple of Oorduren. And he may have studied with the dragonewts, given that his Void might be the same focus that the EWF mystics appears to have.

I would avoid trying to draw connections all over the place.  Oorduren lived on the far side of Abzered.  NiangMao would have been far more likely to consult with the Ineffable Thirteen then he would with Oorduren.  But I believe that whoever NiangMao consulted with came from within Kralori mythology (HeenMaroun etc).  I doubt it was the Dragonewts because when the Dragon People are described in the Guide, nobody thinks to mention the Dragonewts of Fanzai and Hum Chang.  Hence I think the Dragonewts came later as a result of Daruda.

Secondly NiangMao is active in Puchai whereas Aptanace is primarily active in Hanjan.  Any culture influenced by NiangMao would therefore be a contemporary culture of the Aptanacids.  

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Shavayah started out as a sage seeking advice from NiangMao, then civilizing the Hsunchen around him, introducing them to rice farming and all the other trappings of civilization. He probably did so away from Hanjan.

While Shavaya invented a great many things, I think it an error to describe the people he helped as Hsunchen. They were Kralori just like the people of Aptanace and NiangMao.  Shavaya was ruling in the Late Storm Age (Guide p692)and Kralorela had been ruled by Metsyla for up to forty or fifty thousand years.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Bodkartu appears in hers. In Thalurzni's mythology, Halisayan eats the Immortality Pill, possibly marking her becoming a goddess.

Just because Bodkartu appears in Halisayan's mythology does not mean that she, Thalurzni and Halisayan form a mythic whole.  Halisayan would have two mythic cycles - her life with Thalurzni and her life with Bodkartu.

As for the effect of the Pill of Immortality, I think Halisayan was a dead goddess or a corpse at the time.  The Pill of Immortality brought her back to be able to be worshipped by the Kralori during the Great Darkness.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Of course, this may have been the old "avatar of a stellar deity" theme rather than the stellar goddess herself. Oh the other hand, Thalurzni did travel deeply mystical paths when he didn't dabble in alchemy.

My problem with your current style of theorizing is that you tend to assume that if  an X figure appears, it must have been the real X that was interacted with.  Whereas I am seeing mythologies as reactions to and interpretations of events of cosmic importance (coming of death, death of the Sun).  I prefer to keep interactions within the same region (what happened in Kralorela stays in Kralorela) early in the Golden Age with wider interactions taking place much later in the Storm Age.

For example, if I were to posit a connection between the Kralori Empire and Genert, I would rule out the early Emperors in favour of the later ones.  In the Golden Age, there wouldn't an awareness of a world beyond the boundaries of Kralorela whereas in the Storm Age, the countries have united and conquered their local menaces and are struggling with their each other.

 

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I would have said Lesser Darkness. The first coming of Sekever is associated with Oorsu Sara, and is resolved when Govmeranen steps down. (But see RM p.85 for problems with this.)

Shavaya is described as ruling in the later Storm Age/Lesser Darkness (Guide p692).  Daruda himself isn't mentioned until the Great Darkness (Guide p695).  Secondly Sekever isn't mentioned in connection with Govmeranen but rather the Minister of Fire (Guide p262 - probably a successor to HeenMaroun).

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Ok. Maybe I should have said that it is Vithalash (the portion protruding into the Inner World) which I don't get - the feautureless (except for elevation and rivers) map surrounded e.g. by the Mokato Dozen with lots of features like vegetation. The place you cannot ever leave because of utter contentment.

Again, I do not understand why you think there is no vegetation.

Quote

East Isle ships regularly sail up its rivers
seeking the wondrous artifacts that occasionally
float downstream.  The sailors are careful never
to land, drink the pure river water, or eat any
fruit from the trees overhanging the rivers

Guide p477

 

[Roko Joko]

The Argan Argar Atlas shows Vithalash unmarked with any tree icons, in marked contrast to the islands around it.  Maybe that was carelessness or a lack of time; maybe it was deliberate to show it as special, like by being in the Outer World.  In-setting I'm sure it looks like the other islands, just more fantastical.

Seems to me it would be a choice spot for elderly people to go, when they're ready to go.  Maybe everyone in the East Isles goes there in the end if they can.  Or maybe that's forbidden; maybe it separates your soul from your home island.

[KeithN]

On 16/09/2017 at 7:30 PM, Joerg said:

 

Quote

Rebellu

Quote

I count sixteen countries because Vayobi created the Kralori language from the more than fifteen languages (Guide p55).  The extra one is Chern Durel.

Ok, 16 different tribes/nations/linguistic groups I can buy, although some may already have been joined into small empires by enterprising leaders.

In civilized Kralorela, only three languages are spoken officially - imperial Kralorelan, Stultan, and the turtle dialect on that lotus-growing island southeast o

 

In my boardgame "History of Kralorela" I had 14 Hsunchen groups, plus Dragon People and Ignorants, making 16 human groups that later become Kralorelans. 

[davecake]

Ebe the Wild Man would definitely have been Grandfather Mortal according to the God Learners, and his modern day 'cult' is ancestor worship, just like Daka Fal or the Hsunchen Old Man and Old Woman. 

But the  connection through Aptanace and his sons is significant and useful, I think most professions are hereditary, and the ability to contact ancestors is of significant practical everyday value, as you can contact ancestors who are masters of your profession and able to give useful advice, etc. This applies even to, and is particularly useful for, professions like 'sorcerer' or 'priest'. 

As far as the idea of Aptanace as ruler, or an Aptanace empire, I don't think the Kralori would think of it quite that way, but I am sure the 700 professions includes professions like king, headman, warlord, etc and of course they are credited with ruling a part of the country. 

Is Aptanace a sage in the sense it is used in the East Isles, meaning in Revealed Mythology a sage is defined as being a wise mystic? I do not think Aptanace shows any signs of asceticm, or indeed mysticism other than the title Sage. Mysticism and asceticism aren't synonymous, but pretty close - austerities seem pretty basic to eastern mystic practice. (Without gettting too much into Gloranthan equivalents of Buddhist concepts of the middle way, that are still somewhat ascetic compared to typical life). 

 

[Joerg]

18 hours ago, davecake said:

Ebe the Wild Man would definitely have been Grandfather Mortal according to the God Learners, and his modern day 'cult' is ancestor worship, just like Daka Fal or the Hsunchen Old Man and Old Woman. 

Ebe the Wild Man might also map to Iste, one of the nine Avanparloth of Vithela, aka Majadan. After all Okeria maps to Yothenara/Erdires.

18 hours ago, davecake said:

But the  connection through Aptanace and his sons is significant and useful, I think most professions are hereditary, and the ability to contact ancestors is of significant practical everyday value, as you can contact ancestors who are masters of your profession and able to give useful advice, etc. This applies even to, and is particularly useful for, professions like 'sorcerer' or 'priest'. 

On the other hand, one becomes a mandarin only after success in an exam of acceptance, so children of mandarins don't automatically stay in their parent's class. I guess most who don't join the ranks of scribes instead, ranking among the artisans or the crafters, unless they join the army or other imperial institutions outside of the norms of society.

 

18 hours ago, davecake said:

As far as the idea of Aptanace as ruler, or an Aptanace empire, I don't think the Kralori would think of it quite that way, but I am sure the 700 professions includes professions like king, headman, warlord, etc and of course they are credited with ruling a part of the country. 

In a certain way, Aptanace parallels the Confucian basic society, although his story would be quite different from the historical Confucius (however the transliteration is nowadays). But that's as far as I would state this parallel to ancient China - a philosopher instituting the society.

Shavaya does many similar things. He too is a sage, but not one of the great mystics.

18 hours ago, davecake said:

Is Aptanace a sage in the sense it is used in the East Isles, meaning in Revealed Mythology a sage is defined as being a wise mystic? I do not think Aptanace shows any signs of asceticm, or indeed mysticism other than the title Sage. Mysticism and asceticism aren't synonymous, but pretty close - austerities seem pretty basic to eastern mystic practice. (Without gettting too much into Gloranthan equivalents of Buddhist concepts of the middle way, that are still somewhat ascetic compared to typical life). 

The Venfornic practice doesn't always use asceticism.

I think that Aptanace derived deeper insights from regulating the everyday life. A fusion of materialism and mysticism, perhaps, requiring mundane knowledge and study in order to achieve transcendent insights.

Shavaya went to NiangMao for advice, and set out to become emperor. As emperor, he instituted irrigation and rice cultivation. But Shavaya was a sage before, too.

 

Which brings me to the question what exactly the Exarchs are. In the Guide, they are presented as draconic entities sporting human bodies. I wonder how much fluctuation there is in the ranks of the Exarchs and Archexarchs, and how new Exarchs are recruited. We know this for the Mandarins (p.54), who (IMO) embody the Aptanacic tradition. 

Not all exarchs are overseers of provinces (though p.54 leads us to assume this). Lungren Men has an exarch of the dragon gate (p.271). Hou Shi has a Monkey Exarch (p.277). Boshi Bushi oversees just the small island of Xie Dao (p.278). The bridges are said to have their own minor exarchs (p.277) rather than grand mandarins.

Lingting in Boshan has the Exarch of the South (p.271)

Several exarchs come color coded, including blue, white and invisible.

The contest between Sheng and the Exarch at the Iron Forts had the Exarch display Raw Manifestation, which sounds like a draconic mystical ability.

 

Another puzzle: The absence of any mention of the Cult of the Orca in the Kralorela chapter - it only crops up in the Dragon section, p.79.

This as always been strange - Thrunhin Da is the Kralori name for Harantara, the ancestress of the Zabdamar merfolk. Why would she institute a military cult to deal with issues between her descendants and her worshipers, and not a means of propitiation of the merfolk? The HQ1 affinities in Men of the Sea offer such rituals.

There isn't any mention of orcas in the guide in relation to Kralori marines.

[davecake]

I'm not sure that Mandarins are embodiments of the Aptanic tradition. Aptanace is the people, mandarins are the state. 

on Ebe - look at his runes in the pantheons section. He is Grandfather Mortal. 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

I'm not sure that Mandarins are embodiments of the Aptanic tradition. Aptanace is the people, mandarins are the state. 

on Ebe - look at his runes in the pantheons section. He is Grandfather Mortal. 

That doesn't preclude him from being Majadan/Iste from the first First Dancers among the Avanparloth as well. That trio - Oorduren the primal Sage, Majadan the primal Man and Yothenara the primal Woman - are representatives of what humans could become.

[davecake]

I disagree. The Primal Masculine and the First Man are not the same thing. Majadan is a great god and a cosmic power, of the Celestial Court level. Grandfather Mortal is the first Mortal - he is of mortal flesh, and he dies like a man. 

Its like confusing Aether and Mahome.