HQ: G: Jakaleel subcult magic

[Unferth]

Hi, I'm mostly new to Glorantha and Heroquest. I've been reading extensively for background material from the Runequest Classics line and the Guide to Glorantha, but only have the HQ: Glorantha book for Heroquest rules.

Looking at the Heroquest: Glorantha rules for Lunar magic, I thought I understood them but now I'm confused by the "Magics" line in the Seven Mothers subcults listings. In particular, I'm not sure what the Jakaleel subcult does and doesn't allow.

So the Lunar Magic section tells me that characters with a Moon Phase rune can use it to create Glamours that mimic Rune magic, spells, or spirit charms. Doing so directly rather than as an augment is a Stretch unless the character is an initiate of a New God and using the glamour appropriately to that New God or is using a Lunar Grimoire.

So far so good. The Seven Mothers subcults on page 190 are where I get confused. There's a "Magic" line that for most of them says "Evocations, Glamours, Grimoires". OK - it gives examples of appropriate types of magic for each Rune, so we learn that an Initiate of Teelo Norri will use Fire glamours differently than an Initiate of Irrippi Ontor. I'm not sure why Glamours are listed separately, since as I understood it all Lunar magic is glamour. I'm also not sure why Grimoires are explicitly called out, since Lunar Grimoires aren't otherwise tied to a subcult - it seems you can use a Lunar Grimoire just fine without initiating, right? But at least it communicates what sort of non-Stretch glamours the New God provides.

But then there's Jakaleel. Her cult lists "Spirit Magic, Lunes" as its type of magic. What is that supposed to mean? Do her initiates not use glamours at all? Do they not use Lunar Grimoires? Both of those sound odd to me for the "Mistress of Black Magic", but then again she doesn't have cult strictures or a Little Sister version. Does her (exclusive) listing of Spirit Magic and Lunes mean that the other subcults don't in fact provide Charms, or ally with Lunes?

The Dying Moon rune can replace Spirit, and the subcult notes that it will be the keyword for the Lunar Tradition. Are Jakaleel initiates exclusively Spirit magicians, then? And if so, is there much difference between their practices and what you'd see from a non-Lunar Spirit Magician? We know they're tied to the Lunar cycle - do they retain any of the cross-school flexibility of the other subcults, or even non-Initiated Lunar magicians?

Edited April 22, 2018 by Unferth

[Runeblogger]

IMHO, initiates of Jakaleel only use spirit magic and summon Lunes through their Dying Moon rune. They are mostly like non-Lunar animists who can bind Lunar spirits into charms. Jakaleel the Witch was herself a shaman. So their initiates use these spirits normally and then perhaps all the glamours of the other Seven Mothers.

[Tarumath]

On 22/04/2018 at 4:11 PM, Runeblogger said:

IMHO, initiates of Jakaleel only use spirit magic and summon Lunes through their Dying Moon rune. They are mostly like non-Lunar animists who can bind Lunar spirits into charms. Jakaleel the Witch was herself a shaman. So their initiates use these spirits normally and then perhaps all the glamours of the other Seven Mothers.

That's how I interpret it too and I remember some fluff about how Jakaleel initiates are pure traditionnal animists instead of being eclectic like most lunars.

Obviously they can learn lunar grimoires under another of their Runes, as independant spells, improvise Glamours of their phase with the usual stretches and get other phases if they are illuminated but their Dying Phase "only" has access to the spirits of the lunar tradition, not all of them being Lunes. 

Like other animist traditions, they integrate spirits from various Spirit Societies.

Most other lunar immortals instead indistinctly give Grimoires, Evocations and Lunes based on their powers. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Tarumath

[Joerg]

They integrate spirits - do you mean into the array of contactable spirits, or do they fuse their magical self with that spirit, inheriting its powers?

The way I have read the HQ animism rules, spirits are offered temporary housings that allow them to taste the material world, but aren't becoming part of the self of the spirit magician. That's somewhat different to the impression I get from absorbing a spell spirit's knowledge in RQ3.

The Spindle Hag - she is the thread-maker. Does this get reflected in her magics? It certainly does say something about how all those previous moon goddesses were co-opted into the current one.

[Tarumath]

They work the same way as other animists, "integrating spirits" is just a term used about all animists for them making relationships with spirits. (ie getting new charms)

[David Scott]

On 22/04/2018 at 3:39 AM, Unferth said:

But then there's Jakaleel. Her cult lists "Spirit Magic, Lunes" as its type of magic. What is that supposed to mean?

Jalakeel's cult is the home of the Lunar spirit tradition. It's her cult that teaches contact with lunar spirits and their otherworld on the moon. Her Seven Mothers subcult is actually the full cult of Jakaleel. Her shamans work with all spirits, but are skilled at obtaining the aid of the lunar ones and specifically Lunes and occasionlly selenes.

I didn't realise that this version was an edited down version of the Pavis GtA one, if you don't have access to that this should help:

Quote

As founder of the Lunar Tradition, not only does she teach a path of walking in the spirit world, but also she is the path to the Lunar spirit realm and the Goddess’s Lunes. In the Seven Mothers there are no spirit worshippers of any of the phases as only those who have the Moon Rune can perceive the true reality of this realm and not be driven mad.

Quote

Kindled initiates with spirits and not souls use their Moon Rune Phase (all phases) or their Spirit Rune as their Lunar Tradition keyword (see HeroQuest Core Rules page 112). Typically, kindled initiates swap their Spirit Rune for the Dying Phase and so automatically join the Jakaleel Spirit Society.

Due to Jakaleel’s unique relationship to the Lunar tradition, Spirit Society members are treated as though they belong to the cult of a Lunar Immortal with strictures derived from the taboos of individual Lunes. As an Immortal, Jakaleel also imposes the standard stricture to never use the Moon Rune as the Chaos Rune.

In Sartar and Civilized Prax, the Jakaleel spirit society uses the Seven Moons form. Some examples of Jakaleel spirits include:

Full Moon lunes: These are sedate manifestations of the Divine Intellect, spreading understanding and placing things in their correct place in the Cosmos. The stricture of their charms is to wear a silver full moon rune around you neck.

Empty Half Moon lunes: These are demons of vengeance and balance that rend their enemies with razor-sharp attacks. The stricture of their charms is always dress in black.

Full Half lunes: Full Half lunes: These are spirits of defense and purification that manifest as holy fires. The stricture of these charms is to always defend an innocent.

Dying Moon lunes: These mind-bending manifestations of the Dying Moon cause madness, remarkable inspiration, or both. The stricture of these charms is always tend to the dead.

Crescent Go lunes: These virtuous manifestations of innocence and fertility are used to bless and heal. The stricture of these charms is always sleep on the earth.

Crescent Come lunes: These demons are wild and passionate hunters that can track any prey. The stricture of their charms is to pursue any prey until it is caught.

Jakaleel cultists also summon the spirits of the dead. The spirits are almost always hostile but can be bound into the cultist’s service.

Lunes are described on page 184 and Selenes on page 86. On the same page in the example the Lunar sorcerer Magathius summons a Selene by accident.

I would consider the Pavis version the original version except where it conflicts with heroquest glorantha.

On 22/04/2018 at 3:39 AM, Unferth said:

Do her initiates not use glamours at all?

The Dying Phase has no glamours associated with it. However it is possible to use another phase to access lunar spirit charms (see above).

Look at Magatheus in the sample character section. He could break out relevant charms from his Full Moon Phase. He would also have to start spreading his hero points to power another form of magic, which overall makes your character weaker in heroquest. But that's not to say it doesn't happen. He would then have access to glamours as well.

On 22/04/2018 at 3:39 AM, Unferth said:

Do they not use Lunar Grimoires?

They can, all lunars can use Lunar grimoires and hang them off their phase, but only if it matches. 

On 22/04/2018 at 3:39 AM, Unferth said:

Both of those sound odd to me for the "Mistress of Black Magic", but then again she doesn't have cult strictures or a Little Sister version. Does her (exclusive) listing of Spirit Magic and Lunes mean that the other subcults don't in fact provide Charms, or ally with Lunes?

Other subcults get their charms from her. Jakaleel is a very singular cult.

This all changes once you gain the Moon rune itself (normally after gaining the Black Phase) you can use all Lunar magic from all phases.

If you've any other questions about this please ask. I did a lot of work for Pavis and HQG on this.

[David Scott]

14 hours ago, Tarumath said:

"only" has access to the spirits of the lunar tradition

As a shaman you can interact with all spirits. Your tradition spirits are like to are normally friendly, others neutral or perhaps even hostile - it depends what you offer them. For example looking at the Praxian tradition you can see that The Red School of Masks is part of the Lunar tradition in Prax, along with The Twinstars. Shamans there can easily access charms from Moonbroth, and other moon rune spirits in the region. Jakaleel cultists in Prax can access spirits with the Moon Rune (Hidden Ancestor) Sky Rune (Hidden Ancestor), Darkness (Jakaleel), All phases (Jakaleel), Full Half Moon phase (Twinstars) Within the Twinstars & Hidden Ancestor are also other spirits that provide a few specialist charms - Water & moon (moonbroth). moon & plant (redwood), Moon and Movement (silver deer), these cases the Moon rune normal indicates that the magic is cyclic in some form.

 

 

[Tarumath]

Are their Dying Phase completely working like the Spirit Rune or are they limited to spirits of their tradition and spirits with the moon rune?

[David Scott]

30 minutes ago, Tarumath said:

Are their Dying Phase completely working like the Spirit Rune

Yes

30 minutes ago, Tarumath said:

or are they limited to spirits of their tradition and spirits with the moon rune?

Yes, unless they are a shaman or if not find a non-lunar shaman to get a charm from. 

[Yelm's Light]

Minor quibble, but Chalana Arroy is misspelled in the Praxian Tradition image.

[Unferth]

Interesting, thanks! Especially for the details from P:GTA. That is definitely more detailed than the HQ: G version. Is that Praxian Tradition diagram from a published or forthcoming book? That looks like the kind of information I'd find useful understanding better how spirit magic works.

On 4/24/2018 at 9:09 AM, David Scott said:

Her shamans work with all spirits, but are skilled at obtaining the aid of the lunar ones and specifically Lunes and occasionlly selenes.

So initiates might work with lunes of all phases, hanging them off the embodied Spirit rune just as a more conventional spirit worshipper might? That's a nice degree of flexibility.

On 4/24/2018 at 9:09 AM, David Scott said:

The Dying Phase has no glamours associated with it.

Hmm. That I didn't quite get from the HQ:G writeup, maybe it's just a consequence of trying to fit a quirky Lunar magic system into a book that's not really about playing Lunars. It seems - based just on what's written in HQ: G - that a character with the rune should be able to EG use a Glamour based on the embodied Harmony rune, maybe soothing suffering or anger. Without a relevant New God cult teaching it's a Stretch, and it's directly using a Rune keyword for magic so it's broad unless the character pays to specialize the ability, but allowed to describe supernatural effects. Right?

Maybe I should just get P:GTA and read the version there.

On 4/24/2018 at 9:09 AM, David Scott said:

Look at Magatheus in the sample character section. He could break out relevant charms from his Full Moon Phase. He would also have to start spreading his hero points to power another form of magic, which overall makes your character weaker in heroquest. But that's not to say it doesn't happen. He would then have access to glamours as well.

He's spending extra hero points because he's buying new breakout abilities rather than concentrating on his grimoires or rune rating, right? Is there something I'm overlooking that would make adding a Full Moon Lune's Charm or a cult-appropriate Glamour more expensive to add than a new grimoire, or adding a spell to an existing grimoire? It seems like it's all dependent on his Full Moon phase unless he goes for standalone abilities, so it's just a question of what best fits the described effect.

Well, I guess if he buys up the Grimoire ability above the +1 it starts at new spells start higher. But from a points perspective that only helps if you never want magic outside that grimoire, otherwise you might as well just spend the 2 for the rune increase instead.

 

[David Scott]

11 hours ago, Unferth said:

So initiates might work with lunes of all phases, hanging them off the embodied Spirit rune just as a more conventional spirit worshipper might? That's a nice degree of flexibility.

Yes if have a spirit rune and a phase, otherwise no.

11 hours ago, Unferth said:

Hmm. That I didn't quite get from the HQ:G writeup,

HQG Page 191 Dying Moon:

Quote

Magic: Spirit Magic, Lunes. (The Dying Phase is used as the Keyword for the Lunar Tradition)

All the others say Evocations, Glamours, Grimoires for Magic except for the Black Moon which has no magic, except illumination.

11 hours ago, Unferth said:

Without a relevant New God cult teaching it's a Stretch, and it's directly using a Rune keyword for magic so it's broad unless the character pays to specialize the ability, but allowed to describe supernatural effects. Right?

YGMV, however In theory you can do that with a Rune, but a Phase isn't a whole rune. I would not allow players to use Phases in this way as it mimics that they aren't real gods.

11 hours ago, Unferth said:

Is there something I'm overlooking that would make adding a Full Moon Lune's Charm or a cult-appropriate Glamour more expensive to add than a new grimoire, or adding a spell to an existing grimoire? It seems like it's all dependent on his Full Moon phase unless he goes for standalone abilities, so it's just a question of what best fits the described effect.

A different lune would either be stand alone or he'd have become illuminated and access other phases that way.

[David Scott]

11 hours ago, Unferth said:

Is that Praxian Tradition diagram from a published or forthcoming book?

It's a sketch to show relationships in the upcoming Prax book although unlikely to be shown in this form. There's a thread on it here:

 

[Unferth]

12 hours ago, David Scott said:

Yes if have a spirit rune and a phase, otherwise no.

Would Dying Moon substitute for the Spirit Rune here? EG a Jakaleel initiate with the Dying Moon phase but no Spirit rune wants a charm from a Full Moon Lune. Is that a standalone ability, or a breakout from their Dying Moon phase?

12 hours ago, David Scott said:

YGMV, however In theory you can do that with a Rune, but a Phase isn't a whole rune. I would not allow players to use Phases in this way as it mimics that they aren't real gods.

For now I'm just trying to understand the rules as presented, not varying things yet!

I had been under the impression that even without initiating into a New God cult, someone with a Moon Phase can create Glamours from it if they accept the Stretch penalty - p. 182 is where I'm getting this idea:

"A Lunar magician can use her Lunar Phase to create glamours mimicking the runes that Phase can replace. The direct use of the Lunar Phase incurs a Stretch penalty of -6 (see page 103) - unless: (1) the Lunar is an initiate of a Lunar New God cult and is creating glamours in accordance with the teachings of that New God; or (2) is using a Lunar Grimoire. The use of the Lunar Phase as an augment does not incur a Stretch penalty."

So my interpretation of that text had been that anyone with a Lunar Phase can use those rules to create Stretch supernatural effects, and then that initiating to a New God makes appropriate glamours not a stretch. (So evocations within the defined parameters for most, and charms for Jakaleel? I guess glamour charms remain stretches for those not initiated into the Jakeleel cult? Kind of a tangent though.) People who have their phase kindled via the Seven Mothers cult as a whole and don't initiate into a subcult or into an independent New God cult like Yara Aranis would have all their glamours as stretches unless they're using a grimoire, as would a subcult initiate creating a glamour that matches their rune phase but not their cult teachings or a grimoire. If these rules are even intended to cover non-subcult Seven Mothers members, anyway - on the one hand the Lunar Cults section on p. 184 talks about kindling that way, on the other the Seven Mothers Initiates section only covers gaining the Lunar Phase via direct initiation to a subcult.

The Seven Mothers subcult writeups are pretty clear, it's mostly just that one paragraph about glamours mimicking the replaced runes apparently being open to all Lunar magicians that leaves things unclear for me at this point.

Anyway, thanks again for your help! I worry that this sounds argumentative or demanding and I don't mean to be that.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Unferth

[davecake]

On 4/24/2018 at 11:36 PM, David Scott said:

As a shaman you can interact with all spirits. Your tradition spirits are like to are normally friendly, others neutral or perhaps even hostile

You can always, as a shaman, interact with a spirit should you happen to meet it. 

Not every shaman (though the majority) can travel freely on the Spirit Plane, so some may have to encounter a spirit in the physical world to interact with it. The big examples here are Kygor Litor and Aldrya shamans, both of whom travel into the Underworld rather than the whole Spirit Plane. They also both 1) in RQ3 can only bind certain spirits to their fetch and 2) in HQG, probably use a rune other than the Spirit Rune (Darkness and Plant respectively) for their magic. 

Even if a shaman does have the ability to travel freely on the Spirit Plane, the spirit plane is a complicated and dangerous place and getting to the part of the Spirit plane where a particular type of spirit can be contacted might be too difficult for most shamans to attempt, especially if it is a hostile spirit. 

Jakaleel shamans may have some of these restrictions, I'm not sure - can they freely travel to non-Lunar parts of the Spirit Plane?

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Jakaleel shamans may have some of these restrictions, I'm not sure - can they freely travel to non-Lunar parts of the Spirit Plane?

Jalakeel was a shaman before becoming a Lunar Immortal, there are no limitation on Lunar shaman. In essence, the secret of the Lunar Tradition is that they can access another hidden spirit world.

[davecake]

6 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Jalakeel was a shaman before becoming a Lunar Immortal, there are no limitation on Lunar shaman.

Several of the Seven Mothers were experienced magicians before becoming Lunar Immortals, it doesn't necessarily follow that they can fully share those powers with their followers.  But sure, if Jakaleel tradition is such that it has general access to the Spirit Plane, fine. In game terms, I guess that is the Dying Phase acts as the Spirit Rune for purposes of accessing the Spirit Plane, not just Lunar spirits. Which would make spirit travel problematic on Dying or Black moon days. It sounds as if the Jakaleel tradition has essentially no friendly non-Lunar spirits in any case. 

In contrast eg a Red School of Masks shaman might have the Spirit Rune and their Lunar phase replaces a different rune, thus having no limits to their spirit travel outside the Glowline. 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Jalakeel was a shaman before becoming a Lunar Immortal, there are no limitation on Lunar shaman. In essence, the secret of the Lunar Tradition is that they can access another hidden spirit world.

True, but given the other David's observation of Darkness shamans and Jakaleel's obvious underworld connections, what school of shamanism did she come from? Horse nomad? Uz-related? Wendarian? Some other?

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

it doesn't necessarily follow that they can fully share those powers with their followers

Looking at the structure of the shamanic worldview in our world gives us insight into how it works Glorantha. Firstly there is a three worlds model which is present in many cultures: the Upper World, the Middle World and the Lower World.

The Upper World is another realm, which often includes sky objects like the sun and the moon and the sky. It's generally access by going up passing through the clouds, etc. The Upper World goes by many different names depending on the culture: Sky World for example

The Lower World is another realm, which often includes things within the Earth, caves, lava, etc. But often contains distinct separate areas. Some cultures for example believe that the land of the dead is in the lower world. But others believe that it's separate realm from the realms listed here, some believe it's in the sky. There is no hard and fast map. The Lower World also goes by many different names depending on the culture: Underworld, Hel, Hell, etc.

Some cultures believe there is gradation in the upper world and lower world. For example the Altai Believe that there are 11 levels of the Upper World and 11 levels of the Lower World. Shaman's access levels 7 to 11 whilst normal people can only access levels 1 to 6. I met an 11th level Altai Upper World shaman. The 11th level is when you are a cosmic shaman, on a par with Buddha and Jesus. (his words), lower levels of shaman can't get here.

The Middle World corresponds to the spirit world of our world and generally matches it in geography (confusingly Greg called Glorantha the middle world and then has the spirit world lying on top of it.) This is where the spirits of plants and animals and rocks and rivers can be found. Most shaman are limited to the geographic area that they working unless they travel. The middle World also goes by many different names depending on the culture: Dreamtime for example.

Places like the Sun and the moon may also exist in two worlds. The sun and Moon are clearly in the Middle World, bur can in some cultures be in the Upper or Lower world as well.

Add into this that not all shaman work in all the worlds. For example in the Amazon most shaman work in the middle world with plants and insects. In other places they only access the upper or lower world or both or just the middle world or just the land of the dead. The Altai have Upper World shaman and lower world shaman, but no middle world ones.

Applying this to Gloranthan shamanism means that most shaman work in geographic areas so for example Jalakeel came from the Jord Mountains and so it's likely that her society is familiar with the spirits local to that area. However her society is key to the lunar tradition now, so likely is able to work with spirits across the whole of the Empire (we are all us), also aspects of the underworld. The society's big secret being she knows how to access the spirit world of the Red moon.

[David Scott]

33 minutes ago, Joerg said:

True, but given the other David's observation of Darkness shamans and Jakaleel's obvious underworld connections, what school of shamanism did she come from? Horse nomad? Uz-related? Wendarian? Some other?

Pavis GtA page 405:

Quote

She was a great shaman of the Before Dark Tradition in the mountains of Jord before she joined the conspiracy of the Seven Mothers; she is now teaches the Lunar Tradition for spirit magicians. This cult also explores the diverse horrors and solaces contained in the secrets of the Underworld.

RQG also tells us

Quote

and was once a priestess of Zorak Zoran

GS page 149

Quote

Jakaleel the Witch was once a shaman-priestess of dark powers in the mountains of Jord

In the picture on page 151 she seems to have troll like teeth, but appears human.

Given the way shamanism works she could be the creator of her own style, and given that there are no priestesses of Zorak Zoran she's clearly special in her own right. Her animistic origins will likely be formed by the history of the Jord Mountains which seems to talk only of Dwarves, Krasht and Sheng.

[davecake]

On 5/1/2018 at 7:06 PM, David Scott said:

Looking at the structure of the shamanic worldview in our world gives us insight into how it works Glorantha. Firstly there is a three worlds model which is present in many cultures: the Upper World, the Middle World and the Lower World.

While I think this is true in the generic case, Jakaleel, whose primary shamanic connection is to a fourth world that hovers stationary in the air, is always going to be an exception that is outside that system, the question is how. 

I've seen nothing that says to me that Jakaleel necessarily has connections outside the Underworld, as all her other connections seem to be to Darkness or the dead. 

That said, their spirit travelling ability might be cyclical too. 

[Joerg]

The mountains of Jord may not get much extra history, but their origin story (shorn off the Hungry Plateau by the Earth Walker named Gerendetho) does offer a few other links besides dwarves, krarshtkids and Sheng's occupation. From the scale of geography moved around by the myth, this is comparable to the Footprint or seeding Kero Fin (both performed by the Walker named Larnste), or Argan Argar's leveling of Veskarthan's great mountain north of Choralinthor into the Shadow Plateau (never quite specifying where all that stuff went).

"Before Dark" is quite an ambiguous term, that could be read like Predark (the Orlanthi term for ancient Chaos, as opposed to Chaos since the Unholy Trio), "before the Darkness Age" (i.e. Storm Age or earlier in Godtime), or "The Dark That Was Before", which is what feels most on track with what Jakaleel stands for. Possibly Subere or even deeper.

[Tarumath]

If I understand the rules, moon shamen only get five free charms if they choose the Spirit Rune as their third rune, even if they base their tradition on their dying phase moon rune?