BRP Supers vs Other Supers RPGs

[Kairos]

Does anyone have any thoughts about how BRP Supers might compete with the very number-crunchy and popular Mutants and Masterminds or my old-time favorite DC Heroes? Both of these point-based systems are/were quite flexible to accommodate the variety in the comic book genre. BRP, on the other hand, seems to trade this sort of flexibility (and complexity) for the consistency and simplicity for which it is known (which is no bad thing).

I've had a look at the excellent City of Heroes writeup done by Fergo113, but do you see a future for the Super Powers aspect of BRP or do you think BRP is more fit for fantasy/modern horror games given the shadow that M&M casts? Is the Super Powers section too limited to take off?

K

[LivingTriskele]

I think that with work, BRP could equal M&M. I have a personal preference for 'point-buy' systems like M&M, GURPS, and HERO System, and suspect (probably based upon my prejudice) that an optional BRP point-based system would help. More importantly though, someone needs to come up with a more detailed selection of powers and power modifiers. Just my humble opinion.

I've begun work on a point-buy system modeled after GURPS and HERO System, though whether I ever finish it is another thing all together...

[Kairos]

I love the idea of BRP rivaling M&M! I agree -- I think that the powers list would need to be greatly expanded. I wonder, too, if the existing powers listed in the book need to be broken down into more component pieces or if it's more productive to create "power packages."

It seems the best super hero rpgs are point-buy systems. The old Marvel Super Heroes used table-rolling to determine powers (although we always used to just select powers). I seem to recall random rolling often ended up with vastly different power level in the party.

I'd love to see what you come up with eventually...if life/time allows, I'll put up what I come up with too.

K

[PK Games]

I prefer Superworld over M&M, but if I am to play any form of supers, its DC/Blood of Heroes. Accept no substitute.

You could use the RQ OGL rules and M&M Superlink to create a interesting hybrid of BRP and M&M.

Chaosium still sells the Superworld PDFs I highly recommend them if your intent is to use BRP for super hero games.

[sladethesniper]

I would say that Superworld + City of Heroes would work quite well. For me, though, I would say POW x 10 = Hero points, instead of all stats added together. I prefer to have Powers be bought with Power, I suppose.

They seem very compatible with each other and mixed with the normal BRP ease of play, should be quite capable of handling any sort of super hero campaign.

At the risk of being branded a heretic...some of Palladium titles (Heroes Unlimited, Ninjas and Superspies) can be easily converted to BRP...especially for villains...

:happy:

-STS

[Atgxtg]

Having run, played, and coverted characters over from one super hero RPG to another over the years, I can say that for BRP to compete in the SuperHero RPG niche will be tough.

Many, superhero RPGs are based on rules systems that are designed to mimic the world(s) of the comics. BRP Supers, is adapting a fairly "gritty/realistic" ruleset to the genre.

This means that the style of play will be a bit different that, say, the old DC Heroes or any of the three Marvel RPGs.

One thing that those old system had going for them was the setting. IF people want to play in the Marvel or DC universe, then the official RPGs have a big edge.

BRP would need some sort of setting or two, and a strong line of supplements to compete with M&M, and I doubt that will happen. Since BRP is a geeric system, it will probably need to establish itself in other genres first (fantasy, sci-fi) that have a wider fanbase.

[Steve Mitchell]

Something that would be fun to see would be a BRP Supers version of Ken Hite's Adventures into Darkness. AiD is already available in two versions, one statted for Mutants & Masterminds, the other statted for Truth & Justice. But given the Lovecraftian origins of the villains in AiD, a BRP conversion seems like a natural.

[PK Games]

You would definately need to find a license to hitch BRP Supers to first to get it noticed. Perhaps Robert Kirkman's Invincible or Erik Larsens Savage Dragon or even MacFarland's Spawn would work.

Ive always liked the idea of a Lovecraftian Supers game, using elements from Stormbringer, Superworld and Call of Cthulhu. Could be great fun, sort of Dr. Strange, Ghost Rider, Spectre, Vertigo, Spawn setting or style. Course if you do it wrong it becomes a Powers Ranger feeling game and if dead wrong, it becomes Bible Man.

But might be worth a look at.

[LivingTriskele]

I'm beginning to work on a BRP point-buy system. I've decided to use Champions a the primary model (followed closely by GURPS).

I'm beginning with BRP's Character Point Budget and combining it with the optional Point-Based Character Creation system described on page 19.

One of the bigger questions is "what is the value of a character point in BRP?"

I am assuming that the points used to buy powers and the points used to buy Characteristics are of equal value. Thus I've come up with the following starting point amounts

Normal: 10 + 24 = 34

Heroic: 20 + 36 = 56

Epic: 35 + 48 = 83

Super Human: 50 + 60 = 110

Before getting into the viper's nest of confronting derived characteristics, advantages, disadvantages, additional super powers and power modifiers, special equipment etc, I think that BRPs disparate power systems (magic, mutations, psychic abilities and sorcery) need to be addressed.

At this point (and in my admitted lack of experience with the system) I'm inclined to apply a cost of ten points each for the ability to use magic and psychic abilities (like the magery advantage in GURPS). These ten point 'advantages' allow a player to purchase spells or psychic abilities using their skill points (as determined by EDU, INT and the Super Skill super power). A price of ten points may be steep-- let me know what you think.

The ability to use sorcery would also require an advantage costing ten points but as each sorcery spell is not skill-based, instead this advantage would be requisite for specific powers defined as 'sorcery spells', only usable by individuals with the 'ten-point sorcery advantage'.

Regarding mutations, I would apply a point cost to them as if they were powers, (or in some cases disadvantages).

This is the virtual skeleton from which I plan to hang a point-buy system. All feedback is welcome.

[LivingTriskele]

You would definately need to find a license to hitch BRP Supers to first to get it noticed. Perhaps Robert Kirkman's Invincible or Erik Larsens Savage Dragon or even MacFarland's Spawn would work.

I'm personally not one for settings based upon literature or movies (I don't know why this is, because there's a ton of great material out there). But recently I've become completely hooked to the television series 'Heroes' (been getting them on Netflix). I love how having a super power in that series doesn't necessarily make you a insanely powerful. There's a lot of grit, with supers dying left and right. Seems perfect for BRP.

[marcellus praxis]

For playing supers, the lack of subdual damage system in BRP may be a serious issue.

Otherwise, IMHO, BRP with ads/disads and a vast array of powers could compete with M&M...at least in term of game system.

[LivingTriskele]

There's Stunning and Subduing rules on page 232, though I haven't read them yet.

[sladethesniper]

I guess I have my next project...been thinking of a supers type setting for a while. I have a lot of love for the genre, but the "official" settings quickly get unmanagable with regard to continuity.

I'll see what I can do. Give me a year and I'll put it out for Christmas '09 :happy: It will be free, and in BRP.

-STS

[LivingTriskele]

Right on. Looking forward to it!

I started one in 1999, a gritty sort of alternative noir now. Originally it was for Hero System, but as much as I respect that set of rules-- too much math Was going to try it with GURPS, but again, all that p++ damage whatever was too much. Looked at Mutants and Masterminds but by then was tired of d20.

[sladethesniper]

The hardest part about doing a super hero genre is the amount of "realism" to put into it. I am not a big fan of subdual damage and Codes Against Killing so common in 4-color comics.

MilSpec (the name of the new setting) will borrow heavily from Superworld and GURPS Supers, but will retain the lethality inherent in the BRP system. I like the feel of Heroes, specifically the fact that just because they have powers, they are not all automatically bulletproof.

Also, I will stay away from time-travelling abilities, just a personal dislike.

-STS

[LivingTriskele]

Yeah, I agree. That's another reason why I steered away from Hero system. You spend an entire evening beating on your enemies and no one gets killed (usually). GURPS can have that gritty feel. No doubt BRP would!

[sladethesniper]

That was the main reason I stopped playing Hero! That and the template character was always a striker with a CAK and Full Life Support! Boring.

I am going for a Punisher/Watchmen type feel.

-STS

[LivingTriskele]

Heh, I finally just read Watchmen. Was totally blown away.

[sladethesniper]

Watchmen is a real classic. Goes along with Sin City and Return of the Black Knight. I am really pulled towards the gritty realist protrayal of "heroes" as opposed to the 4-color style.

The question of "why" a character chooses to be a hero/vigilante is central to the genre. Just being different is not enough. There has to be an impetus for it, especially when the costs of doing the job are revealed.

I mean, making that choice effectively and permanently removes oneself from the mainstream of society. To make that choice requires something more than "I can fly" or "I want to help people".

Think about it. If the character is motivated by service, be a cop. If they are motivated by anti-heroic delusions, be a soldier.

In my setting, I am going to want to have a definite line that exists between normals and heroes, and I don't want it to be "powers" based. The "have powers, will hero" seems a bit trite.

Also, I think that simply having a "hero" be "better" than normals is bit retarded as well. Just because someone can fly doesn't mean that a two-bit punk with a shotgun can't kill him...

I want to have skill level/lethality be independent of powers. I know some incredibly lethal people that given a fight between them and Wolverine, would kill the hairy canadian quite easily.

Granted, I think a portion of the super hero genre's popularity is the "I'm different/better" perspective that it breeds.

Oh, well, enough ranting.

-STS

[Nightshade]

The big issue you're going to run into is that its going to be very hard to do two things with a BRP Supers game:

1. Handle high powered supers well. The system is too focused on making human-scale characters work well to really handle high end superhumans well.

2. Support non-gritty settings well. This is the single thing most of BRP's design is biased away from. Even when not using either hit locations or major wounds, and using the Fortune Point system, its relatively easy to die in BRP, and most character will fail to avoid being hit a lot.

There are incidental problems--Jason's rework of the Superworld protections was bluntly, not one of his best ideas; it makes it very difficult to build anyone who has significant protection against the range of possible attacks he could be dealing with in a supers setting. Changing it back would be one of the first things I'd do.

Now it may be possible to make a decent gritty supers setting out of it, but past that you'd need to do some fairly significant changes in several rules (its instructive to look at the difference in how Superworld II handled hit points and damage for example).

[Atgxtg]

I think Nightshade just hit the Bullseye.

And, unfortunately also exposed BRP's "Achilles Heel"-specfically that an earlier RQ-based BRP product that has been customized for a specfic genre probably handles it better than the newest, but generic BRP.

I suspect than as/if we see more setting source books produced for BRP, we will see a lot more optional rules to adapt BRP to better handle those settings. Basically what Chaosium used to do with each of their different RPGs. A supers book would probably need to diverge considerably from the core rules to have the proper "flavor" for supers.

[sladethesniper]

Although I see the problem of "system breaking" characters and the lethality of BRP, I think they help to focus the genre I am going for...

I am not a big believer of Superman-level characters and Galactus-level enemies...

I will have some rules for that level of power, but they will be RARE and 99% of them will be NPC's.

Think Cyberpunk 2020 meets The Watchmen...

-STS

[LivingTriskele]

I definitely go more for the gritty super hero genre myself (on of the reasons why I preferred GURPS over Hero System). And I agree considerable work needs to be done in order bring BRP up to the super hero genre. But considering BRP's most basic core elements, I really think it's possible to pull off. I really wish I could had two laptops, two brains and four arms to contribute to the cause.

Incidentally, I've only just started watching the Heroes TV series (through Netflix). I'm sure most everybody else has seen it, but to me it's new-- very gritty and realistic for the genre.

[Atgxtg]

That's just it, the style of play is everything. If you are looking to run a fairely realistic camapign with heroes who are only slightly more than human, BRP works grreat. Use one or more of the "hero point" and you can get a good system for running characters like Batman, Captain America, Daredevil, Iron Fist, THe Question, the Spirit, the Green Hornet, maybe even up to the level of Spider-Man.

But that is not the style used in a typical comic, especially for a group of heroes. Nor is it the style that the typical Super RPG gamer going to expect. To compete with games like M&M, BRP will need a the style of play/paradigm similar to that of Justice League or the Avengers.

Heroes Unlimited proved just how unfun, "gritty & realistic supers" can be, with the PCs wanted on manslaughter charges after each adventure.

But if the players are clued in, you can do some pretty cool stuff with BRP Superpowers. Just expect the occasional punch to crtical and cripple or possibly even kill somebody.

[LivingTriskele]

Yeah, as much as I love realism I understand how other people can go for more cinematic games. With Hero System they accomplish that with basically two kinds of hit points Stun and Body. By default most attacks do stun and maybe a little Body at the same time, but you're far more likely to get knocked out before you get killed. Unless you encourage everyone to make characters with Killing Attacks, that do more Body damage, and subsequently live up to their name. I think a similar optional system could be created for BRP, maybe using fatigue. No doubt about it, it's a lot of work. In order to bring BRP 'up to date' with more modern 'generic' RPG systems, someone is going to have to break the bones of the entire system and reset them. It's not going to happen anytime soon, if it all, and probably would be met with some animosity. But I think it's totally possible--then I'm a hopeless romantic :happy: