BRP Supers vs Other Supers RPGs

[sladethesniper]

That's just it, the style of play is everything. If you are looking to run a fairely realistic camapign with heroes who are only slightly more than human, BRP works grreat. Use one or more of the "hero point" and you can get a good system for running characters like Batman, Captain America, Daredevil, Iron Fist, THe Question, the Spirit, the Green Hornet, maybe even up to the level of Spider-Man.

But that is not the style used in a typical comic, especially for a group of heroes. Nor is it the style that the typical Super RPG gamer going to expect. To compete with games like M&M, BRP will need a the style of play/paradigm similar to that of Justice League or the Avengers.

Heroes Unlimited proved just how unfun, "gritty & realistic supers" can be, with the PCs wanted on manslaughter charges after each adventure.

But if the players are clued in, you can do some pretty cool stuff with BRP Superpowers. Just expect the occasional punch to crtical and cripple or possibly even kill somebody.

Well, I am going to have a definite split between sanctioned and unsanctioned heroes. Unsanctioned are vigilantes and seen as criminals. They will be the "street level" heroes. Sactioned heroes are the Big Boys, full conversion borgs, vat grown ninjas, eugenics bred psionics, Divine Agents, half-aliens, cabal mages, etc.

Sanctioned heroes will be powerful, but...essentially functionally retarded. That is the choice the players will have to make. Be Powerful or Be Skillful...

For instance, the Divine Agents can't drive, Cabal Mages freak everyone out, eugenic psions don't understand "privacy". The reason for this is that the higher ups of these organizations don't want skilled superbeings running around unchecked. Also, the "brain" can only do so many things, and controlling powers takes a lot of mental focus...at least that is going to be my angle on it.

Basically, I am giving players a choice...was the PC "created" to be a hero and what does that mean...a live of slavery to imperatives that you can not fight?

OR

Was the PC driven to become a hero, and how do they continue to fight on against law, public opinion and utterly alone day after day after day.

Also, I don't want "normals" to = "useless" as they do in many RPG's of many genres. I want even the powerful created capes to fear a cop with Glock 30...or an MP5 or if he's in Rio, a Benelli Super 90 (and honestly, if you can't kill Spidey with a Super 90, you are not using it right :happy: )

meh...that's my idea anyway.

-STS

[Atgxtg]

slade,

I think one problem you are going to have to deal with is that BRP Supers will play a lot like what professional wrestling would be like if those guys really did start slamming each other heads into concrete. One hit from a guy with a good db and it's all over.

That works on PCs too. Even a successful parry might not help much if "Mr. Powerful" makes that 25% attack roll. BRP has inheritend a problem from RQ that a hit from anything big and strong usually just kills a PC rather than hurt him.

ANd those powerfuol guys do learn and raise thier skills a lot faster than the skilled folk can become superpowered. THe comics cheat to keep things running smoothly but in a fairly realistic RPG, like BRP, Superman takes down Batman before the caped crusader can even think "kryptonite."

[sladethesniper]

Atgxtg,

I agree with you whole heartedly on the lethality issue, but not so much on the powers going up quickly...

While I do agree that "super powers" are a sticky thing in a supers RPG, there has to be a way to level them somewhat.

I really don't want to want to do a simulation of Superman, primarily because I find that level of power in RPG's just...disagreeable, I suppose. Instead of launching into a tirade against superman level characters, suffice it to say that I wouldn't really even try to model that onto a game. I would say that the "limit" would be Iron Man/X-Man level.

Having PC's that shrug off tank rounds (much less nuclear weapons) take games into the "I won't play that" territory for me. Granted, when pitted against Mighty Cthulhu, a superpowered game seems a bit wimpy by comparison.

Also, with a proper scaling mechanic (such as Palladium's MDC) it is do-able for those that wish, but again, it would see a "re-tooling" of the BRP toolkit that might not be to everyone's liking. Admittedly, I make settings for myself (hence why they are free, no one would pay for them ;-( ), but I think it is possible. In my current project, I have made allowances for ridiculous power levels (my Brother is an Uber-Munchkin and likes to break systems, so I had to allow for that), but I wouldn't play in that milleau given the choice.

To my mind a super powered AND highly skilled character should be roughly equivalent to a modern IFV and a "Superman" type character would pretty much tap out as a modern tank. As a justification for the deadliness of Supers level combat, I offer modern weapon systems. I mean, when fighting a tank, people die...unless you have specialized weapon systems or a whole LOT of people to attack it. Evil genius in his hideout? 16" cannons firing AP rounds, TLAMs, MOABs, etc. All very lethal and unless you are a deity, getting hit by those "should" kill anything.

Moving planets and light-speed capable flight are in the "no thanks" category for me. I have found (through Heroes Unlimited) that games in that power level just aren't very fun. The enjoyment garnered in those level games stems from the "mundane" aspects...sure you can move a planet, but can you pay your rent?

Also, with regard to Superman and other hyper heroes (thanks George Carlin!), we quickly get into something that I believe is referred to as Superman Syndrome, which goes something like: "Iron Man is stronger than Spider Man. If Spider Man can lift 5 tons, then Iron Man can lift 50 tons..." or something similiar. Granted, now that DC/Marvel are now doing official stats, that argument is going the way of the Dodo, but still, having a bunch of deity level (and deities, Thor...) entities running around in a setting doesn't float my boat.

Thusly, when I do make my supers setting, there won't be any hyper-heroes running around (Mighty Cthulhu and gang don't count :happy: ) in it. Granted, it might not be as munchkiny as other settings, but the BRP fans don't seem to be that into munchkin twinkiness as other systems fans are.

Besides, D20 isn't that good at modelling Superhero effects, they just add damage dice and Hit Points, same with White Wolf (10 dots in anything is pretty "superpowered"). Which is similar to the real world I suppose, after all what's the difference between a 25mm cannon and an 18" cannon...same mechanics, just Much Bigger. It isn't till you get into nuclear weapons that we see a change in mechanics (well thermobarics have some nifty effects, but they still go boom, just a bit differently).

Anyway, when I get some feedback from Vhraeden regarding system (beyond "this sucks"), that will be the baseline from where I go towards tweaking the system.

-STS

Edited October 31, 2008 by sladethesniper

[MrJealousy]

What about limiting the level of super powers based on the level of game Normal,Heroic,Epic,Super Human. These levels limit the amount of points you can spend on your character but you could also limit the types of powers that can be obtained too. A normal level game has the 'only just super' powers like... oh i dont know.. a few points of natural armour, 1d6 increased strength that kind of stuff, and the Super Human level includes all of the godlike stuff, time travel, indestructible, instant healing.

Anybody seen the movie Mystery Men? For a bunch of 'only just super' heroes this movie is great and full of possibilities...

The main problem that I see with superpowers is that to make the game really interesting there needs to be loads of different powers with lots of different levels of those powers.

[pulpcitizen]

I think the system has potential for supers use, but that the superpowers selection (and attendent modifiers etc) needs expansion. In essence I feel that a setting incorporating the magic system(s) and psionics alongside powers can work. That said, I feel that the superpowers need to be a costlier way of building broader and/or more reliable effects than available through the restricted mechanisms of the other optional power systems.

It also occurs to me that there are options that can be used by PC's to restrict their own lethality - which is the point of many comic book stories, isn't it?

With great power comes great responsibility.

I think the perceived problem lies in that (relatively) low-lethality is the default mode for many super-hero rpgs such as DC Heroes/MEGS/Blood of Heroes, Hero/Champions, Mutants and Masterminds, so BRP suffers a little by comparison (as can GURPS for similar reasons).

Another issue is the 'why?' factor. Why does a GM want a system that plays more like another system? If it is perceived that the other system works more accurately or effectively (or both) then use it. But if there is something that is preferable about BRP by comparison, then the question arises of the need to bolt-on (more) rules changes to achieve the desired outcome, since the result will potentially be removed from the starting system - in other word that which is in favour of using one system gets lost amid add-ons.

I honestly think that the basics exist to run not just so-called 'gritty' stories, but also more 'mainstream' comic book inspired tales. Admittedly this view isn't supported by experience yet, but that is something I plan to address.

One thing that did occur to me is the potential to run games in a so-called 'widescreen' mileiu/style (like the Authority, the Ultimates, Black Summer et al).

Edited November 1, 2008 by leonmallett

[Kloster]

I think that with work, BRP could equal M&M. I have a personal preference for 'point-buy' systems like M&M, GURPS, and HERO System, and suspect (probably based upon my prejudice) that an optional BRP point-based system would help. More importantly though, someone needs to come up with a more detailed selection of powers and power modifiers. Just my humble opinion.

I've begun work on a point-buy system modeled after GURPS and HERO System, though whether I ever finish it is another thing all together...

A good point based creation system to look upon is the one from James Bond 007 (Victory Games). But Champions, the father of all Super Hero and grand father of all point based systems is a good choice.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

That was the main reason I stopped playing Hero! That and the template character was always a striker with a CAK and Full Life Support! Boring.

I am going for a Punisher/Watchmen type feel.

-STS

You've never read anything from the 'Dark Champions' line, don't you?

I am NOT using it especially because of this feel.

When I play a Super game, I do it for the Uebermensh feel, not to see almost ordinary men transformed in mindless killers by the access to a big armory.

But if you look on a Punisher style, this is your game.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[LivingTriskele]

But Champions, the father of all Super Hero and grand father of all point based systems is a good choice.

I've got my 5th Edition Hero System book out and ready for reference. I guess my biggest and first question is-- how much do I break BRP apart before I (try to) put it back together again?

Right now I'm just doing my best to achieve a firm understanding of BRP as it stands now, with all of its optional components. And understand how all of its facets work with each other.

[Kloster]

Yeah, as much as I love realism I understand how other people can go for more cinematic games. With Hero System they accomplish that with basically two kinds of hit points Stun and Body. By default most attacks do stun and maybe a little Body at the same time, but you're far more likely to get knocked out before you get killed. Unless you encourage everyone to make characters with Killing Attacks, that do more Body damage, and subsequently live up to their name. I think a similar optional system could be created for BRP, maybe using fatigue. No doubt about it, it's a lot of work. In order to bring BRP 'up to date' with more modern 'generic' RPG systems, someone is going to have to break the bones of the entire system and reset them. It's not going to happen anytime soon, if it all, and probably would be met with some animosity. But I think it's totally possible--then I'm a hopeless romantic :happy:

As Champions/Hero has been published in 1981 (IIRC), I find amusing to see it listed in the 'modern generic systems'.

Apart to that, I fully agree with this analysis.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

That's just it, the style of play is everything. If you are looking to run a fairely realistic camapign with heroes who are only slightly more than human, BRP works grreat. Use one or more of the "hero point" and you can get a good system for running characters like Batman, Captain America, Daredevil, Iron Fist, THe Question, the Spirit, the Green Hornet, maybe even up to the level of Spider-Man.

But that is not the style used in a typical comic, especially for a group of heroes. Nor is it the style that the typical Super RPG gamer going to expect. To compete with games like M&M, BRP will need a the style of play/paradigm similar to that of Justice League or the Avengers.

Heroes Unlimited proved just how unfun, "gritty & realistic supers" can be, with the PCs wanted on manslaughter charges after each adventure.

But if the players are clued in, you can do some pretty cool stuff with BRP Superpowers. Just expect the occasional punch to crtical and cripple or possibly even kill somebody.

Totally agree.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

I've got my 5th Edition Hero System book out and ready for reference. I guess my biggest and first question is-- how much do I break BRP apart before I (try to) put it back together again?

Right now I'm just doing my best to achieve a firm understanding of BRP as it stands now, with all of its optional components. And understand how all of its facets work with each other.

It completely depends on your goal.

If you want a BRP Hero system able to reproduce all or almost all the aspects of the Super genre, you will have first to vastly expand the range of powers, add a complete non lethal combat system and reconsider the ratio of efficiency between the different power systems. Then, the creation system can (should) be modified to a point based one. This probably leads to a change in the experience system (to comply with the point system).

Those are some of the points (alongside with the availability of supplements) that made me shift from Superworld to Champions some 25 years ago.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[LivingTriskele]

As Champions/Hero has been published in 1981 (IIRC), I find amusing to see it listed in the 'modern generic systems'.

Yeah, it is kind of ironic-- but 5th edition Hero came out in 2004 (I may be thinking of the revised edition). That's just it-- the system has been revised and refined, brought up to date. As long as subsequent editions of a game system truly improve upon itself (as opposed to say 4th edition D&D--sorry, my prejudice) I think they're a good thing. BRP is still kind of where it was in the late 70s. Don't get me wrong--it gets by on its own personality, and I'll take a unrefined BRP over a refined Hero System any day.

Edited November 1, 2008 by LivingTriskele

[LivingTriskele]

If you want a BRP Hero system able to reproduce all or almost all the aspects of the Super genre, you will have first to vastly expand the range of powers, add a complete non lethal combat system and reconsider the ratio of efficiency between the different power systems. Then, the creation system can (should) be modified to a point based one. This probably leads to a change in the experience system (to comply with the point system).

Those are some of the points (alongside with the availability of supplements) that made me shift from Superworld to Champions some 25 years ago.

I agree with all of these ideas. Especially the change in the experience system. No matter what though, it won't be for everybody. So much work. I guess it's a good thing I'm an obsessive insomniac. :ohwell:

[sladethesniper]

You've never read anything from the 'Dark Champions' line, don't you?

I am NOT using it especially because of this feel.

When I play a Super game, I do it for the Uebermensh feel, not to see almost ordinary men transformed in mindless killers by the access to a big armory.

But if you look on a Punisher style, this is your game.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Ouch...;-(

I have all the Dark Champions stuff, but didn't like the cheesy-ness of it. I was like a "gothy" version of Champions...color me unimpressed.

I like the Ubermensh feel of a supers game as well (otherwise, I would just play Cyberpunk2020 or GURPS SpecOps), my problem with it is the extreme scaling of it.

I'm going to go to comicvine and pull off their "powercharts" and see what I can do with that as an example of good/bad/noxious...

-STS

[sladethesniper]

Yeah, it is kind of ironic-- but 5th edition Hero came out in 2004 (I may be thinking of the revised edition). That's just it-- the system has been revised and refined, brought up to date. As long as subsequent editions of a game system truly improve upon itself (as opposed to say 4th edition D&D--sorry, my prejudice) I think they're a good thing. BRP is still kind of where it was in the late 70s. Don't get me wrong--it gets by on its own personality, and I'll take a unrefined BRP over a refined Hero System any day.

Could I interest you in Fuzion? It's new-ish, it's from HERO and RTalsorian and ties in EASILY to a % system. Check out Champions:New Millenium

Fuzion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's free!

TranzFuzion

This is/was my starting point...BRP + Fuzion = what I like...

...and I eagerly await the hate :thumb:

-STS

[Nightshade]

Well, there's a couple of reasons someone could want a BRP supers game:

1. They want to use, essentially, one basic system for everything. Lots of people don't like to have to use widely varied systems for different genres and settings.

2. They like aspects of the system that have nothing to do with the way damage and powers are handled, such as the skill system.

And as a comment, it doesn't do much good to just have the PCs avoid being lethal if the NPCs aren't doing the same (and there's no in-setting reason for them to do so in many superhero stories; that's why its a convention that it just always works out that way).

This isn't a problem just limited to superheroes; its present in any genre/setting where low lethality is the order of the day without there being any in-world reason for it to be true. Its just particularly stark in the superhero setting because the power level compounds the problem.

[Kloster]

Yeah, it is kind of ironic-- but 5th edition Hero came out in 2004 (I may be thinking of the revised edition). That's just it-- the system has been revised and refined, brought up to date. As long as subsequent editions of a game system truly improve upon itself (as opposed to say 4th edition D&D--sorry, my prejudice) I think they're a good thing. BRP is still kind of where it was in the late 70s. Don't get me wrong--it gets by on its own personality, and I'll take a unrefined BRP over a refined Hero System any day.

2004 is 5th revised, but the elements cited are already present in 1st ed Champions. I agree for the last comment, except for the Super genre (MY prejudice).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Could I interest you in Fuzion? It's new-ish, it's from HERO and RTalsorian and ties in EASILY to a % system. Check out Champions:New Millenium

Fuzion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's free!

TranzFuzion

This is/was my starting point...BRP + Fuzion = what I like...

...and I eagerly await the hate :thumb:

-STS

I've put my hand on Champions: New Millenium as soon as it has been available in France (about 1 year delay with US one), after a discussion with Mike Pondsmith when he came in Geneva for a Con we organized at that time.

The universe presented is nice. Less 4 collors than the standard Champions universe, but nice nonetheless.

I am much less impressed by the system, It is lacking the possibilities of the Hero system, but is bringing too much complexity to the Interlock system.

Those systems have been designed for modelling different kind of games and don't mix correctly.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Well, there's a couple of reasons someone could want a BRP supers game:

1. They want to use, essentially, one basic system for everything. Lots of people don't like to have to use widely varied systems for different genres and settings.

...

Even if I am a big Champions fan, count me on this point.

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2. They like aspects of the system that have nothing to do with the way damage and powers are handled, such as the skill system.

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Count me also in this group. BRP has probably the best Role playing skill system I have ever used. Hero has definitely not.

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And as a comment, it doesn't do much good to just have the PCs avoid being lethal if the NPCs aren't doing the same (and there's no in-setting reason for them to do so in many superhero stories; that's why its a convention that it just always works out that way).

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This is purely a genre question. Spiderman is able too punch through a Safe door, and should thus be able to punch through the body of any goon he meets. I am not sure he has ever killed one. Same for Batman (or worse Superman).

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This isn't a problem just limited to superheroes; its present in any genre/setting where low lethality is the order of the day without there being any in-world reason for it to be true. Its just particularly stark in the superhero setting because the power level compounds the problem.

Completely agree here (except that for me, non lethality is in-genre for most super hero settings. Punisher and Wolverine are exceptions, not the rule (and Wolverine is killing, but is still 4 colors).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[sladethesniper]

OK, about the lethality issue. How about pulling punches? You do too much damage with your roll, you can roll again to try to reduce it?

Reducing Damage:

There are times when a character may not want to kill their target, merely disable them. In these instances, the character merely has to make a successful attack once to hit the target, then has to make a second roll under their skill level to reduce the damage to any value less than the normal rolled. For example, Heren, a dwarf bouncer is breaking up a bar fight. He is a very experienced fighter (punch 82%, kick 74%) but his job does not include killing those who violate the rules of the Gun Runner Bar. Marlis, a rather hot headed gnoll decides to punch Heren when asked to leave. Marlis is not very skilled, having a 26% punch skill. Marlis rolls a 55 to hit Heren, a miss. Heren wants to slam Marlis’ snout against the bar to get his attention. Heren rolls a 07, a critical success. Marlis tries to dodge (skill 45%, but rolls 87 and fails). Heren grabs the back of Marlis’ head and pulls him forward and down, slamming him snout first into the hard oak bar.

Heren is pretty strong Dwarf, with a STR of 17, doing 2d8 LDC and a damage bonus of +8 LDC for his skill for a combined total of 2d8+8 LDC. Heren rolls a 14 and adds 8 for a total of 22 damage, but he rolled a Critical Success for a total of 44 LDC damage… a bit more than he wants to do. Heren decides that he wants to try and reduce that to 30 LDC (equal to 3 DC). Heren rolls against his skill of 82% and gets a 34, success. When Marlis face smashes into the bar, he takes 3 DC, which is enough to bloody his nose, tear his eyes and loosen a few teeth. Shocked, woozy and bloody, Marlis decides to take the warning and walks unevenly out of the bar.

Oh, yeah LDC is 1/10th of a Hit Point, and DC = 1 Hit Point...

-STS

[Nightshade]

Even if I am a big Champions fan, count me on this point.

Ironically, that's often the reason people use Hero for everything, too; it just tends to run into problems toward the other end of the spectrum, because on the whole its much easier to knock out than kill people with it, barring special rules (and this becomes extremely noticeable when any significant body armor is present).

Count me also in this group. BRP has probably the best Role playing skill system I have ever used. Hero has definitely not.

Hero's skill system isn't particularly bad, when compared with RPGs as a whole, but it shows what it is--something that was added to the system somewhat as an afterthought.

This is purely a genre question. Spiderman is able too punch through a Safe door, and should thus be able to punch through the body of any goon he meets. I am not sure he has ever killed one. Same for Batman (or worse Superman).

Superman used to make a big issue over the fact he had to be so careful, but in practice you're right; whatever the theoretical risk, it virtually never happened that superheroes killed anyone during the Silver and Bronze Ages of comics, and outside of particularly gritty books, its not much more common now. Its a genre convention pure and simple.

Completely agree here (except that for me, non lethality is in-genre for most super hero settings. Punisher and Wolverine are exceptions, not the rule (and Wolverine is killing, but is still 4 colors).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

I don't disagree at all. In fact, my point was that having rules for pulling punches and the like wasn't much of a solution, because even characters who would be unlikely to do so (like many villains) still don't kill people particularly often in the sourceworks, and almost never fellow supers, whether those supers have any obvious defensive powers or not.

That's the challenge for anyone trying to use BRP for a conventional supers game, even a low powered one. As I said, Superworld had its own solution; there was a fairly large gap between unconsciousness and dying (the character's Con score in fact, something most designs had at a relatively high level) and gave even those who went past that a Luck roll (with a 1% penalty for every point of damage past negative Con) to survive. Given the Extra Hit Points power was cheap and effective (it gave 2 hit points per power point spent), you were usually only in danger if you happened to get brought to a low level by one hit and then got hit very badly again (and this if you had no armor/protection, which wasn't a particularly common build, since even a modest amount would reduce the likelyhood of a really bad blowthrough here).

But most of these mechanisms aren't present in BRP as-is; as A says above, it shows the difference between a game crafted (at least to some degree) for the genre, and a general purpose system.

This isn't a problem unique to BRP; 3rd Edition GURPS Supers was somewhat notorious among Supers game fans for not being a good fit for most supers settings, partly because GURPS is also rather gritty by nature; on a different front, until M&M came along, D20 supers games had been, to say the least, underwhelming.

[pulpcitizen]

It completely depends on your goal.

If you want a BRP Hero system able to reproduce all or almost all the aspects of the Super genre, you will have first to vastly expand the range of powers,

Agreed

add a complete non lethal combat system

Really? there are two or three spot rules that seem to handle this function already, at least as I see it.

and reconsider the ratio of efficiency between the different power systems.

Given the variable growth and mechanical functioning efficiency is a complicated issue - starting efficiency vs efficiency after considerable experience for example, so comapring starting characters would not be a fair comparison necessarily, and efficiciency could be balanced in the area of charcter growth rather than massive rule change to the power systems.

Then, the creation system can (should) be modified to a point based one. This probably leads to a change in the experience system (to comply with the point system).

Are you not simply creating a GURPS/MEGS/Hero/M&M wannabe then?

Those are some of the points (alongside with the availability of supplements) that made me shift from Superworld to Champions some 25 years ago.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

It is funny, but after 20 years of Champions, GURPS and MEGS, I feel I am stepping in the other direction - it really is different strokes for different folks.

I have not yet used BRP as a supers game but I plan to, and my opinion may change after I have tried to do so. My view is that there is value in the BRP powers systems, and it is the skills systm that i want to emphasize as so many supers games are lacking in this area. I feel the powers systems simply need appropriate expansion, and that BRP can or should be utilised for its differences rather than similarities to the various point-buy games. The training rules seem an intriguing alternative to the flat experience point increase of point-buy. But that is just one view.

Edited November 2, 2008 by leonmallett

[Kloster]

Ironically, that's often the reason people use Hero for everything, too; it just tends to run into problems toward the other end of the spectrum, because on the whole its much easier to knock out than kill people with it, barring special rules (and this becomes extremely noticeable when any significant body armor is present).

...

True. With Hero, barring the most powerful standard attacks, only killing attacks have a chance to kill a character, and in super settings, those are quite rare.

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Hero's skill system isn't particularly bad, when compared with RPGs as a whole, but it shows what it is--something that was added to the system somewhat as an afterthought.

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Agreed.

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That's the challenge for anyone trying to use BRP for a conventional supers game, even a low powered one. As I said, Superworld had its own solution; there was a fairly large gap between unconsciousness and dying (the character's Con score in fact, something most designs had at a relatively high level) and gave even those who went past that a Luck roll (with a 1% penalty for every point of damage past negative Con) to survive. Given the Extra Hit Points power was cheap and effective (it gave 2 hit points per power point spent), you were usually only in danger if you happened to get brought to a low level by one hit and then got hit very badly again (and this if you had no armor/protection, which wasn't a particularly common build, since even a modest amount would reduce the likelyhood of a really bad blowthrough here).

But most of these mechanisms aren't present in BRP as-is; as A says above, it shows the difference between a game crafted (at least to some degree) for the genre, and a general purpose system.

This isn't a problem unique to BRP; 3rd Edition GURPS Supers was somewhat notorious among Supers game fans for not being a good fit for most supers settings, partly because GURPS is also rather gritty by nature; on a different front, until M&M came along, D20 supers games had been, to say the least, underwhelming.

Same for me (except the comment about GURPS 3, because I've never played this one).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

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Really? there are two or three spot rules that seem to handle this function already, at least as I see it.

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Those spot rules can come close, but I see 2 problems:

- In All Golden and silver age, and most bronze age comics, the non lethal combat is the rule, not the exception, and if you want to model those genre, the rules should show this.

- As Nightshade explained, players tend to stay simple and will probably NOT use those spot rules.

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Given the variable growth and mechanical functioning efficiency is a complicated issue - starting efficiency vs efficiency after considerable experience for example, so comapring starting characters would not be a fair comparison necessarily, and efficiciency could be balanced in the area of charcter growth rather than massive rule change to the power systems.

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I am not asking for a massive rule change to the power systems. I'm 'only' saying the superpower section has to be extended to better cover the vast range of powers used by supers in the comics, and the ratio of efficiency between the different power systems has to be reconsidered. I should have added 'or the other (=non super powers) systems should be ignored as non genre'.

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Are you not simply creating a GURPS/MEGS/Hero/M&M wannabe then?

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No, I don't think so. BRP has a distinctive feeling and will (and should) not be a wannabe of anything. By the way, I don't know MEGS.

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It is funny, but after 20 years of Champions, GURPS and MEGS, I feel I am stepping in the other direction - it really is different strokes for different folks.

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True. Good luck and have a good time.

...

I have not yet used BRP as a supers game but I plan to, and my opinion may change after I have tried to do so. My view is that there is value in the BRP powers systems, and it is the skills systm that i want to emphasize as so many supers games are lacking in this area. I feel the powers systems simply need appropriate expansion, and that BRP can or should be utilised for its differences rather than similarities to the various point-buy games. The training rules seem an intriguing alternative to the flat experience point increase of point-buy. But that is just one view.

I have used it (in the days of WoW, then Superworld boxed set).

I agree there is value in the power system, and in addition to this, it works.

No comments about the skill system, because I think BRP has the best, bar none.

No comments on the rest. As already pointed, different people, different views (This one is not mine, but is valid), different choices.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Edited November 2, 2008 by Kloster
typo

[pulpcitizen]

...By the way, I don't know MEGS...

MEGS was the game engine for DC Heroes then later Blood of Heroes, and in terms of point buy systems my favourite simply due to its mechanical elegance. Its weakness was similar to that of Hero: high end functionality was fine, but gradation at low levels was minimal.