Can't find any info on these new shaman pilgrimages

[Pentallion]

In the new RQG a shaman can have taboos such as go on a pilgrimage to the Hunter's Camp every season or BullDry.  Never heard of these places.  What is entailed mechanically and so on to do these pilgrimages?

[Pentallion]

Okay, so my shaman player found this:  http://www.geocities.ws/praxpack/greg-stormbull.html

From the sounds of it, his non-Storm Bull Shaman has got to go on a  seasonal pilgrimage to the Block?  Enter the Eternal Battle and find his way to Bulldry.  Every Season?  I'm thinking he probably doesn't have to go that route, he can just go straight to the Bulldry on the spirit plane, but does this mean his Orlanthi shaman has to travel every season to the Block?

And that's just Bulldry dug up from a vague web link he stumbled upon.  What about Hunter's Camp?  Daka Fal's Fire?  Etc.

EDIT:  After an absurd amount of searching, turns out Hunter's camp is accesible from Bear Mountain in the Autumn Mountain range of Aggar.  Does this mean that taboo means travelling to Bear Mountain in Aggar once a season?

Edited July 10, 2018 by Pentallion

[Pheres]

33 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

EDIT:  After an absurd amount of searching, turns out Hunter's camp is accesible from Bear Mountain in the Autumn Mountain range of Aggar.  Does this mean that taboo means travelling to Bear Mountain in Aggar once a season?

In rules taboo tables it's explicitly writen that the pilgrimage must be done in the spirit world, Shaman have not to physically travel to the physical location prior to do the quest:

Quote

Make pilgrimage to Hunter’s Camp (in the Spirit World) once per season.

So a shaman have to enter the spirit world where he is in the mundane world and travel accross the spirit world to the pilgrimage location every season. But the travel for this kind of taboo have to be done in the spirit world where it can be shorter to go to one location than in the mundane world.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Pheres

[Pentallion]

I guess you'd have to be right Pheres, because physically travelling from Sartar to Bear Mountain, according to the Atlas, would take about 5 weeks.

[David Scott]

On 7/10/2018 at 5:25 AM, Pentallion said:

In the new RQG a shaman can have taboos such as go on a pilgrimage to the Hunter's Camp every season or BullDry.  Never heard of these places.

They are places in the Praxian spirit world, here is an edited down entry for each:

Quote

Bulldry: This is the region where the Storm Bull wind blows constantly, a huge volume of air full of spirit winds of the desert storm. Here too is the Storm Bull and his band, supplied with fermented milk right from the udders of their cows. It is halfway between the Great Herd and Stormway. Although pleasant, worshippers get no magics from their drunken master here, who is lethargic and peaceful.

Daka Fal's Fire: A dead campfire marks this place. It is half way between Daka's Cave and the Great Herd. Here Daka Fal meets his descendants and takes them to the campfire of their ancestors. He sometimes send evil folks to Daka's Cave, unescorted.

Earth Camp: Earth Camp is the greatest camp of the goddess. It sits on a low hill that is the body of the goddess herself at the Paps. The Great Herd is all around and the circle of eight sits around the fire.

Hunters' Camp: Foundchild is here, dressing his prey and preparing for the next hunt, otherwise it is empty and the fire pit hidden. Waha can also be found here, learning skills from the Hunter himself. The Great Hunt starts from here.

The Roost: A large dead tree, with a single branch jutting off of it, sits far outside of the Great Herd. Those seeking the Roost will find one of the Three Feathered Rivals here.

Serpent Ground: Waha is here, waiting to fight the Great Serpent. The Great Serpent hates Waha for his enslavement of the Sounders River. It rises from the ground as a huge water serpent, and Waha and his heroes fight to stop it flooding the land and drowning the herds.

Here is the current full version of the Great Herd

Quote

Great Herd: When a Praxian nomad enters the spirit world of their own safe circles, they visit the Great herd. There is the Herd Protectress herself, a huge cow of whatever tribe the visitors are members of. She is surrounded by others less spectacular in size, but each with her own splendor. They are cows of the other great herds, as well as a variety of the visitors' kinship animal. So a bison tribe member would see a huge splendid bison, who is the Protectress, and around her black bison, long horn bison, ordinary bison, star bison and even a white bison, as well as a high llama, an impala, etc.

Surrounding those are thousands of the favorite herd beast, all contented and healthy, milling about with calves and bulls among them.

Within: Home Camp, Herd Guard.

Visible in the distance: The Wide Plains, Home Camp, Herd Guard.

At the Edges of the Great Herd: The Wide Plains.

Who can be met there? Eiritha, Protectresses, Waha.

Middle World connections: The Tribal herds.

Associated societies: Eiritha, Waha

Many of these places are starting points for cult heroquests. But these are all normal parts of Praxian spirit world (and many more). Hunters camp and earth camp likely exist in other traditions too in their own form.

On 7/10/2018 at 5:25 AM, Pentallion said:

What is entailed mechanically and so on to do these pilgrimages?

All of these places have an associated Middle world place. The shaman will likely hold a big ceremony at the middle world place and visit then. For example, the Great Herd would be done inside the shaman's clan herd, Bulldry under the Raging Storm, The Roost near a sacred dead tree (there are likely many).

Edited December 5, 2022 by David Scott

[Pentallion]

Thanks.  Sounds like the taboos in RQG were written for Praxian shamans.  Should I change them to something else for an Orlanthi shaman?

[David Scott]

33 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

Should I change them to something else for an Orlanthi shaman?

if you like. However I'd suggest keeping it simple. It also depends on the homeland, which Orlanthi? The Praxian places form a giant map that overlays the Middle world and interlink. I'd suggest:

Bulldry: Stormgate (also present in Prax) A area where shaman can enter the storm world

Daka Fal's Fire: keep this, it could be the original place where orlanthi survivors entered time in the maps in the guide or it's the clan hearth.

Earth Camp: keep this - make it a local earth temple or feature - eg. Kero Fin or Shakers temple

Hunters' Camp: Keep this, it can be any where there are hunters. - it's always hidden.

The Roost: a local spirit place like the chalk man in the Sartar companion

Serpent Ground: a river that has some storm mythology. Perhaps sky fall lake, skyriver titan, parent of all the Sartar rivers.

If you make it to specialist, when they are away they will have to travel to reach them. 

 

 

[Pentallion]

Thanks that helps.  Havent seen anything in rqg on specialist.  Is that HQ?

[Pheres]

9 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

Thanks that helps.  Havent seen anything in rqg on specialist.  Is that HQ?

What is a specialist?

[simonh]

I think what David means is that if you make the correspondence between physical places in an area and places on the spirit world too close to 1-1, when a Shaman is traveling far from that area they won't have access to those spirit locations without travelling a long way physically or in the spirit world. There could be many places in the physical world that all can be used as entry points to the same place in the spirit world, or near to it.

[David Scott]

17 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Havent seen anything in rqg on specialist.

This looks like a lost in translation moment. Too specialist means too specific, too exact... @simonh is correct.

for example, if you decided that the shamans hunters' camp should be a place just outside of runegate fort by the river, they'd have to travel there by spirit from where ever they are. By keeping it as any hunters fire makes it much easier to use. Using skyriver titan also gets round that problem as its related to the major waters of sartar.

 

[Pheres]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

This looks like a lost in translation moment. Too specialist means too specific, too exact... @simonh is correct.

 

Thanks David

[Pentallion]

19 hours ago, David Scott said:

This looks like a lost in translation moment. Too specialist means too specific, too exact... @simonh is correct.

for example, if you decided that the shamans hunters' camp should be a place just outside of runegate fort by the river, they'd have to travel there by spirit from where ever they are. By keeping it as any hunters fire makes it much easier to use. Using skyriver titan also gets round that problem as its related to the major waters of sartar.

 

Ahhh, to vs too.  got it. Thanks.

[Jokum]

I thank David Scott for this information and i wonder If full texts and explanations can be found or bought somewhere? Where is this information about the Spirit world coming from?

One thing puzzles me about the spirit travelling: RQ rule book says the shaman has one roll for travelling. Does this mean he have to roll only for navigating to new places and he finds the already found places without a roll.

[David Scott]

8 minutes ago, Jokum said:

I thank David Scott for this information and i wonder If full texts and explanations can be found or bought somewhere?

Not yet

8 minutes ago, Jokum said:

Where is this information about the Spirit world coming from?

I worked on the Spirit magic and Praxians in HQG. I continue to work on shamanism in Glorantha.

Just now, Jokum said:

One thing puzzles me about the spirit travelling: RQ rule book says the shaman has one roll for travelling. Does this mean he have to roll only for navigating to new places and he finds the already found places without a roll.

Page 141 deals with when ability rolls should be made: 

Quote

Does the chance of failure heighten tension and make for an exciting possibility? Will a failure add fun to the game? If the answer to either is “Yes,” then the gamemaster should have the player make an ability roll.

if the answer is no, then it's an automatic success.

See also

 

[PhilHibbs]

I'm seeing a lot of situations where some flavour text is included, like "journey to the thunderfountain" (I just made that up) and people react by asking "where is this thunderfountain detailed". Now the author might write the name of a place that Greg or Jeff or Sandy has talked about, that's in Heortling Mythology, but that doesn't mean that you as a GM have to have access to these ancient obscure sources, just decide where it is in your Glorantha. That can seem daunting, but it really doesn't have to be.

[d(sqrt(-1))]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'm seeing a lot of situations where some flavour text is included, like "journey to the thunderfountain" (I just made that up) and people react by asking "where is this thunderfountain detailed". Now the author might write the name of a place that Greg or Jeff or Sandy has talked about, that's in Heortling Mythology, but that doesn't mean that you as a GM have to have access to these ancient obscure sources, just decide where it is in your Glorantha. That can seem daunting, but it really doesn't have to be.

Well true, but if you don't know if it's a real (i.e. defined somewhere) place or not then that's just a bit annoying TBH. It's not just really not knowing where it is, but not knowing WHAT it is either.  I know a lot of it is just passing references to things that maybe weren't ever defined, but even just knowing that is a better than no information at all.

As you say, if it's cropping up a lot in people's questions, that's surely an indication that it's a problem of some sort?

Edited December 5, 2020 by d(sqrt(-1))

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, d(sqrt(-1)) said:

I know a lot of it is just passing references to things that maybe weren't ever defined, but even just knowing that is a better than no information at all.

Which is exactly why I wrote what I did. Maybe it does need some kind of prefacing text encouraging the GM to fill in the blanks where something is merely referenced as a name, an extra line in the introduction.

[d(sqrt(-1))]

32 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Which is exactly why I wrote what I did. Maybe it does need some kind of prefacing text encouraging the GM to fill in the blanks where something is merely referenced as a name, an extra line in the introduction.

I agree, but it might need a bit more than that as you still won't know, without a reference, if it's something defined somewhere else! Ideally (but it would be a lot of work and so probably impractical) to have references to a list at the end of the book, or maybe even just a sentence about whatever it is.

When I write scenarios or campaign stuff I don't plan everything out as that's way too much work, but usually if I put something in I have some idea of what /where it is/might be, and that's fine, because I can then fill it out later on if needs be. If I let someone else run games in that setting then they won't necessarily know my thinking if I don't tell them my intentions.

It works really well as a technique in fiction to mention things in passing because it evokes atmosphere and the author can choose to give us as much or little detail as they want. In an RPG though, with active participants they may well want to know something about it/go there/steal it/whatever. At that point I'm left with three options a/tell the players I don't know 2/ try and find a definition somewhere, 3/ make something up that may or may not later on turn out to be incorrect. I guess it's a classic problem with metaplots.

I love Tekumel as well, but it has similar problems, maybe even moreso, as Professor Barker seems to have written most of his massive amount of notes in Urdu and/or Tsolyani, and most of those notes are now with the Tekumel Foundation who seem to have little resource to actually get much published. The great thing about Glorantha is that it is thriving and getting a lot of publications precisely because it started to "open up" to other contributors. In general I like the direction of travel and obviously things have to be written that will sell, but I've never really been able to cope with huge info dumps of background material very well or interlinking references where you have to puzzle out what the hell it means. I much prefer to have it upfront TBH.

Edited December 5, 2020 by d(sqrt(-1))