Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death

[Martin]

We know there have been 21 winners of the Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death.

Does anyone (Jeff?) care to speculate on any of the names and origins of the winners?

Or are their names forgotten as they become the latest incarnation?

Edited July 12, 2018 by Martin

[metcalph]

The first Tournament was held in 1336 ST (Guide p239).  The new body formerly belonged to Sethtalar (History of the Heortling Peoples p93)

Another may have been Andrin the Lucky (HotHP p94) in 1390 but the language is ambiguous (HotHP p94)

One was held before 1510 ST by a son of Queen Bruvala (Glorantha Sourcebook p28)

One was held on or after 1532 ST in which Doragrestol tried to usurp Belintar (HotHP p94)

One was held in 1550 ST and won by the brother of Imarjira, who became Queen of Esrolia in the next year (Glorantha Sourebook p28)

One was held in 1614 ST (Guide p240)

The last was held after Belintar's Disappearance in 1617 ST (Guide p240)

Pretty much any nationality of the Holy Country (Esrolians, God Forgotten etc) has been an incarnation of Belintar, from what I've heard.  There's even been an elf.

[jajagappa]

12 hours ago, metcalph said:

One was held in 1614 ST (Guide p240)

This was very likely to have been Valinyr, Queen of Esrolia 1564-1585 and subsequently Reverend Grandmother 1585-1613, given the picture of Belintar's form in Prince of Sartar before Harrek and Jar-eel's arrivals.

[metcalph]

55 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

This was very likely to have been Valinyr, Queen of Esrolia 1564-1585 and subsequently Reverend Grandmother 1585-1613, given the picture of Belintar's form in Prince of Sartar before Harrek and Jar-eel's arrivals.

Hmm.  The Glorantha Sourcebook p28 says she died in 1610.  She does have a unnamed sister (who is the mother of Valinalda and we don't know who became Revered Grandmother after 1610.  Prince of Sartar has Jolera as the Revered Grandmother but that's in 1621 ST.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

The Glorantha Sourcebook p28 says she died in 1610.

May have changed - Jeff's original outline had 1613.

However, the other likely candidate is Valinyr's cousin, Valira, Dormal's mother.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

we don't know who became Revered Grandmother after 1610. 

No one did.  Hendira rules without one, which is one of the reasons she fails.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Jolera as the Revered Grandmother but that's in 1621 ST.

Jolerta, Samastina's grandmother, is only in that role for House Delaeos, not all of Esrolia.  Normally all Enfranchised Houses have their Reverend Grandmother to lead them.

[Grievous]

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

No one did.  Hendira rules without one, which is one of the reasons she fails.

Hmm, do we know the process how one becomes a Reverend Grandmother and why the process failed to produce one after 1610?

[metcalph]

5 minutes ago, Grievous said:

Hmm, do we know the process how one becomes a Reverend Grandmother and why the process failed to produce one after 1610?

Generally one has to be a retired queen.  There was a lack of a Revered Grandmother between 1565 (after Brengala's murder by Sartarites) and 1585 when Valinyr became Revered Grandmother.  Imarjira who had stepped down in 1564 and had a brother as an incarnation of Belintar did not become Revered Grandmother.  Since Imarjira's brother had also forced her to retire as queen, I assume that he forbade her to become Revered Grandmother.

So in 1610, there are no suitable candidates as Revered Grandmother.  Valinyr died in that year and logically the ruling Queen Valinalda would ritre to become the new Revered Grandmother (because all the other past Queens of Esrolia were dead).  However Valinalda was killed by an evil spirit and so Hendira rules without a Revered Grandmother.

[Joerg]

10 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Generally one has to be a retired queen. 

As in "priestess of Ernalda". To my best knowledge there is no single Reverend Grandmother lording over all of Esrolia, each will only lord over her House and dependent houses. The Reverend Grandmothers of the Enfranchised Houses form some kind of "senate" which needs to come up with unanimous votes.

Being the Reverend Grandmother of the House of the ruling Queen of Esrolia comes close to this position, however. Bruvala demonstrated this powerfully by switching daughters for the Queen of Nochet position when they went against her dictate.

[Martin]

so...to reiterate my question...

Do we know any of the NAMES of the winners? or are they forgotten when they "become" Belintar?

[metcalph]

50 minutes ago, Martin said:

Do we know any of the NAMES of the winners? or are they forgotten when they "become" Belintar?

We know of one, Sethtalar and possibly two others.  It's quite possible that some sort of taboo avoidance could have developed (Brruvala's Son, Imarjira's Brother) over the identity of the winners.  To name them would be to deny that they are Belintar which would be a slight on his majesty.

[Joerg]

I don't think that referring to Belintar in terms of the current body is encouraged - his presence might actually have been so overwhelming that the details of his physical origin were overlooked. He was the God-King after all.

And then there is the assertion (possibly even provable) of the continued existence of the winner in that magical version of the Holy Country. It would be wrong to address someone patently not being that person in this way.

 

That said, names and identities of previous winners would of course be interesting, as would the competition for the post in the Tournament, and the circumstances leading to the death or decline of the previious body.

I sincerely doubt that such a list exists, yet, and for gaming purposes, keeping it vague might be more useful than nailing down every fact, however much the scholar would love to see just that.

 

An idea to make such a list gameable: there might be some weird quest to assemble the former owners of Belintar's previous bodies in an attempt to bring the God King back. In that case, at least a selection of these, and how they established themselves in that spiral screw Other Side, might be gameable.

Edited July 13, 2018 by Joerg

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Martin said:

Do we know any of the NAMES of the winners? or are they forgotten when they "become" Belintar?

As Peter noted, we conclusively know the name of one.  We definitely know who two others were, but not their names.  We likely know who the last was (and what she looked like via Prince of Sartar).  Otherwise, the information may be buried in one of Greg's archives but has never been published.  As Joerg notes, it probably doesn't matter once you become Belintar.

[JonathanQuaife]

FWIW - I am pretty sure I read somewhere that the Lunar attack on Sartar in 1602 benefited from a MoLAD contest - with key players being drawn away from Sartar to the Holy Country... this may have been in the Dragon Pass rulebook itself, or perhaps an account of the fall of Boldhome in WF?

[Joerg]

28 minutes ago, JonathanQuaife said:

FWIW - I am pretty sure I read somewhere that the Lunar attack on Sartar in 1602 benefited from a MoLAD contest - with key players being drawn away from Sartar to the Holy Country... this may have been in the Dragon Pass rulebook itself, or perhaps an account of the fall of Boldhome in WF?

That was at least a conclusion made from hints, I think from snippets of material for Greg's campaign. Now (since the hardcover edition of King of Sartar) we know that a number of members of House Sartar was killed in the Holy Country, and which ones - e.g. Saraskos and his children, Terasarin's daughters and possibly their cousin and husband of the elder sister Helkos of their Telmori bodyguard. Also all other direct kin of Temertain already resident in the Holy Country (to wit, Karse).

I think I first read details of Salinarg's struggles in King of Sartar, which I admittedly had available before getting either Wyrm's Footprints or RQ2 material into my grubby paws. The best hint may have been in one of Greg's APA zine contributions which were distributed on shady channels during the RQ3 hiatus.

[scott-martin]

43 minutes ago, JonathanQuaife said:

FWIW - I am pretty sure I read somewhere that the Lunar attack on Sartar in 1602 benefited from a MoLAD contest - with key players being drawn away from Sartar to the Holy Country... this may have been in the Dragon Pass rulebook itself, or perhaps an account of the fall of Boldhome in WF?

Yeah, this goes back to Dragon Pass: "A vacancy in the throne of the Pharoah to the south drew off many of Sartar's best swordsmen and seekers, and the Lunar Empire seized the opportunity to invade the kingdom and sack Boldhome."