Help me understand Orlanthi Law and Custom (Spoilers for Cattle Raid)

[Gary Norton]

The Gamemaster Screen Pack includes the adventure Cattle Raid. While reviewing it, I had multiple questions related to Orlanthi laws and customs that I don’t understand. I’m looking for some feedback from the community on this.

Note: For purposes of this discussion, I am assuming that all parties would be speaking the truth about any of these matters. I want to find out what Orlanthi laws and customs should be.

Background: The Varmandi clan hires the PCs to kill two sakkars that have been raiding their cattle. It is clear that the PCs are not members of the Varmandi clan. The PCs are offered 50 Lunars per beast slayed (negotiable up to 100 Lunars); this appears to be the fee for the entire adventuring group.

Topic #1: Trespassing

Once the cattle are initially recovered, the PCs can determine that they are in Orleving clan territory (though the Varmandi dispute that claim). After the sakkar attack, the PCs must travel further into Orleving clan territory to retrieve 50 cattle and then they are accosted by Deseros (of the Orleving clan). This is interesting since the PCs and the Varmandi have clearly trespassed onto Orleving territory. Deseros initially insists on the PCs leaving all of the cattle, but will settle for 50% (variable based on Bargaining rolls). While that cost seems high, some form of payment does seem in order.

Topic #2: The Mission

The PCs were contracted specifically to kill the two sakkars; no mention is made of protecting the cattle from other threats. Perhaps this is assumed. If the PCs allowed Deseros (of the Orleving clan) to have any of the cattle, the PCs could be on the hook for that cost when they return to Oakton. The normal cost of cattle is 20 Lunars for a cow and 30 Lunars for a bull; since these are a sacred herd, the PCs could be on the hook for much more (perhaps 2-5 times the value of normal cattle). This seems patently unfair to the PCs who could lose many multiples of their contracted fee for something that they weren’t hired to do.

Topic #3: Blood Feud

The best option for the PCs seems for them to hold their ground, gather the cattle herd, and retreat back to Varmandi territory. In fact, this would seem to work except that Heortartl (of the Varmandi) loses his cool and insults the Orleving, who then attack the PCs and the Varmandi. Afterwards, the Orleving send an emissary insisting that the PCs provide compensation for their casualties. Since the Varmandi have trespassed onto Orleving territory and provoked a fight (even if the Orleving actually started the fight), their claim to compensation has merit.

Given the clan nature of Orlanthi society, it seems odd to me that they would seek compensation from the PCs. I expect that the Orleving would seek compensation from another clan and not from individuals (i.e., the PCs). But which clan is appropriate? The mission is on behalf of the Varmandi clan; therefore, it seems much more reasonable for the Orleving to want justice from the Varmandi. The Orleving demand 500 Lunars per clansman killed (1000 Lunars for Deseros) and one-half of that number for the wounded.

 

What does Orlanthi Law and Custom have to say about these three topics?

Topic #1 (Trespassing): What is an appropriate payment for trespassing onto Orleving clan territory with 50 grazing cattle?

Topic #2 (Mission): Are the PCs responsible for the general safety of the herd (as opposed to the simple mission of slaying the sakkar)? Shouldn’t Varmandi clan members be more responsible for the loss since the Varmandi were grazing in disputed lands?

Topic #3 (Blood Feud): Who should the Orleving hold responsible for casualties (the PCs, the PCs clan, the Varmandi clan, or some combination)? Is the amount of money for killed tribesmen reasonable? Is the amount for wounded tribesmen reasonable? What constitutes a wound for purposes of payout (e.g,. any hit point damage)?

[Ian Cooper]

Orlanthi society won't recognize individual guilt. The clan is the operative social unit. So you would claim compensation from a clan. The clan might put pressure on the offenders bloodline as an economic unit to bear the brunt of the cost, but this is mostly custom over law. A hired hand working for the clan is still part of the clan, actual blood kinship would be unimportant here. Heortling law is mostly about the clan as a 'corporation', so the important aspect is compensation to the corporation for the loss of its workers, not attributing guilt. So the Orleving would seek compensation from the Varmandi chieftain, the clan's CEO. Now the chieftain might decide you were bad contractors, and try to get you to cough up for the amount, but that would be for the Varmandi to sort out, not the Orlevings.

[jajagappa]

42 minutes ago, Gary Norton said:

What is an appropriate payment for trespassing onto Orleving clan territory with 50 grazing cattle?

Whatever the Orleving can get away with demanding (tempered by whether they think it impacts broader clan relations, if they care).

43 minutes ago, Gary Norton said:

Are the PCs responsible for the general safety of the herd (as opposed to the simple mission of slaying the sakkar)? Shouldn’t Varmandi clan members be more responsible for the loss since the Varmandi were grazing in disputed lands?

@Ian Cooper already noted the "corporate" or societal aspect of this. The PC's are there because the Varmandi are effectively "short-staffed" and need to contract out to the tribe for aid. It is a Varmandi problem in the end.

45 minutes ago, Gary Norton said:

Who should the Orleving hold responsible for casualties (the PCs, the PCs clan, the Varmandi clan, or some combination)?

The Varmandi. There's a long-standing feud between them already. This will just reignite it.

46 minutes ago, Gary Norton said:

What constitutes a wound for purposes of payout (e.g,. any hit point damage)?

Whatever the victim thinks they can claim without losing face/Honor. Claiming compensation for a scratch may just get you laughed at as a weakling or coward.

[Steve3742]

1 hour ago, Gary Norton said:

Is the amount of money for killed tribesmen reasonable? Is the amount for wounded tribesmen reasonable?

The amount for killing a free man seems to be 500L, 1,000L for their leader. Lets compare that with wergeld.

The compensation for killing a free man under Alfred the Great's laws was 200 shillings according to the Book of Ancient Wisdom. Nobles varied from three times that amount to twelve times that amount. So, they're probably getting off lightly with only owing 1,000L for Deseros.

Now, 500L is equivalent to approximately 25 cows at 20L a cow. A mediaeval English cow was worth around 6 shillings (according to this source), so 200 shillings is 33 cows. Not too different, and again, we can say they're getting off lightly.

As for injury, well I can quote this examination of it:

Quote

The compensation or 'bot' for injuries to different parts of the body depended upon their importance and the degree of injury itself: 50s was payable for a severed foot, but 10s for a big toe, piercing of the nose was 9s, mutilation of an ear 6s, striking out an eye, a hefty 50s; the level of payment for bruising depended upon whether the spot hit had been clothed or not, while there were also special provisions for teeth, fingers and the level of damage to one's genitals.

So, a quarter wergeld for the severing of a foot seems to indicate that they're trying it on by claiming half wergeld for an injury (soon healed by magic). Offer them a tenth,unless the damage was permanent.
 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Steve3742
Finished it

[Puckohue]

23 hours ago, Steve3742 said:

unless the damage was permanent.

Considering the abundance of magic healing I’d say the only injuries that are reasons for compensation are the permanent ones.

I’ll probably run this soon so thanks for asking and discussing this.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Puckohue said:

Considering the abundance of magic healing I’d say the only injuries that are reasons for compensation are the permanent ones.

It still costs to be healed; even if the injuries are impermanent, even if you've go a friend to cast the spells.

It costs MP's, maybe POW...  some sort of compensation seems just.  Even if it's payment-in-kind, contributing POW/MP into an item, or the like.

[EpicureanDM]

I've found that the best introductions to Gloranthan lore can often be found in the old Heroquest books. If you want a good, detailed explanation of Orlanthi laws and customs, buy Heroquest's Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes. It contains a section called "The Orlanthi Book" that provides the sort of details you're looking for. I've got a nearly-full collection of RQ and Heroquest material and _Kingdom of Heroes_ is the book that properly solidified Orlanthi customs and law for me.

Edited March 25, 2019 by EpicureanDM

[Bill the barbarian]

5 minutes ago, EpicureanDM said:

I've found that the best introductions to Gloranthan lore can often be found in the old Heroquest books. If you want a good, detailed explanation of Orlanthi laws and customs, buy Heroquest's _Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes_. It contains a section called "The Orlanthi Book" that provides the sort of details you're looking for. I've got a nearly-full collection of RQ and Heroquest material and _Kingdom of Heroes_ is the book that properly solidified Orlanthi customs and law for me.

Combine that with the old HW classic Thunder Rebels to give it colour and Bob's your bison's uncle.

Cheers

[Steve3742]

On 3/25/2019 at 8:42 PM, g33k said:

It still costs to be healed; even if the injuries are impermanent, even if you've go a friend to cast the spells.

True, but not 250L. Maybe work out the cost of the spell and double it for the aggravation? How much does it cost to get Heal Body cast by the local Ernalda Priestess? Or a 6-pt Heal (which would reattach a limb)?

OK, just looked that up. It'd be 60L+1L per HP healed for Heal Body. So, 125L - 1/4 of the weregeld - doesn't seem out of order, it's about equal to the cost of the spell, doubled for the aggravation. Note that Heal Body will reattach limbs (assuming the recipient bought it with him.)

In cases of actual maiming (he didn't bring the limb with him, for example), there's Regrow Limb, which would cost only 40L Although the recipient will be out of action for an average of 5 weeks, so this should be added to the fine. Maybe still 125L, then.

For minor wounds (which you could use Heal on), there's no price provided for casting spirit magic spells. Heal 6, though, should be expensive - who has 6 points in Heal? What is the real world cost of doing this? Less Protection? Less Bladesharp? So maybe 125L again.

So...

My feeling is that 500L for killing is about right. A quarter that (125L) for serious wounds, like limb loss. If the loss turns out to be permanent - which is hard in the magic rich environment of Glorantha, but not impossible - then double it to 250L. 200L (10 cows) is the price given in Thunder Rebels for maiming a carl, so maybe use that instead (although note that the maiming of a noble, chieftain or priestess carries a fine equal to half their weregeld. It's all done in cows and I think they blanched at asking for twelve and a half cows in the carl's case, so they rounded down.)

Thunder Rebels also says that if the injury is minor then "no need for justice". I think this is contingent with everyone - the attacker, the victim, their families and their clans - agreeing to it. Some minorish fine might normally be paid anyway, but there's a risk of mockery of you demand compensation for a torn fingernail or a twisted ankle. You'd probably get the 10L or so compensation, but you'd be featured in the songs of all the skalds and your reputation would increase - but not in a good way. Note that in the magic-rich environment of Glorantha, taking a wound to the arm that leaves it intact (and healable with Heal), probably counts as a minor injury, unlike Viking and Saxon times. Like a twisted ankle, it'll be completely gone in a few days.