DrGoth

I certainly hope so. Otherwise the world is all screwed up by the time the Hero Wars are over. There is always another way to violence and Glorantha after time began is built on compromise. How? That's up to the PCs and GM. Anything that seems reasonable to them. I can think of a couple of answers. Sedenya and Orlanth split the middle air. Yelm doesn't always rule the sky. Half the time it's in darkness. So it could be a time thing. Another option is exactly what they rule in the middle air. Orlanth is storms and wind. That's movement in the middle air. Sedenya is in origin a Solar goddess. The glowline is the light of the moon. So Orlanth might be the movement of the middle air, Sedenya might be the light of the middle air. Those are examples (even if you don't think they are good examples) of a relatively even split. You could take other examples where one or the other dominates but does not destroy the other. E.g., taken as a servant/lover/concubine. Look how Orlanth tamed and employs Daga. Yes, any of those does run into the problem of Chaos (Sedenya pro, Orlanth against). But both of them have changed. My understanding is that if either of them wins completely it's bad news for Glorantha. My take on the Hero Wars is that it is about finding a way in which neither of them wins completely. That may not be easy, but who said being a Hero is easy? As to what it means, that depends on what the answer to how is. And think it's impossible for Storm Gods to accept chaos under any terms? Go ask Humakt about that.

I can go with that. Most of the establishment would be against the white moon cultists, as I understand it. Is the tension with Great Sister political or religious or both? (of course there may not be that much separation between political and religious)

Even with this you want some tension between the two. Yelmites who might resent the Lunar intrusion (for such things four hundred years is nothing). Tension produces stories.

Thanks for the rec Thanks for the reference, but I don't know if the the Harono story is exactly what I'm after. If I have the story you mean it's called "The First War" and it describes Harono and Lady Drero. He just admires her virtue and declares himself her protector. She does nothing. Better is the passage just after that, under "The Second War" where Ernalda confronts Orlanth. Still not quite what I'm looking for, as it doesn't involve much of a journey, but Ernalda is certainly active in that one. On Elmal/Yelmalio he'd happily do for the fire tribe emissary, but I wanted to leave it open so that others could be used as well.

Thanks for the replies. I can see the points about Yelm, replacing that with another solar god. That will probably make the food exchange make more sense. I'll make some changes to that bit. I'll post a revised version, but I'll give it a little longer to see if there are any other suggestions. I do want to write another one (at least) about Ernalda. One would be where Yelm actually has to exert himself to win her. It might suit the Yelmic point of view that the universe just gifted her to him. A just reward for his divine righteousness. But I doubt the Ernaldans would see it that way. Their Goddess isn't simply a prize to be won. I would think their mythology would give her some say in it.

I wanted to try my hand at a myth that could be used as a basis for an Ernaldan Heroquest. This is what I came up with. It's my first go, so I doubt I've got it right. Feedback welcome. --- This is the story of Ernalda and the spindle. You need to learn this story, as all other stories of the great Goddess. In those days Ernalda lived on the slopes of the great Mountain, with her mother Asrelia and her sisters and the rest of her family. It was a time of peace and plenty, when everyone had enough to eat. But Ernalda, even though she was then only one of many earth Goddesses, was always thinking of how to make things better for her family. One day she looked at her family. They were dressed in the skins of animals. Ernalda and her sisters Esrola and Maran sat at the feet of their mother, Asrelia, sewing the skins together to make more clothes, for in those days the Earth clan was always growing larger. Ernalda looked at the skins in her hands. They were supple enough, but she did not think they were as good as she could manage for her kin. There were always gaps where the pieces were sewn together, the colours were not as beautiful as she thought her sisters and nieces deserved and they did not last as long as they should. “There is always a better way,” the Goddess thought. She knew that it was up to her to find it. (1) So she gathered her favoured companions from her clan about her and set off to find something better. Soon after she started her journey Ernalda encountered the mother of Sheep on the slope of a green hill under the bright sun. This Goddess was not of the Earth tribe, but she was the child of Hykim, one of Ernalda’s lovers. So Ernalda greeted her as kin. “You have a fine coat,” Ernalda commented, for the wool did indeed look fine and Ernalda was of a mind that it could be dyed. “You are not trying to skin me and take it from me are you?” the mother of Sheep replied warily. “No,” the Goddess replied, for that was not her way. “But do you need it all? Perhaps I could trade you a service for some of it?” The mother of sheep agreed and allowed the Goddess to cut some of her coat and take it. (note 2) Ernalda was pleased with her reward, for it was light and fine and felt very warm. But she did not know how to make it into a garment. For now she simply wrapped the wool around herself. After further journeying Ernalda came upon a dark cave. In that cave was a being she had not met before. It had the shape of a great spider. (note 3) “Should I eat you, little Goddess?” the spider enquired. “You look like you would make a fine meal.” “I would rather you did not,” Ernalda replied politely. For even though death had not yet been discovered, being eaten was hardly pleasant. “As you wish,” the spider shrugged. “What are you doing with that wool wrapped around you? Are you trying to be a sheep?” Ernalda had a suspicion that the creature was laughing at her. “I am looking for a way to make better clothes for my kin.” The spider was quiet for a while. “It reminds me of my threads,” the creature said at last. “But before you can make anything of it you need to sort it into a single thread. As I do before I make my web. Would you like me to show you?” “Yes please,” Ernalda replied eagerly. “But what can I offer you in return?” The spider said nothing. Ernalda could feel all the eyes of the creature peering at her. It was not a pleasant feeling. She could feel the spider plucking at the strings of her heart that connected her to her family, like a spider testing its web. But great Ernalda did not quail away, as she was doing this for her family. “Good enough,” the spider declared at last, and then showed Ernalda how it drew its threads between two of its great limbs, spinning the thread to use in its webs. “I do not have limbs like that,” Enralda observed sorrowfully. “Perhaps you should have been a spider,” the spider replied. Ernalda did not want to change her form, but she did want to help her family. “Perhaps I can find something that will work just as well.” “Perhaps you can,” the spider replied, shifting back into the darkness. “I will see you again, little Goddess.” After more journeying Ernalda and her companions found themselves in a great forest. They were much happier to be here than in the cave, for these were the lands of Ernalda’s daughter, Aldrya. On the grounds, amongst the trees, were fallen branches. Ernalda peered at them, for some reminded her of the limbs of the spider, thin and long. Perhaps, she thought, she could use these to spin the wool into thread. She picked one up and started testing it. She was so engrossed in her task that she did not notice her daughter approaching. “You may be my mother but why should I let you take the bones of my children?” Aldrya demanded. “Is that anyway to greet your mother?” Great Ernalda demanded sternly. For even though she was still a young goddess, the Queen dwelt within her. “Your children have no more use of these and all things return to the Earth in time. “Still, they are my children’s,” Aldrya replied petulantly. Despite her daughter’s tone Ernalda knew that Aldrya was correct. “I ask no more than I need, and I will take that only with proper reverence. But you owe me the duty of a daughter.” Aldrya agreed to that and the two parted on pleasant terms. What waited outside the forest for Ernalda was not so pleasant. A foreign God demanded her favours. “You have lain with many, sweet Ernalda. It is my turn now,” he bellowed, thumping his chest. (note 4) Ernalda was not at all enamoured of what this loutish God proposed. Who she did and did not lay with was her choice and hers alone. But she was well aware of the God’s strength. “Not today,” she offered diplomatically. “I am on an errand for my mother.” “That can wait,” the brute insisted, reaching for her. “We shall take our pleasure now.” (note 5) Quick-footed Ernalda evaded his grasp. But she knew his passion would not be so easily cooled. She took to her heels and fled with her companions, who had made sure a passage was available to her. The God and his comrades followed hotly but wily Ernalda managed to fool his pursuit and put some distance between them. She knew, however, that he would not give up that easily. Fortunately she soon came across mighty Orlanth, one of her favourites amongst her many lovers, taking his ease at the bank of a river. (note 6) “Ernalda,” the great God smiled, obviously pleased to see her. “Come, lie down here beside me and let us take our ease,” he smiled, patting the next to him. Ernalda had to admit her lover’s charms, but she was tired of the demands of men that day. Despite his entreaties, she resisted. “I think not,” she replied, skipping out of Orlanth’s reach. “I am pursued by a brute and am in need of your help.” “I see no foes,” Orlanth observed, after scanning the horizon. “And I am far of sight. Come, lie with me, for the day is glorious.” With that, the god lay back down and closed his eyes, a smile on his face. Ernalda knew her pursuit was close behind and that Orlanth was blinded by his desire for her. She reasoned and entreated with the God to ready himself but he did not rouse. Then she pleaded and still he lay on his back. In the end she had had enough. “Get up you lazy lout and do your duty,” she cried. For even though she was already very fond of Orlanth, sometimes that is how you must deal with men. “Or is lying in the grass and taking your pleasure all you are good for?” Ashamed, mighty Orlanth roused himself and called his companions to him, ready to fight. “I think you should depart, sweet Ernalda,” Orlanth declared. “I would hate to see you wounded.” Ernalda was happy to agree, although she did promise to meet him again. A safe distance on, Ernalda sat down on a rock. It is called Ernalda’s rest, and you can still see it today. She was tired from her journey and did not want to return home until she had tested her new tool. To her frustration, no matter how much she tried, it would not spin the wool into a thread as the spider’s limbs had done for the web. She was growing very frustrated with it all when another God happened upon her. This was shining Yelm, who was not yet Emperor of the Gods. (note 7) After greeting Ernalda politely the God asked her what she was doing. And that she could not get it to work. “Ah,” the great god replied, stroking his beard in thought. “You have not the strength of the spider to hold the stick still. Perhaps you need a weight.” With that he gave her a round metal disk, with a hole in the middle. Ernalda slipped the disk on the end of one stick. It held the stick steady. The Goddess was very pleased, for now the wool spun into a single thread. “I must give you something in return,” she declared. “There is no need,” Yelm smiled. “Consider it a favour.” Ernalda did not like this idea. She did not wish to be endebted to anyone. And something told her that being in this shining God’s debt might be a bad idea. Eventually she managed to persuade Yelm to take some of the food she had left, as her journey was almost at an end. With that she returned home to her mother, sisters and other family, who were much pleased to see her again. They were now able to spin wool and other things into thread. After that Ernalda learnt how to make her great loom so that she could weave the thread into clothes and blankets and other useful items. But that is another story. --- Notes, from a Lhankhor Mhy commentary on the myth. This myth is one often chosen by Enrnaldan heroquesters when they seek a boon for their clan or other community, especially one they have not had before. (1) Some texts have this as “There is always another way” (2) While this variant does not describe the service performed, sometimes Ernalda cleans the remaining coat, in others one or more of her companions deals with a foe that has been troubling the Mother of Sheep. Sometimes Ernalda simply provides food from the supplies she brought for the journey. (3) The identity of the spider is not specified in the story. Some scholars posit it is a darkness spirit, one friendly with the Earth Goddesses. Others claim it could not be, as it is clear from earlier in the story that these events do not occur in the Darkness ages and Darkness spirits were not roaming the world in the Green or Golden Ages. But this is the Gods Age and such things were possible. There are even a few who argue that the great spider is Glorantha herself, showing favour to Great Ernalda. They rely on the supposed link between Arachnae Solara and Glorantha, proposing that the linkage between the Goddess Glorantha and a spider form predates the events in the Underworld at the culmination of the Lightbringers quest. Most scholars do not accept this interpretation. (4) Unlike this version, an identity is often given, being a deity worshipped by enemies of the local populace of wherever the story is being told. No version has been recorded though, where the God is Yelm, although other fire deities have been noted. Also, in some versions the encounter with this God and the husband/protector occur earlier in the story, such as just before or just after the encounter with the spider. (5) Some versions have the God being much more explicit about exactly what he wants to do to Ernalda. (6) Other versions of this story replace Orlanth with the favoured husband/protector of Ernalda in whatever locale the story is told. (7) In some versions another Fire deity acts as a messenger from Yelm. A version from Peloria has been recorded where the messenger is Verithurusa, the white moon. --- Stations (1) Preparation – the quester prepares for the journey and gathers her companions (2) Encountering friendly but distant kin and a trade is made (3) Encountering a stranger, usually darkness aligned, and undergoing a test of worth (normally by rolling against an appropriate attribute such as the Earth Rune or connection to kin/clan) (4) Encountering the Aldryami or something standing in for them. The first important point here is that the quester must fail to notice their approach. The second is that the quester must prove the sovereignty of the Earth, by succeeding on a roll on an appropriate attribute. (5) A hostile and foreign God. Note that the ability to move this encounter around provides some variation to the story and can keep the players on their toes. The quester needs to escape and then draw away. (6) A husband/protector. The quester must resist the god’s temptation and then rouse him to action. Meeting the husband/protector also allows very adventurous players to leave this heroquest and branch off into a story of the husband/protector, where they fight an enemy to gain Ernalda’s favour. (7) A Light deity, or representative thereof. The quester must make sure to not leave the encounter endebted, or the object of the quest will soon be lost to Sun worshippers.

Which leaves an interesting opening for a group of Lunar PCs. Can you save the movement? And who of those in charge are sympathetic to your cause? If it's the Hero Wars, heroes can make a difference.

Sounds fine and reasonable to me. I've been toying around with how to move the whole eleven lights to Colymar PCs.

Thanks Jeff What was the population before it fell to the Lunars? Is there a lot of empty space/abandoned buildings or have they been refilled?

I'd forgotten about them

I think I may have read that back in the early 00's and it was what spurred my thinking. What I was postulating was an even more explicit Lunar victory. Possibly even Lunar Heroquesters (PCs) are the ones that help the Goddess shed her red skin. While those barbarian windbags are kicked in the teeth and sent packing having got nowhere near the Moon. But my real point is that all these stories and more should be possible. Argrarth the heroic liberator Argrath the tormented hero who realises just how much is being lost Argrath the reincarnation of Arkat who doesn't care about the cost Argrath the reincarnation of Lokamayadon (oo - isn't it just so convenient all those gods die. Hail Argrath!) All sorts of variations where the Lunars win Others where there is a compromise between Sedenya and Orlanth about the middle air Yet more where, while Dragon Pass might be the crucible, the real outcome of the hero Wars is decided somewhere else (ie, where the PCs are) And others I can't begin to list. At the moment there's room for all that. Please keep it that way.

Was wondering how mining works in Glorantha. Metal is the bones of the gods, but only *sometimes* (and I seem to remember rarely at that) turns up in bone shape. Who does the mining? There's no miner occupation for Sartarites in SKoH (but there is one for stickpickers). What God do miners worship? For Olanthis is it Esolia (the body of the earth) or Ty Kora Tek (the hidden wealth of the earth)? Actually neither seems right to me. They may need propitiating, but I suspect there is a different god for miners. Almost certainly an earth god. Where is metal found? Glorantha is magical. The distribution of metal deposits shouldn't be the same as for the RW, where it is governed by physics and geology. Maybe it's more in plains, as that's where battles between the gods were more likely to have been fought? How deep underground is it? Is it like Bronze age mining? https://study.com/academy/lesson/the-bronze-age-mining-smelting-casting-metallurgy.html has a picture of ancient copper mine. Very narrow tunnel. I vaguely remember ancient Spanish silver mines looking the same. Or is it closer to the surface and we are almost looking at open cast mining? Looking at Sartar, do all tribes/clans have sources of bronze/copper/tin (at least)? If not, which ones do and which ones don't? How many members of such clans are actively engaged in the mining occupation? I can't believe that Sartar imports all its metal. This isn't just academic. Maybe your mine runs out and you have to heroquest to fix the problem (maybe finding a new deposit). If a clan doesn't have a source of metal on its lands, it's going to need to trade. That means diplomacy, bartering and shipping (caravans). All potential story sources. What happens if your partner's mine runs out? If they decide to stop trading with you? Maybe someone else is offering them a better deal. If you're digging in the earth metal might not be all you find. Darkness spirits? Krashtkid tunnels? Other buried chaos horrors?

Here's a story line I've occasionally toyed with for a campaign. Orlanth made mistakes and fixed them. He did some really bad things. Yelm was his uncle (see the diety family tress in the guide and the ritual Orlanthi challenge to solar worshippers). He's a kinslayer. You could make a case that his action let chaos into the world. But he recognised his error and fixed it, as best he could. Now, the Red Goddess is, at least in her re-ascendancy, a lot younger. A lot earlier on her path. Has she made mistakes? Yep (hello, crimson bat, for starters). What if she started trying to fix things? Maybe she needs to , to become the white moon again. But she's now bound by the cosmic compromise, having proved her place in it by the actions at Castle Blue. So maybe she has to act through a determined band of worshippers (ie, the PCs). Maybe they have to persaude Jar-Eel (the Lunar emperor being a lost case). Jar-Eel and the PCs having to deal with two slavering barbarian hordes on the one hand (Argrath and co and the Pentians) and the recidivist elements of the empire on the other while dealing with the magical aspects of this, possible culminating in a great heroquest to save/retrieve the world from ruin, looks to me like something that has story potential. Now, the above might be an extreme left turn on the normal progression. But that's partly my point. I want a Glorantha where stories like this are *possible*. Where we have the immense detail and the possibility to find our own ways through it and craft our own end.

Which community/way of life is good? Which community/way of life is bad? I don't think there are simplistic answers to that. This isn't Middle Earth. At the heart of Glorantha is that no one way knows everything or is wholly correct about its understanding of the world. Just about every culture in Glorantha has tried to impose its point of view on another by force of arms. The Lunar Empire is doing it 'now'. Argrath will try to do it soon. And they are far from alone. Have the Lunars done things that would be judged questionable (even evil) by the norms of our society? Almost certainly (and I only say almost because of what certain governments seem to be able to get away with). Judged by the norms of Bronze age/Iron age empires? The Lunars are pretty par for the course. I don't think the Lunars are trying to destroy the world. They're trying another way to deal with the Chaos that it seems to be impossible to totally eradicate from Glorantha (violence is always an option but there is is always another way). If we were to judge communities by mistakes they made en masse in Glorantha than the Orlanthi record is hardly spotless. This might sound odd but I don't want there to be a conclusion to the " who is good/bad" discussion. Because a lack of a conclusion leaves the space for us to find the answers we want/discover ("they are, no they are, no all of them all, no none of them are") in our own games. I think this thread proves the genius in the creation of Glorantha - the space for interpretation and creativity in such a richly detailed world. If I had one wish in this it is that Chaosium does not say "well canonically Argrath smashes the Lunar empire, all the gods are killed and yeah, everyone forgets how to read." We're supposed to be making our own stories here, and having the end imposed on us doesn't help that. I also don't believe that that was Greg's intention - for the reason I posted earlier.

Which just goes to show 'empire bad'. Which someone earlier pointed out is pretty much a rule of Glorantha. And anyway, that only happens if the Sartarites 'win'. Otherwise it's the LUnars blowing stuff up. Or the Pentian nomads or... But I agree with your characterisation of the Sartarites. The more I think about it the more I think both the Lunar Empire and Argrath's 'empire' end up bad. Those are in no way the same things as the Lunar way and the Orlanthi way. The world was saved by the great compromise and there is always another way.

It's in Storm Tribe, if nowhere else (p. 106). So all normal caveats about it bo longer beiung canon. That said, it describes the 'Bare Blades' philosophy, which is that Humakti should have no relationships, no sex, no marriage and that any children of Humakti are undead (but that Humakti destroy undead powers have never worked on such children) and the 'Hoods' philosophy that says Humakti can marry, have kids, etc as Humakti's connection to death gives them a special sensitivity to life. It also notes that followers of both philosophies get a blessing from Humakti to be happy with their choice. Humakt is an even-handed guy, isn't he?

Yes Prince of Sratar comic is another thing I've known of but never looked at. Thanks for the reminder. The Jonstown compendium is somewhere I'll spending money real soon. Like probably this weekend. My original Rough Guide to Glamour looks like it's getting replaced.

Am I allowed to cheer? Because I want to. The medieval aspect of the west was always my least favourite part of Glorantha. I always thought there was an Anglo-Saxon element to the Orlanthi pitch as well as the Nordic and Celtic. Not that it matters. Thracian/Halstatt Celt/Vedic? Hmm. That's stretching my history knowledge. I'll have to go look. Thanks again

Thanks. I really wasn't sure what 13th Age was or the current status of RQ. I know HQ/HW - up to a point. You'll find my name in the backer's list of GtG, but it was shortly after that that I lost touch. The sheer bulk of those volumes was something I put off engaging with until, well, now. I bought HQ Glorantha a few years back, but have only just now read it. I've ordered Coming Storm/Eleven Lights and the RQ slipcase set (and the sourcebook). Do the Lunars still have phalanxes armoured in the Greek style? To me their Empire always felt Persian but their army looked Greek. And thanks to Dissolv for that point about the armour of armies.

I'm being picky, but don't you mean intra-tribal? I would assume most marriages would be from clans in the same tribe that your clan is friendly with. Their might even be marriage rings: Clan A typically gets spouses from clan B who get spouses from clan C who get spouses from clan A. Another use for the 'friendly clans' in the clan generation. Of course, someone falling for a potential spouse in an enemy clan is great story potential. Also, SKoH (p34) says "The clan is a social unit, not a geographical boundary. Lands belonging to one clan overlap with those of another, more than one clan often shares villages, and members of different clans interact on a daily basis." So marrying the girl/boy next door isn't out of the question - as long as they belong to a different clan. And I know it's not canon any more, but in Thunder Rebels, under Ernalda Allmother, there is the subcult Vela matchmaker, with some very interesting specific abilities.

I think that's very much up to the PCs and GM. The future displayed in KoS is only one possibility.

Fair points. if you mean Argrath's story tends, for a while at least, to be a series of battles, then that could be a bit dry. But part of what we're running up against here is that Arkat is very definitely in the past. His story is known (well, more or less). If you pin Argrath's story down too much it removes creative space for the GM & players. So it has to be blank/bland to some extent to allow the group to take it in the direction that works for them. So yes, the outline of Argrath's story that we have is unsatisfying. That let's us take it in the direction that makes it satisfying for our games. And each will be different. Is Argrath glorious hero who repeatedly tromps his enemies? A once great hero who spirals into madness? Someone who reaches out to his enemy as Orlanth did to Yelm? I don't want to know. Because I could see each of those (and more) being used to make a campaign that has a rewarding story.

Like Arkat swore to take down Nysalor and did? And look how that turned out... To me, well, Argrath did if you follow King of Sartar, and again it doesn't seem to have been an entirely good idea. So you can look on Argrath's quest as obsession beyond the point of ignoring the consequences. That offers some dramatic possibilities. Whether or not you go with the PCs can stop this idea. On the other hand if it's a will he win or will the Lunars, there's options that way too.

How about a ragged group of Tarshites trying to survive as Lunars and Sartarites swap ownership of their country.

Thanks all - that's very helpful and much appreciated. Michael