DrGoth

That's assuming a) RQ combat applies to superheroes/heroes b) a given hero or superhero doesn't have a gift like "take minimum damage from all weapons"

Three of those we don't have yet - hopefully soon.

Meaning there are many possible endings. YAY!!!!!!!!!

Which seems to imply that the Far Placers were never Elmali, they were always Yelmalio, although not always Sun Domers. Which does retcon WF#15. Unless (playing trickster for a moment) the Far Placers got to the Far place, wanting to dump everything Solar, because the Yelmites supported the Lunars. "Hmm, Yelmalio is a bit too close to Yelm. Hey, what's this Elmal cuilt those people down south have?" Or should Far Placers (at least some of them) going Yelmalio -> Elmal -> Yelmalio be put in the "Your dumbest theory" thread? Mainly because a) I don't want to retcon WF#15 and b) I so like the idea of a crotchety old Elmali Far Placer.

Has it been retconned that much? I think it would be a mistake. Because if the Far Place was Yelmalio and no Elmal, than Monrogh was a bit of a non-event. "Let's worship the god of those guys up the road! I hear he's really cool!" The people of Far Place might Tarshite/Sairdite origin. But they are *Orlanthi* from their. Not Solar worshippers. And those Orlanthi came from where at the dawning? THeir ancestors could have brought Elmal with them, and then eventually they brought it back to the Far Place.

Wouldn't that make the God Learners superheroes? I find that doubtful.

That's why I said "I would never give" rather than "You should never give". YGWV

I agree. Unless it was something clearly laid out in advance I would never give a player a chaos feature (and everything that flows from that) from a random role about a crystal. There would have to be warning signs the player deliberately ignored.

Well, they may have been Yelmalio already, but that doesn't mean they always were. Check Wyrms Footnoters #15, page 41, which is in the article on the Far Place. "The Aldachuri gave the Golden Spearman a shrine in the Elmal Temple" That means they had an Elmal temple. Now that was somewhere in the period 1455-1490, so some time before the present setting. A little later in that article it has "In the mid-1500s, Lunar magicians proved to the tribal priests that the Golden Spearman was a son of Emperor Yelm and an enemy of Orlanth." It also talks about Monrogh around there. It also says the Elmali at Alda-Chur recognised Yelmalio, but those at Ironspike stuck with Elmal. So lots went over to Yelmalio, but by 1625 there might (maybe) be some old-style hangers on.

Which is the dumb theory, the first paragraph or the second? 😁

Sorry, but I'm still confused. Let's say we've got a small(ish) clan. 500 initiates. 100 of those initiates are Seven Mothers. I can't see them all packing off to the city come Sacred Time. That's really not helping the clan stay as a stable unit. Let's assume the rest of the clan (Lightbringer initiates) is not trying to convert or get rid of them. My take is that they would have a Seven Mothers shrine in the clan lands. The SM and LB initiates hold separate pantheon specific rituals in sacred time and then come together for something they can do together - which I think would most likely be a round a non-pantheon specific Wyter (ancestor or local spirit). What this tells me is that those clans with LB linked Wyters are likely the ones with lower than average Seven Mothers. That 500 SM initiates in the countryside for a tribe is not necessarily evenly distributed amongst the clans. I don't see it as concentrated in a single clan, or even a majority in one or two (remember, these are post 1625 figures). But that means some clans have a sizeable SM minority and the clan will have to have some way of hanging together as a community. A Wyter they can all relate to is my best guess at the moment.

That's where Alda Chur and Jonstown differ, at least according to Jeff's figures. The 'other tribes' total 1200 between, so not many in each clan. But tribes around Alda Chur have 500 each in addition to the 500 in Alda-chur. It's a much higher number in the countryside there than elsewhere in Sartar, Once you get numbers that high, how the clan remains a single community becomes an issue. Do we have clans where being an initiate of one and a lay member of the other is just what happens?

As Radmonger says, according to the rules a shrine needs 75-225 lay members and initiates. If the tribe has 500 SM initiates, than I think a few clans around Alda-Chur would have Seven Mother shrines.

Fair point about Orlanth's stead. So that interaction could be either golden or lesser storm. And yes, the Celestial court must be there in the Green Age.

I'm thinking about clans that these two apply to. That's how the Seven Mothers initiates get their cult specific sacred time rituals. But what do these clans do for all-clan sacred time rituals?

I don't think either of these is green age. Wouldn't the first be Golden Age and the second be lesser storm age?

Scott-Martin posted the above in another thread (I Think I'm Going to Make Up My Own Elmal Cult). But it got me thinking here. Let's take what he says as correct. It sounds reasonable to me. So going back to where I started this thread, with some figures from Jeff about Seven Mothers Initiates in Sartar. The numbers included some clans with 500 initiates. I don't think they would be concentrated in a single clan. So they are spread over a few clans, forming a not insignificant minority. So what happens with these clans come sacred time? Those clans are going to need some sort of Sacred Time ceremony where they come together as a community. At least if they want to stay a community. Which I assume these clans do. I find it unlikely that the Seven Mothers initiates are going to be welcome in the Lightbringer ceremonies (or want to take part). Maybe (big maybe to me) some are both Seven Mothers and Lightbringer initiates, but I actually find that unlikely. The Seven Mothers will obviously have its own Sacred Time rituals. Which the Seven Mothers initiates will want to take part in. And which, conversely, the Lightbringer initiates won't and won't be welcome at. So for a start it looks like we have communities carrying out very separate sacred time rituals. That's not unheard of (at least, I don't think it is). Take clans with a big (say) Humakti population. The Humakti Sacred Time rituals will likely be separate to the (majority) Lightbringer rituals. But if we take Scott's position, the community still needs something to come together around. One option is that could focus on the Wyter, if the Wyter isn't directly tied one of the pantheons. The Wyter, afterall, is the spirit of the community. It's a big part of what makes it a community. Perhaps it's a local spirit. Perhaps it's an ancestor. Even if some people have switched to Seven Mothers, they are still all kin. With the Wyter being (pun intended) agnostic to the split between the two pantheons, it remains something the whole community can congregate around. The full community ceremony could be focussed on the ancestors, even if the Wyter isn't an ancestor. Things may get trickier if the Wyter is (say) an Orlanth spirit. I imagine at least some of those clans would have had those? How is it going to react to these Seven Mother community members? Maybe it's happy to accept their magic points. Maybe not. Have some of these clans had to change their Wyter? Any thoughts on what sacred time looks like for these communities, and how they mythically remain cohesive, are welcome.

A duck in flight?

OK, but I thought that was basically the same cult, right down to pikes and phalanxes, just a different name for the god. So Antirius = Yelmalio, same spells, same myths. Or have I just turned over another heaping pile of dog poo? 😉

That'd be good for at least one NPC. A crotchety old Emali who never "got the memo". I mean, it could happen - look at the members of the Catholic church who are still a little peeved the mass isn't in Latin - and that change was a while back.

I thought the Pelorian sundomes were Yelmalio without interruption? And that's the majority of Yelmalio worshippers, even post 1625? In that sense, aren't Sartar and Prax just the country bumpkin cousins of the main Yelmalio cult? One thing I don't know, who was actually did worship Elmal? Was it just Praxians and those Orlanthi around Esrolia (some of whom migrated to become Sartar)? Or was it more widespread than that?

Well, I thought I saw a canon list somewhere that include wyrms footnotes #15 in canon, but not the rest. So I was just wondering.

I can see that. i cans till see them having two breeds, especially with the larger horses coming from Peloria.

I forgot about that... Although are those spikes still canon? 😉

Thanks! Just a few comments/questions/ideas I like that some of those fashions would be followed, even by anti-Lunars (in our world, how many people who don't like America follow American trends?) And maybe more sloped roofs? Because of the snow. Sloped roofs were very well known in the ancient worlds. And then (even allowing for Yarandros) Might there be less decoration on the buildings? So southern Sartar, following Esrolia, might have more paint etc on the external walls then the Far Placers use? With more and higher sloped roofs and less decoration it would give a different architectural feel. I take Jeff's points, but in 1625 how many would be Yelmalions and how many Elmali? I know Harvar is a Yelmalio Light Captain, but even so there would still be a substantial Elmal population at that time, wouldn't there? with the Elmali tradition to the Far Place, even if the number of Elmali are down, I'm not sure about this? Maybe they have a couple of horse types. Larger ones for warfare or long distance travel, a pony type for getting around in the wilder areas? Less cool looking, I can see that. But I think the amount of stone use wouldn't differ too much. Sartar built the roads and the walls, right? Not so much of the buildings inside the walls and certainly not things like farmsteads (unless I've got it wrong). Maybe, in line with the (possible) parsimony, it's more undressed/unplastered stone? Maybe a different mix? I'm assuming the main crop would still be barley with somee wheat. But barley comes in different varieties (such as the number of kernel rows in the head -2,4,6. And 4 is apparently unsuitable for beer making. So maybe while there is barley in the field it looks different to southern fields. Maybe it's even varieties that are more cold-resistant.