Ormi Phengaria

Suffice to say, I don't think it's a dead end! I think this is the most productive avenue for interpreting Chaos-as-antagonist. And this will bring us slightly back into the original topic. Here's my key: every conflict of the Gods War was Chaotic. Chaos was the death and devastation the gods and their followers invited upon themselves by refusing to understand the Other as anything but an existential threat or the ruin of their perfection. Chaos is the rejection of change. All change is oblivion, because all changes result in the loss of what was prior, however small or subtle. Only by establishing continuity with what came before, by making meaning, by transforming this Chaos into observable and eternal patterns, does it become not-oblivion. Broos are Chaotic down to the hollow cores of their being. They are willful in their pursuit of abuse, violence, and atrocity. But they are also blameless—literally. Broos are Chaotic because Theyalans refuse to face up to the social issues of traumatic stress, rape, and in-group sexuality. They refuse to form an integrated understanding of these things. They write off Ragnaglar as mad and blame Thed for the sexual abuses she suffered. When these terrible things happen again, they wail and agonize about how there's simply nothing to be done. Through this deflection and projection, they create Broos.

Illumination doesn't justify anything. It's pure insight, no prescription. You are now free, and have to figure out what that means on your own. And that false parallel is where most people will end up without some form of guidance: salving existential anxiety by substituting their personal, individual evaluations for the lost Absolute. A kind of brute egoism we might identify with the Disorder rune. Strange people violate your cult proscriptions and nothing comes of it. You try to fight back against this decay of the universe, but their magic seemingly proves them right. You start to feel the existential anxiety too. And even then, maybe with most people it just leads to self-destructive behaviour; with a bit of agitation and organization, maybe a populist consciousness, your Want Mores and Make Me a Dukes. Good things can result! This can be authentically liberating in every possible sense. The shackles are broken, the tyrant is slain, the arbitrary whims called law are abolished, the abuses suffered cease. And Nysalor will smile now, saying "this too shall pass." Illumination doesn't tell you to stop, it doesn't let you know that this accomplished world of harmony and golden light is worth more than what you get for it. You'll keep going. The destruction you wrought previously is not integrated into the universe; it has proven to exist for its own sake. It is Chaos. Western philosophy has a funny pejorative term for all of this in "nihilism". "Nihilism" is the pessimistic self-negation, which comes of the death of God, that says absent higher existential meaning, suicide is the only justifiable course. "Nihilism" is also in the existentialist response to this which says that meaning comes from your willful action, either with a minimal leap of faith back to God, or a more maximal, Nietzschean embrace of "nihilism's" liberating destruction. Likewise, the West didn't stop, didn't find its collective amor fati or some other line of flight, and the philosophers identified "nihilism" in what came after too.

Buddhism doesn't equate nirvana with oblivion. That's been nearly universally held for thousands of years. In essence, it isn't Chaotic. But widespread Illumination, by itself, will inevitably lead to Chaos. Widespread Illumination is possible whenever the fundamental coherence of the cosmos is probed, whenever worldviews begin collapsing with nothing ready to replace them, spreading as some variety of sickness. That is what Nysalor represents, and the outcome being what it is is why Gbaji is the most subtle form of Chaos. The creative power of oblivion remains destructive. In taking away, something new is formed: a vessel is useful for its empty space. Time is lived and experienced in the empty spaces, too. But that doesn't make Chaos a generative force in itself. By itself, it will make Everything into Nothing. Gbaji says this is fine, because there's no difference between the drinking cup, the emptiness of your heart, and the annihilation of the world. It's fine, because in the end all of these things are the same.

Orthodox mystic ways seem to be about cultivating a direct connection to the Transcendent. This is astonishingly difficult to achieve; one must mentally abjure all division, all causation, all presence and all absence while nonetheless one's own mind remains entangled in such things. This is why austere practices can foster such a connection. This recognition allows the Void to be approached as and understood for what it is, rather than as Glorantha's "opposite." Illumination is different. Illumination is recognition of the union of opposites. At its most fundamental, this means a recognition of the truth that Chaos is not ultimately inimical to Glorantha. But—crucially!—Chaos it remains. Oblivion it remains! This can be a profoundly disturbing realization to have thrust upon you, and the realization itself does not necessarily equip you to integrate it into more prosaic parts of your existence. Most so afflicted turn to the Shadow of Illumination, become "Occluded", and will give themselves to Chaos.

That is probably not why Nysalor has the Chaos rune, no. The "Nature of the Cult/Reason for Continued Existence," "The Dark Side" and "Arkat the Destroyer" entries in Nysalor/Gbaji's CoT writeup, read in succession, are particularly pertinent to addressing that question, in my opinion. Very important distinction: the Void is not identical to Nothing. It isn't absence or loss. It is less than nothing.

I've thought of the "Reaching Moon" as "the moon beyond its confines":

It is. Primal Chaos is the point of contact between Glorantha and the Void. But within Glorantha, in relationship to it as a cosmic twin rather than as a primordial unity, it is perceived to be something else. Chaos appears when the world has reached its perfection—when and where further change makes the world "worse". The change that Chaos works becomes Oblivion. Conversely, obliterating, corrupting, lessening changes are Chaos.

I'll offer Kino from Kino's Journey. A perpetual outsider who travels with only her motorcycle, Hermes, for companionship. She learns and teaches, probes boundaries, respects the customs of the places she visits on their own terms, destroys entire countries, draws out the unconscious and provokes the shadow. Violence and change often accompany her visits despite her placid nature.

Gark's world is a forever diminished one which cannot see value in agency or personality or even change. Gark's peace is oblivion. Zorak Zoran's world is, ultimately, the one you see around you. If he killed and destroyed everything, he would lose himself, and the world would find itself reborn in any case.

There's nothing in the Orlanthi initiation rites requiring you to have a penis. I would expect Vingans to undergo them the same as any boy, with other Vingans (or even just knowledgeable men-- big weird world out there!) teaching them the story of When Vinga Got Pregnant. Otherwise, it's just pain and bleeding-- nothing strange to any follower of Adventurous. The question of menarche for Nandani is different, and to my knowledge Nandan hasn't ever been portrayed as "of course not" a woman. Current Well entry: "Nandan is the god worshipped by women who are born in the shape of men." So it's worth wondering how to resolve that.

Oh? Where? The Orlanthi and Ernaldan initiations archived on the Well of Daliath are specifically noted as gender-specific, and certainly read that way.

To the OP: as far as I know, the Orlanthi don't practice "puberty rites." They practice adulthood rites which are associated with certain signs of secondary sexual development. One can be born intersex and end up menstruating; one can be born male but never develop androgenic body hair. But I don't think the assumption that this means they'll never initiate via the Ernaldan or Orlanthi rites is sustainable, because those are primarily about gender. How are Nandani who don't experience menarche chosen to initiate to Ernalda, for example? I think that would be a much more fruitful avenue of inquiry. Also, the prevalence of intersex conditions is closer to 1.7-2%; lower numbers are usually more specifically referring to ambiguous genitalia at birth.

As usual with this kind of knee-jerk grumpiness, you're the one who is wrong even under your own terms. In biology, hermaphroditic individuals are those with more than one form of reproductive cell. Human intersex individuals are those with ambiguous genitalia, divergent development of secondary sexual characteristics, or sex hormone insensitivities; there are no humans capable of reproducing with both ova and sperm.

Isn't his High Holy Day the first day of the year? Day 147 (294/2) is Godsday of Stasis Week in Earth Season.

Wonderful post. One clarification I would like to make. "Anyone can do it" as in "it can happen to anyone," definitely. But there are a lot of traditions, particularly ones relying somewhat less on abundant or relatively safe entheogens, where there isn't a guarantee of "yes, this will take you on a spirit journey" even under the guidance of an expert. The spirit world is then usually only approached by lay folk through mediums or as a more theistic-leaning practice. In RQ terms they might lack this ability to lead others in Discorporation. From other posts of yours I've read, I suppose this would be the difference between non-shamans belonging to a spirit society, and belonging to many individual spirit cults-- the former is what provides Discorporation.

From https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/ernaldan-initiation-rites/

Chaining heat into stasis, and remaining imperiously in place as the hot center of the universe! I had already thought about "Lodril Umatum," but not considered it from that angle before. Neat.

Here's a subtle thing: they're distinct between initiating into the Orlanthi culture as a masculine adult, and initiating into a cult as an Orlanthi masculine adult. The Theyalan masculine and feminine adulthood initiations are the ones we have the most detail about, but I wouldn't comfortably say it reflects the majority of Glorantha, and even most of the other cultures in Dragon Pass likely handle it differently. Greg's Ernaldan initiation itself departs from the Orlanthi one in being explicitly both a rite of passage into adulthood and at least halfway into initiating to the cult of the Goddess (you "pause" it when you fall asleep.) Yelm the Youth also seems to be both an initiation into adulthood and an initiation into the cult of Yelm. And so on. So to me it's actually an interesting question why the Orlanthi initiation departs so quickly from identification with deity and into something more deeply ancestral.

It's very worth noting that this is is just the prevailing, received history. Late Third Age Nysaloreans blame the plague upon Gbaji/Arkat, though they still agreed that Nysalor could cure it. Consider the very strange nature of this plague: it was truly incurable by anyone save the Riddlers, and Chalana Arroy was noted as failing against it. Mallia does have a disease like that, her actual plague. But her plague (in RuneQuest) is incurable by anything other than Divine Intervention, or initiating to her cult. Were the Riddlers mass-initiating Westerners into the cult of Mallia? I find that pretty dubious. So... what sort of ailment could be spread by both Arkat and Nysalor, and be cured by Illumination? I have a thought, and I'd be surprised if any here had never experienced this sickness!

Orlanth and the other three brothers intervened and tried to heal him of his affliction, but the Other Brother probably never left the Pit, in spirit. The pits were meant to trap and destroy the sons of Umath. We see each of the pits as playing into the strength of each brother, but actually, that was the trap. Humakt could have spent eternity in combat; Urox could have gored and trampled the other beasts; Vadrus could have spun about violently forever. But Humakt turned swords into steps, Urox gave freedom to the predators, and Vadrus adapted himself and then ran away rather than fight. Orlanth befriended rather than conflicted with the Strange Gods as a broader expression of this change. So, the Sex Pit is presumably similar. Sex would have been Ragnaglar's strength, but by pursuing it, he trapped himself. Additionally, the pits all have an expectation of violence (the fundamental attribute of Storm) which is subverted, meaning that Ragnaglar was also expected to rape. He did so, perhaps out of jealousy, more likely deeper torments. By engaging in that violation, he also violated himself, and so did the Storm wound itself more generally. One might get out of this situation by allowing yourself to be vulnerable among those willing to offer empathy and compassion or who have gone through something similar, and consoling and comforting one another. But Umath's Camp was not that place.

Astounding post, but also, weren't the Phoenicians the original Alphabet Mafia?

I think if we are going to discuss this topic, we need to stop dancing around the matter of what the Sex Pit actually was, because I'm starting to get the feeling here that it's not obvious to many! If you think you get out of the Sex Pit by having sex, I must assume you are perhaps closer to Ragnaglar than you may be aware.

I suppose you would need to find a people who didn't rely upon rainfall in their own lands in some form or another. Daga isn't just dryness, but drought. Even in places where the rains come as destructive flash storms and inundation, they are still critical to the survival of all forms of life. He is a child of Famine. If such people exist, I would expect them to either have no need for water, or to have access to some form of fresh water which exists independently of the rains, e.g. fossil water, or perhaps moisture harvest like some desert insects.

With Babeester, I say that you have to have an earthy gender. With Maran, you need not have an earthy gender, but if you have a form of fertility outside of being able to become pregnant, you must give that up to become a god-talker. If you have given that up, but can still bear children, you can become a celibate priestess. This is slightly contradictory, yes, and that is also the point.

After spending the last two weeks in emergency medical responder Chalana Arroy training, I'm pretty sure my entire brain is functioning by acronym now.