svensson

Some more images from my Atalan files. The first is from the BBC's series on the Minoans. The second artist is unknown, but is a Sims game mod. Third is the wonderful Angus McBride. The fourth artist is unknown.

@Rob Darvall 1. Elmal, Yelmalio, and how worshipers see it. There is a distinct difference between those who believe a religious doctrine and the objective facts base on evidence. The doctrinal split between Elmal and Yelmalio is based on God Learner writings and our own very secular take on comparative theology. The way I see the split is that those who are dissatisfied with the Storm Pantheon or Orlanthi culture became Yelmalions and those who were satisfied with Elmal's place and the culture that went along with it stayed with Elmal. My statement of 'that's not the way we do it, so what?' is from the believer's standpoint not a doctor of divinity's lectern. 2. The Sun Domes and Horses. In WF15, @Jeff Richards portrays the County of Vanntar [the Sun Dome Temple in Dragon Pass] as also having given up the horse to focus on their Templar phalanxes. If this is common among all SDTs, it could be that Yelmalion doctrine has backed off the horse aspect of the portfolio out of respect of Yelm's focus on it. But a very beneficial side effect of that for Sky cultists isolated in a land full of Storm and Earth worshipers is the emphasis on xenophobia and the social control that a dismounted population gives the temple hierarchy. Less people traveling means fewer people getting silly ideas in their heads... you know, foolish things like free will, personal choice, personal responsibility, dissent with government....

It's an interesting question. But with hundreds of thousands to choose from, it shouldn't be a problem.

The Yelmalio cult is the DDR [aka East Germany] of Glorantha. They're desperately xenophobic, incredibly close-minded, and highly pissed off that their more relaxed neighbors are doing just about everything better than they are. There. I said it.

And just to digress a little bit, it occurs to me that the Yelmalion basic sense of xenophobia and their deep seated need for social control is the single major reason why they abandoned the horse aspect of their faith. Horses let people travel and people traveling leads to all sorts of heretical and forbidden things into the County. You know, like 'ideas' and stuff...

@Lordabdul If you don't hate but respect your drill sergeant/instructor by the end of boot camp, they didn't do their job right 😁 Mind you, I have no idea how wingnuts and mop-jockeys feel about it. They don't have real drills anyway. 😁😁 To all the contributors: My idea here isn't to 'make Yelmalio with serial numbers filed off'. My intention is to make a cult that firmly believes that Yelmalio and Elmal are separate deities with separate myths who share similar but not identical portfolios. I strongly feel that if I construct this right Elmal worshipers will simply not care what Yelmalions are up to any more than a modern Baptist cares about what a Lutheran is up to. The sects will be different enough that they will attract their own worshipers. I have this mental scenario where some doctrinaire Light Son starts quoting chapter and verse [in Firespeech, of course] and Elmal Light Thane says 'So what? That's not how we do that and it doesn't matter to us."

I would think that would depend on whether the Rune Spells are one-use or not. I don't see a 'Glorantha' or 'Stafford-logic' reason why you couldn't access different traditions. After all, a Lhankor Mhy sage in RQG has Spirit Magic, Rune Magic and Sorcery in the repertoire of a single person, something impossible in RQ3. But if the Rune spells are reusable, that's rather different. A reusable Rune spell is an investment by a deity into their worshiper, a sharing of powers. If an ancestor worshiper gains Orlanth magic from an ancestor, I don't think they ought to be able to cast that ancestor's Rune spells reusably.

To collective brain trust: I'm generally satisfied with the Spirit Magic list but do you think that adding Speedart and/or Multimissile would be too much?

@metcalph Alright. I can see your point there. Now I strongly believe that Orlanth Rex ought to provide Elmal's cult with a spell in gratitude for the Loyal Thane's just and honorable care for Orlanth's people while he was on the Lightbringer's Quest. Orlanth Thunderous is important to the tula for his weather control magic. That also supports that 'concerns at home' sensibility in the cult. So if we wish to discard an Orlanth subcult, logically it would be Orlanth Adventurous. It seems to me that the solution is to move Shield up to the Rune Spells known and taught by Elmal's cult, and remove the other Orlanth Adventurous magics altogether.

To quote the line from 'The 13th Warrior', "Lo, there I see the line of my people going back to the beginning..." Every single man and woman in your family going back into the Godtime is an 'ancestor' by the standards of Daka Fal. There are so many that you couldn't possibly know all their names. In the Spirit Plane of Glorantha, there are hundreds of thousands of spirits who are directly related to you by blood lineage on either side of your parentage. This is why the table for Summon Ancestor is random.

So proposed cult nuts and bolts mechanics [Notes: All spells in RQG, will consider custom spells later; I really prefer the individual Spirits of Reprisal as opposed to RQG's generic spirit attack, so I'll include them here. Still working on the Rune qualifications - no, there won't be gifts and geasa] Cult Skills: Animal Lore, Herd, Ride Horse, Scan, Bow, Spear Spirit Magic Spells: Detect Enemies, Firearrow, Fireblade, Ignite, Mobility; Shimmer. Initiates taught Ignite for free. Extinguish is forbidden and must be forgotten Rune Spells: Cloud Clear, Command [Horse], Sunbrighten, Sureshot, Truespear. All Darkness or fire/light extinguishing magic forbidden. -- Orlanth Adventurous provides Shield and Wind Words -- Orlanth Thunderous provides Cloud Call; provides Thunderbolt to High Priest -- Orlanth Rex provides Detect Honor; provides Command Worshipers to High Priest -- Chalana Arroy provides Restore Health Spirit of Reprisal: Those who betray Elmal suffer two curses, all of which are cumulative: 1. Initiates must make a POW v. POW roll every time they wish to use [ride, uses a pack or work animal] a horse or horse-related creature [horse, mule, donkey, zebra, etc.]. Such beasts will automatically shy and resist any attempt to approach them. Should Rune Level become apostate, Fire will consider him an enemy and refuse to serve him. Fires will not light for him using any method, he shall not feel warm by any source other than body heat, he will sunburn very easily, his food shall always be tepid or cold, and any Fire spell directed at him shall do +1d6 damage.

From the OP: I VERY much appreciate the thoughts and brainstorming you've all contributed here. Every comment has cause me a moment or three of thought and reflection. I really didn't think there'd be this much interest, and I feel complimented and supported in the project. Thank you. What would be helpful is if some of you could suggest Rune and Spirit magic spells that you think would be available to the cult along with your logic as to why the cult would include such a spell. The cult will teach between 3 and 5 Spirit spells and one or two Rune spells. I do not intend to do a full multi-page write up with a full mythological background and so on. My goal is to offer the one-page summary of what I think Elmal might look like as a Storm oriented hearth-guard deity. I believe I'll have my thoughts in order this week and be able to get it to you for your, um, 'critique' 😉 by the end of the week.

@mfbrandi About your comment regarding 'twisted dream magic'... What is the Godtime and Heroquesting if not 'twisted dream magic'? There is more than one deity in Glorantha that doesn't fit the God Learner models but does fill a niche in a pantheon. From what I've read each pantheon's myth cycles contain their own internal logic that oftentimes is contradictory to other sources. There is a lot of relativism and 'yeah, but' that goes on in Gloranthan theology and no source cleans all of it up... but the believers within the cults consider it all true and valid despite the inconsistencies.

@mfbrandi @Joerg I will probably portray him as receiving his Fire powers [whatever they may be] as the Rider of the Sun Horse who was a Light in the Great Darkness, perhaps as a banked hearthfire that doesn't produce much light but warms all those near.

It's true that a lot of people need to ride horses to get around in a clan, especially in emergencies. But let's not forget that Orlanthi steadings are pretty self-sufficient for most day to day problems. Ernalda provides the women of the stead with some pretty solid Healing spells, while Orlanth handles things like weather, protection, and even offensive spells. So if a steading has 6 or 8 initiated adults on it, you can almost bet cash money that at least one of the women will have Heal Body or Regrow Limb [both vital on a farm where accidents happen] and at least one of the men will have Cloud Call/Clear, Rain, and one of Orlanth's offensive spells. And there are clans that give primacy to other gods than Orlanth. Some focus on war, the hunt, trade or give Ernalda pride of place. In addition, we know that the Narri of the Colymar hold Elmal the Loyal Thane as their patron. So it just seems fair to do a writeup of Elmal as Orlanth's sidekick, not as huge or central to a way of life as Yelmalio and with more of Storm aspect to him.

@Joerg @Akhôrahil Yeah, I know that many cults occupy mythical niches but not practical game mechanic ones. Remember the discussion we all got into regarding Hunter Gods? What I'm hoping to do is scale down the expansiveness of Yelmalio's cult but still add Air/Storm elements to it. Since Elmal is not a Lightbringer, he's not going to have a huge list of spells, especially Rune spells. I'm thinking maybe 4 or 5 Spirit magic spells and one or two Rune spells all told. I want him to be more useful than Odayla and Yinkin, but he should not be as powerful Eurmal or Chalana Arroy. What's more, I don't want him to take the place of cults we're expecting this summer when the GoG books start coming out. Gustbran will still the patron of the 'fire crafters' [smiths, potters, etc.], for one example. The idea is that Elmal will fill a very niche role in the Storm family, but 'stay in his lane' so to speak.

@mfbrandi My vision of Elmal is that he sees the Lightbringer's Quest as being fundamentally Just and Honorable. Orlanth recognizes and admits that he made a mistake, a mistake that is risking the existence of the whole world. So Orlanth publicly admits his mistake and then goes about trying to correct it, partially as an act of contrition and partially save his people. With that in mind, I don't see the Loyal Thane as the grizzled NCO trying to school his new officer. Rather, I see Elmal understanding that Orlanth has lawful duties that pulls him in two opposing directions. Orlanth is not trying to dodge any of his duties, but is conflicted... what is the greater duty, to protect his sworn people or correct his personal error that is causing so much destruction to everyone? In my mind this more like a platoon leader telling his company CO, 'Don't worry, sir. I got things nailed down here. Go do what you have to do'.

@Bren @Rodney Dangerduck @Qizilbashwoman Most tula need patrolling. Just guarding the walls of the chieftain's village isn't sufficient if the rest of the clan is starving. What's more, the thanes owe the whole clan protection not just the nobles and craftsmen. Because of all that, you'll require horsemen to patrol the clan territories. And all that is in addition to the stated canon references of Elmal being the Orlanthi horse deity. The idea here is that if you look over the Pantheons comparatively, you see a series strengths, weaknesses, and minor gods designed to fill niche roles and give the whole pantheon minor access to powers that are strengths in other pantheons. For example, as we are discussing in another thread, Lokarnos isn't a direct equivalent to Issaries, but he does provide the Sky Pantheon with some Movement Rune magic to offset Yelm's tendency towards Stasis. So my idea for Elmal is to provide Storm with minor access to Spear/Archery/Horse/Fire powers. But I'm still mulling over just how much of each and haven't reached any conclusions about that yet.

There is an awful lot written about the Elmal /Yelmalio controversy. @Jeff has even said that Elmal is likely to fade into memory after the Cults of Glorantha series is released. I'm fine with that by and large. Elmal has always been that quirky piece of a jigsaw puzzle that was supposed to fit into the mosaic of the Storm Pantheon, but had this funny corner that didn't fit quite right. But as I think of the Storm Pantheon, I really like the dichotomy of the Loyal Thane, the dutiful sworn man who sees Honor in keeping home and hearth safe. And let's face it, in a world like Glorantha you NEED guys like him. I'm only just fiddling with ideas in my head right this minute, but once I get something down on paper, I'll share it with the board. I know the cult will keep horse /mounted combat aspect. I know it will have some access to Fire magics, though probably not a great deal. To put point on it, the Storm Pantheon already has access to Lightning and Thunderbolt, so no, they won't be getting access to Sunspear too. There will be some archery aspects to it too, but again, I'm not sure how much.

Well, what do you think the ship's figurehead if for? Or, taking a page out of Jason and the Argonauts, the poppa the overhanging section of the ship's keel at the stern of a trireme. But in order to support the mystical costs of a wyter, there would have to be a HELL of a lot of spirits devoting magic points and POW to the ship. It might be better to consider a fleet standard as the mystical group identity. There'd be enough warm bodies to worship it then.

Well, the rose colored shades [Andy Warhol anyone?] and the Moon Rune pendant.... And @Agentorange it isn't the rose colored glasses, my friend, it's having to separate them from lava lamps, black light velour posters, and corduroy pants zip-zip-zipping down the street. Oh, and white dudes with afros that are starting to morph into mullets... THA HORRAH!

Fair enough. I'd confused the two because of 'epicureanism's' more common definition. As for ataraxia, isn't that more a sense of oneness, spiritual stillness or tranquility based on the freedom from fear?

TRUTH! Not every single bad habit in the Ancient world was mystical. The Greeks and Romans had dinner parties where each diner was provided with a bucket so they could induce their own vomiting and stuff more luxury food into their gullets. There is absolutely nothing 'majickal' about such behavior. They weren't Epicurean philosophers exploring the meaning of sensation. It just gluttony, nothing more. [And I say that as an overweight middle aged guy who eats WAY more ice cream than he should 😁] Edit: I'm not casting dispersion on those of you who have shamanic, pagan or heathen beliefs. It's not my thing, but you do you, OK? But I do tend to draw a line at the majick rock types or those whose 'spiritual explorations' are intended to excuse their behavior or absolve them from responsibility. I'm 'evolved' enough to know bullshit when I hear it, but I have alt-religion friends who can discuss comparative religion with doctors of theology. I respect them a great deal. Hipster/hippie new age gurus, um, not so much.

It's certainly true that Lokarnos cultists move personal goods to sell at a profit, but this is not their focus. Most Lokarnosi are wagon drivers moving taxes-in-kind from one place to another within Sun County. Cult leaders manage the minting of coinage and other tasks to regulate the County's economy. Some few, like Thrandren Clubfoot, have access to 'foreign' markets [he as access to the Garhound and Suntown markets in Prax and Pavis respectively] and are wealthy enough to engage in mercantile trade in luxuries and rarities. But most Lokarni spend their days hauling grain, meat, fruit, and other taxed resources from one end of Sun County to the Sun Dome Temple and from the Temple the end users.