davecake

And I think it is a mistake in the RAW. It always is. But the point is more that Sleep it isn't an 'all powerful' attack. If you have even a spell barrage capable of multiple Sleep spells, but your attackers all have Countermagic up, would won't be able to Sleep them before they physically overwhelm you most likely, as you'll be slowed down by that huge boost. Except vs other shamans. Who are frequently your serious rivals or enemies. So, you know, it is one those 'really great, except when you really need it' things. If your shaman thinks they aren't important, and so you are going to make an enemy of CA, I'm not going to argue. But I think the attitude is hubris and you'd regret it. Its not going to make you any friends with the other Lightbringers either. But I'm sure there are many shamans who share your opinion.

Funnily enough, two things I'd try to make very difficult to obtain IMG. Sleep should be only available normally from the Chalana Arroy cult. Anyone obtaining it must have used extraordinary methods. Regardless of what the rules say, a shaman will not be able to locate a spirit to teach it in any normal place. And a Protection 20 requires learning from a spirit if such power and rarity as to be quite a significant quest in itself. Neither is impossible, but both should be a huge quest. Not that I am bothered too much. Protection can be bypassed multiple ways, and Protection is incompatible with Countermagic, which is a vulnerability. And Sleep is blocked with Countermagic, and still requires POW vs POW. They just change the nature of the game - a shaman with such powers is mighty indeed, but still needs to worry about other mighty shamans and similar opponents. And the greatest powers a shaman has The biggest consequence for a shaman who abuses the Sleep spell may simply be that the Chalana Arroy cult refuses to heal them until they give it up. Thats what I love about Glorantha - even really powerful magic that might be something I would find overpowering in other games becomes a great inspiration for narrative consequences that are more fun than worrying about game balance.

Certainly, it does not get enough love. For sure. A lot of the wilder, and not quite as we see Glorantha canon I think can very validly be looked at as the sort of ways the world as we know it begins to break down once the Hero Wars kick off. But equally a simple but valid reminder that your Glorantha should vary, if you allow your players to be epic. I am ambivalent about the 13th Age trickster - I used to be quite unsure about it, but I've now GMed a Trickster and it works. But I think it is only one way to do the many and varied Tricksters, one of the most varied and diverse cults in Glorantha. Luckily 13th Age has plenty more tricks up its sleeve - you don't have to restrict yourself to the 13th Age In Glorantha classes, you can mix in the base classes and some multi-classing if you want, Rogues and Chaos Mages both can present different sides of the Trickster (a Chaos mage is clearly Disorder and Illusion not Chaos in Glorantha), even sometimes a cleric with the Trickery/Illusion domain.

In Hillfolk (pg 65) there is the suggestion that you could combine using DramaSystem for dramatic scenes with HeroQuest (or another rules light system) for resolving procedural scenes. Has anyone actually done this? I would be interested in more detail, such as how you grafted the Character creation systems together? Any advice, or experiences to recount?

One thing I found was useful - even if you only print out the NPC diagram sheets from the book, let your players scribble on them. This will give you a more colourful, entertaining, and accurate record than if you do it yourself.

Without getting into the big themes, if we take the version of Pavis presented in the HQ Pavis book Pavis: Gateway to Adventure as more or less current, he seems barely a god as it is understood, though a major hero. - his one Rune magic is that of a standard City God, so effectively a major wyter for the city community. This has always been the case across editions. - most of his cults, quite interesting and varied, potential magical powers, are actually unusual EWF era sorcery that the cult retains knowledge of, but requires years of dedicated study to use, and few of them bother. - and they have a bunch of relationships with other cults/traditions, which is where most of the useful magic the cult actually uses comes from. - plus a few remnant artifacts and such from during the life of Pavis. So there isn't much to indicate that Pavis was much more than an EWF sorcerer and heroquester who became worshipped as a wyter. The main difference between him and, say, Hauberk Jon, a more conventional city wyter, is that Pavis was a more successful heroquester, passed on some of his knowledge in the form of unusual sorcery, and seems to have just transitioned to the hero plane somehow without actually dying as a form of limited immortality.

A big theme we've seen in play is that while there is nothing intrinsically wrong with Ancestor Worship/Daka Fal, that it also makes quite a comfortable fit for families that don't want to be too bound by authority or even a particular ethical code. Daka Fal helps you survive, and doesn't judge what you need to do to survive too much. If you want to have a family that is a bit dubious, at least to the point that the impests would trouble them if they were Orlanthi (which can be anywhere from just being very independent and not wanting to give other members of the community too much say over them, to being a bit workshy or a dabbling in dubious trades or even con artists or thieves, through to being effectively crime gangs), ancestor worship works - hey, some of your ancestors probably did the same thing, they aren't going to judge, whatever you have to do for the family. And in such an environment, plain unpleasant selfish people can often thrive, nothing about the tradition being very family oriented means that family can't be dysfunctional, creepy or abusive. It does explain why sometimes you need to be wary of your own ancestors. And maybe not want them to be uncontrolled. In some cases, this can go through to outright evil ancestors - not only can you can be a murderous brigand or such and still be an Ancestor worshipper in good standing as long as your ancestors are fine with it, you can worship other fairly nasty gods as well. Black Fang worshippers probably claim to be ancestor worshippers if anyone gets nosy, and quite likely are. Cannibal Cultists in Prax. The family might have an ongoing, even intergenerational, agreement with some nasty spirits or minor deities that they invoke against their enemies. Or even a bloodline of ogres. And it gets weirder, and potentially quite creepy, if there are families that are both Ancestor Worshippers and also practice sorcery, which is unlikely to happen in Central Genertela or the West, but might be the case in Fonrit or Kralorela.

If a shaman encounters a malign spirit and wants to deal with it, he has a lot of possible tools to deal with it. 'Ambushed by a hostile spirit' usually means 'attacked in spirit combat', so the problem more or less answers itself - he fights it in spirit combat. A shaman is usually very formidable in spirit combat - what might happen is the spirit realises it is losing, and flees into the spirit plane - and then a shaman might have to discorporate in order to chase it down and finally defeat it. But if it attacks him, spirit combat is already initiated, so he doesn't need to be discorporate, and he might just defeat it that way. If there is a problem with a malign spirit attacking someone else (typically a disease spirit or somewhat possessed by some sort of malign curse spirit, either that is killing them or that is dangerous to others (eg see the Bestiary pg 166-167 - spirits with the still death, active possession, shape change or passion powers)), then the shaman might find discorporation, so that they can actively attack the spirit, is useful. A shaman can also challenge spirits with other spirits that they can summon or have bound, either in an enchantment or to their fetch - they might be able to use a spirit of Healing to fight disease, one animal spirit to drive off another, etc The shaman has a few potential spirit magic tools they can use if they have them. If they encounter a malign spirit when travelling physically, they have the Distraction spell that they can use to protect their companions - if a spirit attacks a companion of the shaman, they can force it to attack them instead. Another useful spirit magic spell is Visibility - a shaman (who can see spirits that are still invisible to others in the 'nearby' Spirit Plane using Second Sight, such as ghosts or disease spirits that have not yet manifested) can force it into visible form, so that the shaman or his companions can target it with spells. The Visibility spell is also often used by shamans to allow spirits they have under their control to attack their opponents somehow. The Control spell can also be used to target specific types of spirit, if there is a sort of spirit that the shaman encounters frequently. Some shamans have even more tools, via Rune Magic. The Discorporation rune spell of course, but also Axis Mundi, Attack Soul, Free Ghost, etc. And there are many options for opposing spirits with other spirits that are made easier by some Rune Magic - Summon Spirit of Law, the various cult spirits, etc. Then there is the possibility of shamanic abilities - for example, Cure Disease lets the shaman deal with disease spirits. And even abilities from skills (Spirit Lore might tell you how to attract certain spirits to a place) and various more mundane tools like (even the drug hazia a form of Discorporation). Of course, once a spirit is in spirit combat, there is also the possibility that it can be fought using magical weapons - probably not that useful a tactic for a shaman alone, but potentially very useful for a shamans companions.

[Illuminates being able to progress in both of a pair of Tied Runes] Quite unofficially, I prefer the idea that, by default, most Illuminates have to learn this power for each pair of Tied Runes separately, and individual pathways to Illumination usually only teach this directly for some pairs. And, the mysterious teaching methods of mysticism being what they are—mysticism can't really be taught well, Nysaloran riddles being one of the most reliable and easy and understandable methods of teaching, despite being unreliable, difficult and baffling, mostly it can only be experienced to 'teaching' consists of trying to put students in situations that might lead them to correct experience, like teaching zen—this can be a students individual journey. If, as it seems likely, the various experiences of Illumination (Nysaloran, or draconic, or whatever) are going to be an emerging part of the story and setting as we go on from here, we want it to be full of detail and flavour to differentiate the individual character story - lets make the Illumination paths a bit different in how they are experienced, and make it less of a binary single moment but have most Illuminated characters gradually learn and explore their Illuminated abilities after that first moment of Illumination, while maintaining the spirit of Illumination being a spiritual transformative journey with a rules light approach, and the essential unity of the experience. So, that said, I think most Illuminates likely learn how to progress in both of one linked pair initially, and learn others later. The majority of Illuminates (in at least Central Genertela and all the regions so far detailed for RQG play) will approach Illumination through either Lunar Illumination, or Nysaloran Illumination with a bit of a Solar flavour - and its notable that both the Seven Mothers and Yelm are very unusual in having opposed Runes as a cult, and it is the same pair - Life and Death - so I think it is very common for Illuminates to be able to progress in those Tied Runes. It makes a lot of mythic sense too - Lunars understanding the Goddess's descent into Hell and rebirth, exploring both Yanafal and Jakaleel's connection to Death and Deezola and Teelo Norri's connection to Life, Solar worshippers understanding Yelm's death and rebirth, experiencing Yelm as both BerNeel Arashagern, husband of Dendara, Lord of Life, and Bijiif lord of ashes in the land of the dead. Maybe there are other Tied pairs that they might teach through other linked parts of the religious/magical traditiions - for example, Irripi Ontor probably has inner mysteries that teach the reconciliation of Truth and Illusion. But there are some that are not really easily accessed that way - for example, both the Lunar and Solar religions seem very uncomfortable with, and poorly connected to, Disorder - so that might require your Illuminate seeking to expand their Illuminated powers to seek more obscure and distant sources of mystic knowledge, which seems appropriate and satisfying. Or to experience some sort of profound experience (personal or magical or mystical). And I find it quite satisfying that this idea of Tied Runes becoming unopposed is a simple to understand game mechanic that manages to both have very obvious and overt symbolism that reflects it as a profound mystery, and shows the deeply disconcerting nature of Illumination to most cults/Gloranthans, and clearly shows it as a profound transformation and has obvious game advantages to the 'Gbaji'/Occluded munchkins without being wildly unbalancing, thus being perfect for representing Nysalorism. We know a LOT less about draconic Illumination. The idea of Draconic Illumination generally teaching how to experience the reconciliation of opposites through make Tied Runes unopposed makes perfect sense too - you can see Dragonnewt rebirth, and the liberating nature of utuma, as a synthesis or reconciliation of Life and Death, or the mysterious temporary dream made real nature of Dream Dragons (and draconic reality in general) as a reconciliation of Illusion and Truth. The evolving progressing reconciliation of opposites natural to Dragonnewt progression makes it seem that at least part of their path might be to reconcile all such Tied pairs eventually. But I really like the idea that the most common starting pair of Tied Runes to reconcile for draconic forms of Illumination might be Beast and Man. (It also seems likely that the draconified cults of the EWF era taught had a practice of teaching the contradictions of the cults power runes, so draconic Orlanth no longer was opposed to Stasis but understood Orlanths power draconicly manifest in the Static heavens, draconic Ernalda could reconcile with Death and Disorder, etc. But diving into such specifics of EWF mystic practice is certainly something for a different thread)

That to me is in its favour. It is an honest record of her experiences, and she is learning. Valare is a more honest author than Plentonius (obviously), or the obvious propaganda of The Fortunate Succession.

Yes. Illumination always changes you. But not always for the better, and not always consistently. There are Illuminants who it barely seems to change ('before enlightenment, chop wood carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood carry water'), and there are those it deranges and confuses. And there are those who get that moment of oneness with the universe, but are unwilling to give up their ego and self - and so end up, more or less, treating themself as the centre of the universe.

Yes, once you succeed you are Illuminated permanently. But you may have no powers (though almost everyone gains some secret knowledge). Sometimes. That is a common mechanism - that you have an Illumination skill that can be slowly increase. But sometimes it is automatic. You can decide for your game (or have different people/paths use different mechanisms). Personally, I like to have a mix of some powers that are reliable, some that must be slowly learned. Yes, but the mechanisms vary. No, usually not like a shaman or a sorcerer, but it's not impossible. There are huge amounts of literature about how to gain mystic insight, mostly from cultures in which mystic spiritual wisdom is valued. Some of worlds great literature is about that. Of course, some of that is pop culture cheezy too - and it's a game, you can go that route too if you want. But it shouldn't be formulaic. There is a list, but it is not clear if it is the definitive list. The list from HeroQuest Secret Knowledge. The knowledge that Chaos is not always evil or inimical. Ability to Sense Illumination in Others. Immunity to Attempts by Others to Determine Whether the Illuminate is Chaotic. The Ability to Ignore Cult Restrictions. Includes joining hostile cults, breaking geases, etc. Immunity to Divine Retribution. Includes spirits of retribution. Ability to Illuminate Others. Ability to Combine Incompatible Runes. With 1-5 as common. There are variations and other things noted within all of these. For example, the Secret Knowledge also helps with fear or hatred of True Dragons. Illuminates Cult restrictions may help with 'identity challenges' within heroquests. Another thing to note - it is very likely the Illuminate will sometimes not know if they have a particular power, or how reliably, until they test it! You may never know if you are immune to attempts to detect you as Chaotic if you never gain a Chaos taint. They may not know how reliably they can avoid Spirits of Retribution until they have broken a cult rule. etc. The Gods book may add the ability to overcome your own Runes and Passions as they control your behaviour. And it is absolutely possible that there are others on this list. There may be others associated with Eastern mysticism, or Kralorelan Darudism, that are not commonly known. There may be powers developed by sorcerous mystics like the God Learner Malkioneranists, for example. These powers may be gainable by others, but for example powers to do with sorcery might not even be suspected by non-sorcerers. Or some may just be very obscure. I personally suspect that becoming part of a 'gestalt' being like the Red Emperor or the God-King of the Holy Country without going obviously mad requires Illumination, but it doesn't exactly come up often. There may be abilities that only matter to unusual people or unusual circumstance. Maybe Illumination can help a nymph leave their home, or a dwarf construct become real? It is also possible that there are forms of magic that are not at all part of Illumination, but greatly benefit from Illumination, such that they are sometimes practiced together (the practice of 'Austerities', probably including Gifts and Geases, might be an example). And some forms of magic that, while they are an entirely separate form of magical study, can only only be practiced by the Illuminated - the Red Moon Lunar magic from RQ3 was an example. And there are almost certainly deeper implications of Illumination that are apparent only to Illuminated heroquesters - the study of the deep myths of the Red Goddess hints at some of them. Surely the magical landscape of the surface of the Red Moon is very different to Illuminates, but how? Exploring the landscape of dreams the same maybe? But this is stuff that goes beyond the rules we currently have, and probably requires a lot of thoughtful study and thought to make it seem right to you.

Absolutely. And worth remembering that the EWF form of draconic Illumination was ultimately found deeply flawed too. Also, that the Arkati form is a variant of the Nysaloran, despite their opposition. As information about Illumination is notoriously subjective and hard to convey, some schools might be poor at passing on particular elements of correct practice, but that does not mean that correct practice is impossible, or that it is not profoundly meaningful and deep.

Yes! And every one should be an important thing, a great event, often a shamanic heroquest. If a PC wants to interact with a Great Entity, it should be a big thing! Which doesn't mean you only get abilities from friendly powers. Sometimes confronting the other is just what you need to get a power. Sometimes a terrifying experience, like being ripped apart and having to reassemble yourself, or losing a body part or organ but making a replacement.

I agree with what Peter has said. The same rules, but not every Illuminate leans the same powers, or learns them as reliably. I think it would be valuable to distinguish different schools of Illumination in terms of what powers they teach, and how reliably they can learn to invoke those powers, but with the caveat that individuals differ, and can learn. Also, I don't that is a binary - there are multiple schools of Illumination within Peloria, acknowledged as different paths to the same destination, and the same was true of the draconic paths within the EWF. Plus many teach other skills (particularly, many teach meditation but some also teach magic they think the Illuminate might value). Only the Nysalor Riddle tradition I think is (more or less) unique to Nysaloran Illumination. Some might teach limited versions of some abilities - for example, one potential power is the ability to use opposed runes simultaneously. I don't think many Illuminates can reconcile all opposing Power runes. But the Seven Mothers cult has the Life and Death runes - reconciling those two is common. But maybe the Lunar religion has trouble reconciling Stasis and Movement - she is always turning, never still - or Harmony and Disorder - their religion has little to do with Disorder. Draconic Illumination is probably less concerned with avoiding spirits of retribution, with concealing Chaos, etc, but more concerned with mastering passions, with reconciling the opposites within oneself. But that doesn't mean that all abilities are not available potentially. And in particular, teaching Illumination is rare. Many Illumination paths have no direct way of teaching! Or have only indirect and clumsy ones. Nysaloran Illumination is, I think, really unique in its magical teaching methods. Even other Lunar paths aren't the same - the Lunar Sevening rites use more drastic methods, such as madness invoking magics. Draconic methods, at least in the early days of the EWF, used to resort to surgical methods as part of their process! There are probably some paths that do not know how to teach Illumination other than by dangerous heroquests to the Green Age or similar. Ultimately, mystic knowledge like Illumination can only be experienced. So - make each individual path to Illumination and beyond different, not just between the two but at a much more individual level. Don't use different rules, but different subsets of what is possible within the powers available. Don't make it a rigid taxonomy of paths, just some loose collections of what groups know, or what groups can teach which may not be the same. Make each journey individual. Try to make it meaningful for your game, to the extent you are happy with it.

If you want a more rulesy answer that doesn't assume they share the same ceremony, then assume that if you attend the High Holy Day of one you get the full benefit, but the benefits of attending associate worship (ie 1d6 rune points renewed on a successful Worship) of the other. This can happen even if you do assume you can combine both full ceremonies in the one day, as often a clan does not have a holy place to a minor deity like Yinkin or any worshippers. Characters in minor cults either might be assumed to be from a clan that particularly likes that cult, or to travel to a nearby clan or holy place, and sometimes characters in two cults might have to choose, if they do not have access to a Great Temple.

MOB has written quite a bit about the future of Pavis/Sun County/Prax, and there has been some discussion about various Praxian NPCs in Second Battle of Moonbroth etc discussion lately. Eg, I think someone has Sitszag Redmoon skull as a drinking cup. A LOT of the Lunar provincial hierarchy, plus quisllng kings and other notables (including the Luminous Stallion King of the Grazers) died during the Dragonrise obviously - a thread on who dies here - also mentions that several Sartar Kings and Queens canonically die at the Battle of Queens in 1626.

The description in HeroQuest Glorantha is pretty much valid for RuneQuest as well, including most of the rules implications. Everything Joerg says applies. I RQG think rules will be in the Gods book, and will be pretty unsurprising if you have read both Cults of Terror and HQG. There is a description from the Lunar PoV in the Glorantha Sourcebook, pgs 149-150. In the modern era, it is mostly known as a core part of the Lunar Philosophy that the Lunars revived from a Chaos friendly Empire from a thousand years ago, widely practiced by the Lunar elite. But only a few people understand that the draconic consciousness of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends, much more associated with dragons than Chaos, is more or less the same thing - and Argrath appears to be enthusiastically reviving that.

The description in HeroQuest Glorantha is pretty much valid for RuneQuest as well, including most of the rules implications. Everything Joerg says applies. There is a description from the Lunar POW in the Glorantha Sourcebook, pgs 149-150. In the modern era, it is mostly known as a core part of the Lunar Philosophy that the Lunars revived from a Chaos friendly Empire from a thousand years ago, widely practiced by the Lunar elite. But only a few people understand that the draconic consciousness of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends, much more associated with dragons than Chaos, is more or less the same thing - and Argrath appears to be enthusiastically reviving that.

And just noting that this ability of Allied spirits to share the senses of their ally and cast spells that way is a reason why Allied spirits are better than bound spirits. You can order a bound spirit to cast spells, but if it is in an object it has no senses to allow it to do so.

The single biggest thing for long term survival is to assume that, no matter what, at some point everyone might take a potentially lethal wound, and Heal Wound or Heal 6 or better will be necessary - from them, an allied spirit, an ally. A good party is a cautious party that prioritises getting every one out. My long term surviving PCs all joke about how many times they have a limb severed or maimed. That, and being prepared to surrender or negotiate rather than fighting to the bitter end, and sensibly avoiding combat when you can.

Allied spirits can cast spells, and use the senses of their ally to do so. This is incredibly useful in a fight - if housed in an object they can either cast spells on their ally, or on their opponent, usually, even if their ally is engaged in melee combat. If housed in an animal they can target spells independently (for example, target spells on those sneaking up on their ally, or scout ahead). Either way, this is super useful in multiple ways. As for personalities, mostly they are devoted followers of their god with limited knowledge of the mortal world. But while they should always be an ally of the PC when it counts, their personality and disposition is an opportunity for roleplaying and fun.

A follow up the question about Free INT - why is Free INT reduced by knowing sorcery spells? Why does knowing more sorcery make you worse at casting sorcery? Also, do you envisage future rules or supplements will make it easier for dedicated sorcerers from sorcerous cultures to advance their spell knowledge faster than the rules in the rules book would? For example, are they able to receive training easily, or will the Book rules you unveiled a few months ago see significant use, are their special sect techniques, etc?

I agree that binding a spirit of the dead prevents Resurrection and such things. Attempts to Resurrect will probably reveal that the spirit is not available, though. Resourceful opponents should be able to work out what is going on. This has lots of great potential for play (you want to Resurrect someone important, but an enemy shaman has bound them and you have a very short time line to find them!). I suspect it is known to people who care a lot about making someone dead, such as assassins, and keeping the spirit bound at least long enough to be unresurrectable is something that is often attempted. Black Fang is an assassin cult with shamans. You probably also find Jakaleel witches in Lunar Dart Competitions. In my game its been a thing the Lunar shamans of the Red School of Masks would do to enemies of the Empire. I think enslaving a spirit this way isn't necessarily regarded as awful as the Bloody Tusk or Thanatar. In some cults doing so voluntarily may even be an accepted practice the way a voluntary ghost binding is for Humakt. In some cults spirits of the dead voluntarily stay behind to be cult spirits/allied spirits etc (including Thanatar, for that matter). But doing it to the spirit of an enemy involuntarily is at least regarded like taking a thrall (only magic) at best, and likely something that is going to earn you the vicious enmity of the spirits family and allies.

Can you tell us any more about Joy of the Heart? Is it more like a Passion, or more like a limited version of Illumination, or something totally else? More or less, it is a purely subjective personal thing, or something with some objective magical benefit? Can you say an non-Gloranthan concept that you think it resembles? Eg, would you compare it to the Augoeides, Atman, Holy Guardian Angel, Daemon, Higher Self or similar ideas?