davecake

Yes. It makes perfect sense that ducks are a type of keet, and in the East Isles there are duck keets that are more or less indistinguishable physically from the ducks of Dragon Pass, and the God Learners just assumed they were connected based on that and, it seems, not much else. Only that’s not how the ducks, or anyone else in Dragon Pass, remembers it, and they seem culturally and magically distinct from duck keets entirely, so 🤷‍♂️ (I personally go with the idea that they originated from duck keet eggs that arrived in Dragon Pass without live ancestors to teach them much of their own culture so they just adopted the local one, sometime during the Inhuman occupation probably, but that is wild speculation that doesn’t agree with the ducks own stated opinions, and just raises many more questions than it answers. Luckily the weirdo duck keet monk PC that arrived in Dragon Pass as their one unique thing in my 13th Age in Glorantha playtest never got around to asking difficult questions, I just liked being a kung fu feathered fury)

We literally know how they did it - they summoned a child of Tanian, then forced him to summon his father so he manifested in the physical world (until then, Tanian had probably never manifested outside the celestial world. So all you need is thorough knowledge of obscure celestial magic to know of a son of Tanian (probably not called that at all) who could be contacted (and so probably had manifested in the world before, maybe had at least a spirit cult), know enough sorcerous techniques with at least some early God Learner techniques to summon such a god as if they were simply a spirit or demon, enough power to summon and control not just them, but the minor god Tanian, presumable by enormous massed sorcerous ritual, and you are off to the races. So that’s the plan, from there it is just a simple matter of some deep research, the sorcerous resources of probably the equivalent of at least a small nation, and a lot of project management! Oh and maybe people learning what you are up to, and trying to stop you (for any number of reasons).

You won’t resolve this argument by arguing about Glorantha, or fiction, or gaming alone. Think about things like Winston Churchill’s role in the Bengal famine, or if the bombing of Nagasaki was necessary, or the fire bombing of Dresden - not even the historical debate about whether these things are necessary or true, just any number of other horrifying decisions made by men usually considered heroic leaders by those on their side of conflict despite (or even because of) their willingness to sacrifice many lives. Did they feel remorse for lives that caused the deaths of so many? They might feel sorrow, but that’s not remorse or regret - if they felt they had made the correct decision at the time, then presumably they would do the same again. Does that mean they are sociopaths? The question of clinical sociopathy seems almost irrelevant - in some many cases it can be argued that psychological diagnoses only apply if they are problematic to the person or to society. Investigations into sociopathy seem to show that there are many people who might be regarded as ‘high functioning sociopaths’ in the community, often very smart, and while they are often difficult to terrible to be close to, they can do a lot of good and generally be quite valuable members of society. Sometimes their lack of empathy even helps them - surgeons, for example, find a sense of empathy to the death and suffering of individuals can be a real problem that distracts and causes doubt, they have to learn to treat it as a more abstract problem - and sociopaths don’t have to learn. But this is also personal morality, crossing over into spirituality. Does a person who makes the right decisions and does unquestionably good things, but who does it for the wrong reasons, or who does it out of an abstract idea of correct behaviour without truly being able to love or care for others at an emotional level, are they a good person? These are questions it is truly impossible for there to be an objectively correct answer to. Once you get past ethics (and most of the relevant effects of Illumination seem to be that it frees the Illuminant from externally imposed ethics and other restrictions), morality is complex and subjective. And there are is enormous amount written about it, much of it contradictory, especially about morality from a mystic viewpoint. I think there is no right answer to questions like ‘was Argrath/Arkat/Nysalor/Jar-Eel a good person/monster?’ - there being no single right answer is the point!

Just quoting this because that is such a great line. Technically Argrath seems to fall into draconic mysticism not nihilism, but sure seems to have decided we are better off without the Gods. Its probably much the same as far as old Friedrich was concerned, who was really concerned more with God as moral arbiter rather than metaphysics. There is some beautiful deep themic stuff going on in the way Argrath dismembers the Lunar Empire from the outside, but by turning the Orlanthi into something very like it (kind of half the Shadow of the Empire, half the return of the EWF), Jar-Eel guts the Lunar Empire from the inside trying to turn it into what it should have been. Argrath effectively fights the Red Emperor by becoming the Storm Emperor. Jar-Eel fights the Red Emperor by slaying him and replacing him (and some the Egi) and purifying the corrupt head of the Empire. Both, ultimately, find it is not enough.

If a character is a hero type, and aren’t straight out invoking Chaos, do the Uroxi have a reason to get involved? If someone says they are a holy hero on a sacred mission to unite the tribes of Northern Sartar against the Lunars and their Chaotic ways, and that is why they have joined Orlanth, Yelmalio and Argan Argar, are the Uroxi going to help them or attack them at that point, and will people listen to them? And even if they later add 7 Mothers to the mix (there will be a few local converts to the religion but who reject the Empire around at later dates, especially once the Tarsh Civil War kicks off), it still seems like a message of unity with the Uroxi appearing as the intolerant fanatics.

I think it is too easy to diagnose individuals like Argrath (or for comparison, a terrestrial leader like Winston Churchill or even Hitler) as a sociopath etc. They are willing to do monstrous and vicious acts, and certainly there will be a degree of cynicism in how they act to manipulate people, especially people who they feel do not really understand what is at stake and what needs to be done to achieve it. But the goal is one far bigger than their personal desire, may even seem like a great sacrifice from their point of view ('I could have just stayed in my mansion with my harem, you know') and when you start to look from an appropriately big enough perspective (ie think that your acts are determining the entire future for centuries for entire continents) arguments about morality can be made that go beyond selfishness. Lack of empathy for individuals is sometimes argued to be the right attitude - compassion in the big picture is desirable, but an argument can be made that a great leader should be willing to sacrifice many lives without remorse if that sacrifice is necessary to win. Even traits like narcissism or megalomania have to be thought about differently in people that generally important to the lives of millions. What matters about Argrath is not so much whether he is nice to his household staff, has healthy relationships wth his family, etc as how he acts as a leader, whether he is able to achieve, and what those goals are. A more interesting way to think about figures like Argrath, Arkat etc, IMO, is rather than using a model of modern personality disorders etc, is to look at the idea of the Nietszchean ubermensch.

I think the idea that powergaming is always the opposite of roleplaying is not really in the spirit of Glorantha. The history of Glorantha is full of people who decided to powergame ( in the sense of finding tactics that involve interesting exploits and innovations within the known rules of the world) for perfectly understandable motivations that are very much in character and provide wild roleplaying story opportunities. Usually there area lot of other people who are jerks for doing so, but thats just even more conflicts to provide great roleplaying opportunities. If your opportunistic Orlanthi wants to use Illumination to powergame like a mofo Lokomoko Lokomayadon, thats fine within the rules, just remember how people felt about him! Of course Illumination allows people to do munchkin things. Thats a feature, not a bug, in the rules - it is supposed to be tempting, and its an invitation for other people in your game to recognise what is happening and react appropriately.

Yes, pretty much the main point of the whole thread. A rule I've been experimenting with is that you only get to use your 'reduction' %age once with each weapon. So if you have a sword skill of 120%, you get to either attack with sword at 120%, and parry with sword at 100%, or vice versa, but not both. Advanced users can even split the amount over 100% between two skills (or even choose to not reduce the parry by the full amount because they are more interested in keeping their special chance up, I guess). This gives some reason to hang on to a shield if your (current) shield skill is over 100%, in turn giving Earth Shield/Great Parry to be used, at least by people who have bumped their attack skill up very high without using Trance or Berserk type spells (for example Morale, huge Bladesharps, big augment/inspiration rolls) (of course, some Babeester Gor cultists will decide that giving up the shield for a second axe and going Berserk is the way to go, they always have had the advantage of choosing between Berserker mode or axe and shield mode, and being close to the best at both. ZZ has the advantage of being good at Berserker mode, and combining it with skirmishing and their ability to neutralise enemy healing)

That isn't my experience so much. But the people that head into the more ambiguous grey areas are more fun IMO anyway. The fun bits are even when they do terrible things that they feel are morally justified. "Honestly, I only learnt how to create Thanatar heads when ordered to by my commanders in the Lunar College of Magic so that I could steal the secret knowledge of Argrath's dragon magicians so I could save the Empire and save the world" or even better "Honestly, I only learnt how to create Thanatar heads when ordered to by my commanders in the Lunar College of Magic Sartar Magical Union so that I could steal the secret knowledge of Lunar chaos magicians Argrath's dragon magicians so I could destroy save the Empire and save the world"

People who have completely solipsistically abandoned mores and ethics tend to flame out as some form of monster. Arkat, Argrath, etc they retain a moral code of sorts, one that is even pretty consistent, and at every stage it is consistent with at least the ethical code of some group of followers (if not all their past followers). But they have the ability to find new supporters, rally people to their cause. They change the world, destroy Empires, change the ethics and mores of their new Empires to suit their new moral code.

Not wanting to pick on Shiningbrow particularly, but so many times when people start with ' If I Recall Correctly', they did not, in fact, recall correctly. 😛😛 Great Parry does not improve parry/shield skill at all. It makes shield hit points be effectively infinite though - in fact, its also exactly the same spell as the RQG Earth Shield, it is more or less just renamed, so no need to bring it back they already have it. They did have a spell that was +10% per MP added, but that was Axe Trance, not a defensive spell, and they still have that too.

The temptation is very real. Just not everyone gives into it. Most people, when given the opportunity to 'power game', do not. Normal people don't try to become crime lords, live complex second lives of deception, commit acts of vicious cruelty for personal pleasure, and so on, regardless of the opportunity. Some do. But a minority. There is a good argument to be made that the bigger danger of Illumination isn't people who when they become Illuminated lose all morality and empathy and become some form of terrible monster without any form or morality. Or even the people who lose all connection to normal social expectations and conventional ideas of reality, and become more or less crazy. The real danger could be those who remain fully connected to the real world implications of Illumination, have an ethical system that they maintain, are strongly motivated towards some seemingly moral and reasonable goal (though it might be a spiritual one) - and decide that using the abilities provided by Illumination are valid, useful, practical and ethical steps towards their major goals. Arkat, Nysalor, The Red Goddess, Argrath, probably even Sheng, etc are all this type of person in their own world view.

And they are the same kind, just with people who made different choices. Lunars may even think you can be both. Or neither. Plenty of Illuminates can value for Illumination for its own sake, and think that becoming Chaotic or joining multiple weird cults or whatever are terrible life choices.

The God Learners started as sorcerers. Some of them remained sorcerers. But the thing that made them God Learners instead of just powerful sorcerers was learning about other worlds and other forms of magic, and using that knowledge (and their impressive sorcery) to alter and invade and loot other otherworlds. Not all the God Learners used other forms of magic directly (some just heroquested into other cultures myths used sorcerous magic to pillage them, summoned spirits as if they were demons) but a lot used other magic directly (initiated to Gods, became Illuminated). Not all God Learners were the same - it was a huge empire that by the end was quite intellectually, religiously and magically diverse even within itself. Plenty of them were probably a bit like Illuminated Lhankor Mhy philosopher sorcerer and similar.

I think most of what people have said about Illumination here is pretty off the mark. Either people are extrapolating what Illumination is like from game effects, and/or making assumptions about Illumination is like from the minority that abuse its abilities. The 'Dark Side' of Illumination is a minority followed by a few. Illumination gives you the choice to be a monster or not. For most, this means it gives the choice back, after you gave it away to the gods when you joined a cult. Most Gloranthans will be a monster or not based on their choice of deity - a choice they may have made as an ignorant youth, probably not really understanding all the implications, probably mostly based on social pressure, often more or less just made through historical circumstance (and gender). Zorak Zorani, for example, are clearly monsters by not only human standards, but by their own standards - they like being the monster. Sure, many cult rules are seemingly designed to enforce 'good' (or at least, socially convenient) behaviour, but most aren't designed to offer much choice about it. Its probably no coincidence that its greatest success has been in Peloria - most people in Peloria (Lodril or Earth worshippers or river folk etc, anyone but an elite group really) are told by the rules of their mythology that they will never have or deserve real power and control over their own destiny, they will always be spiritually impure, but must stick to a rigid set of rules anyway, and never move beyond their station. Illumination must seem incredibly liberating to all of those people - they might never mess with Chaos or enemy gods, just know that they have value and spiritual worth, that they don't have to stick to the rigid rules of their religion, that they can aspire to something great. To most Gloranthans, the spiritual liberation offered by Illumination is very very real (if not universally valued). Its hard even to consider what this is like to a modern person like us, who has never grown up with that mindset. Illumination isn't the same for everyone (there are differences between different paths of Illumination and different peoples experience. Illumination can also allow people to understand their inner self, learn about themselves and be less controlled by their human limitations - their biases, their emotions, their ego, their desires - but also their empathy, their conscience, etc. And some people are so used to relying on their cultural firm foundation to their worldview that when it is wrenched away, they seem insane. Some become serene zen monks, some become deranged dealers with horror and madness - and if you think those two things are clearly opposites, you should investigate things like vajrayana (Tibbettan buddhist tradition). Yep. Most Gloranthans pursue mysticism and Illumination for quite similar reasons to the reasons why terrestrial people pursue mysticism. Most Gloranthans aren't in a position to really increase their personal power by joining multiple cults, including dangerous enemy ones, and it is not a big motivator. But freedom from living their whole life in fear of Chaos, freedom from living their life constrained by the own mortal weakness, freedom from the arbitrary rules of the gods - thats valuable. Greg was very serious about basing Gloranthan mysticism on real world mystic traditions, which he thought were of real spiritual value. He told me (long ago) to understand mysticism I should read the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, for example. I know Jeff has been reading about Vajrayana and explicitly linking it to understanding Nysalor. Greg was also serious about the Nysalor/Arkat story being a story about the moral problems arising from mystic experience - according to old stories from the time, the idea of the Dark side of Nysalor came significantly from his experiences with people in his social circle (and many other people in the Berkeley science-fiction and gaming circles, including other people involved with early RuneQuest/Glorantha) such as Walter Breen (google him if you aren't familiar), who he knew were interested in mysticism, and he thought were morally corrupt. But that does not mean Greg thought all pursuers of mysticism were corrupt.

If you want to believe that the Windstop and the Long Winter was the moral and practical equivalent of Shengs policies to deliberately cause famine across Peloria, I probably won't convince you otherwise. But the Lunars did not fully understand the Long Winter would result, and while they cynically took advantage of it, they encouraged people to avoid its worst effects through conversion to the Lunar way and Lunar friendly gods, and allowed trade etc to relieve the worst. They wanted to destroy Orlanth - but their goal was subjugation of Sartar, not the destruction of the Sartarite people. Sheng's troops effectively did the same deliberately, creating a vast famine - and then if any of the Pelorian people tried to win some relief by abasing themselves before his Pentans, mostly they laughed at them, raped and/or murdered them. And then did it again the next year, and the next. The Lunars under Tatius are the Lunars at their cruellest. And Sheng's troops are still worse. A good comparison is that Parg Ilisi is a notorious vicious Lunar general who acted with cruelty and severity - and to the modern Lunars he is a historical figure of shame on the whole Lunar way, repudiated by the Emperor and a story of sorrow and regret. But I think they think Sheng's people were worse than him - and probably correctly.

I don't! A successful Disruption very seldom takes an enemy out of the fight, even temporarily, while Demoralise or Befuddle often do (and you still get that POW gain tick). Though Disruption is still handy. A character from a cult with no powerful attack magic but access to common magic can use Disruption and Multispell, and its good for sniping at your enemies bound/allied spirits. Orlanthi and Humakti characters usually find it very easy to get Demoralise - Lunars usually find it very easy to get Befuddle.

Consider that not every Illumination school teaches all the Illumination abilities and that you can learn more through study, and that the abilities may start out unreliable and gradually become reliable, and that the way Illluminate abilities work may differ (Nysalor riddles is not the only way of teaching, for example). And consider that abilities like Meditation or Mystic Cult Lore are going to be useful. And yet hat some mystic cults will teach abilities that either are more useful after Illumination, or can only be thought to the Illuminated. I think there is room in that for a more gradualist approach for sure - it’s just that much of it happens after Illumination, to unlock the full potential of the path. Illumination is a major dramatic step on the way, but it doesn’t mean there isn’t further travel. (personally, I’d quite like the HQG concept of Lunar phases back in RQG too, and at least some ideas of what draconic magic can be learnt, and some development of ‘austerities’ as a form of magic that isn’t mystic per se, but often used by mystics - forms of magic that are used by mystics, as we progress into the Hero Wars and the deep contest between Argraths dragon mystics and the Lunar elite really heats up and gets transgressive and weird) Of course, mysticism is also often far more individualist in how people progress. And if your individual characters path includes Chaos and exploitation and falling to the dark side, well, that’s a potentially interesting story too.

There is absolutely no reason why your warriors can’t cast ‘Befuddle and whatnot’, almost every warrior cult grants such spells, Demoralise for example, cult spell for Orlanth and Humakt.

Butchery and Peaceful Cut are the same skill, and in practice there probably isn’t a good case for making taking the pelts for fur or hides for leather a different, separate, skill - it’s just another body part extracted from the carcass. But yeah, you need to tan hide before it becomes leather, and tanning if not done by modern industrial methods is often really quite disgusting, pre-modern methods often involve a lot of feces (dog or bird), urine, brains, some putrefaction, etc. I’ve been to a tannery using pre-industrial methods, it’s pretty nasty. Historically tanneries were kept away from other industries and social areas, typically the edge of town or outside it. I think it is a separate trade from either hunting or leather craft, and usually done by specialists, though including it within leather craft skill for game simplification seems reasonable. Hunters might know some methods, but not really how to do it efficiently enough for a trade - their methods would still be a pretty gross though. I agree on both Devise, and the cults being weak, even weirdly so - Odayla, for example, seems deliberately to have had a lot of abilities removed since the HQ version. There is also a lot of confusing design that doesn’t seem to make sense, like linking them to Daka Fal/ when they are one of the few cults that almost always has a poor Man Rune, or Foundchild having magic that mostly uses the Beast rune, but not officially having that Rune.

I'm sort of come to terms with Sword Trance, using the corrected version of the spell as an actual trance not just a skill boost without disadvantage, and I also house rule that I limit it to doubling skill, which still makes it more than powerful enough (and means when two Humakti decide to take on another one, the ultimate winner is still mostly about who has the most skill, not who has the most magic points on tap). I then become much more relaxed about any balance issues - it becomes a sort of calmer alternative to Berserker, with a difference bunch of advantages and disadvantages. And I note that Humakt has had Berserk taken away (they had it in RQ3, though it was often controversial, as it didn't seem 'honourable' to some), so it seems then a nice balanced and appropriate change to the cult! And Babeester Gor keeps both Axe Trance and Berserker, which is appropriate, and cements her reputation as one of the toughest and most versatile combat cults in the game (Humakt gets the edge on toughness, but Babeester Gor definitely gets the edge on versatility). But I still have an issue to consider, one which is swinging me back towards a bit unbalanced again. And Sword Trance was the trigger for it, but its a wider issue beyond Humakt and Sword Trance - also applies to Humakt with Morale, Berserkers, Fanaticism even, high powered Bladesharp, Babeester Gor, etc. There are many spells that boost weapon skill or attack, a few hugely, and very few that boost shield skill (you can get a boost from a rune or passion, but only a small one). So when you hit the point of Sword of Humakt or other rune master, it is going to be quite common that either Sword (or Axe for BGs) might be boosted to 200% or more, and weapon skill (or weapon attack %age, boosted by Bladesharp etc above skill), and shield skill is unboosted. So it will often be the case that a Sword of Humakt can't shield parry their own sword attack. Their effective sword skill might be over 200-300%, when their shield skills still stuck at just 100%, reducing their effective shield parry to 5%, barely worth the bother. At first glance, this would seem to reduce most Humakti duels to strike rank contests etc But I took a closer look, including all the clarification/correction threads, and my reading of the rules is that, though it is vague suggestion that of one weapon to attack and one to parry in the dual wield rules, that actually you can attack and parry with any prepared weapon - you just can't attack more than one with the same weapon (and it is explicit that you can't attack and parry with a shield in the same round, but I saw nothing saying you can't attack and parry with a 1H weapon in the same round. Obviously you can with a 2H weapon using one would be suicidal.) I was surprised by this, but once I thought about it seems fine - it allows for 'fencing' type combats which seems more realistic, and clearly attacks and parries are no longer intended to be equivalent actions - it is difficult to attack more than once with a single weapon, but easy to parry multiple times. I think I only made this assumption because of years of playing the previous versions, which are different in multiple ways. So I figure with Humakti duels, usually if one uses Sword Trance so will the other, and they may fence with their swords, their shields hanging uselessly. There are multiple consequences at high levels of play, though, and I'm still thinking about them. - the two cults with access to weapon Trance spells, Humakt and Babeester Gor, seem to be the only cults who are able to get a parry ability to super high levels, and so are uniquely able to continue to fight in melee against a person with a super high attack without just relying on armour points. This applies not just between themselves (you basically need Sword or Axe Trance to fight someone in Sword or Axe Trance), but others - a Trance spell lets you parry a Berserker, for example. Even if you cap the level of these spells to the equivalent of Berserker, they are still uniquely powerful. I'm unsure if this is intended. - parrying (or dodging) as a tactic gradually become less and less useful and reliable, especially in high level play - it is worthless for parrying super high skill for most, but even at less extreme levels even Bladesharp and Fanaticism means a skilled fighter with equal sword and shield skill has much less options to enhance their shield skill, and their shield parry (or any parry, or dodge) will often be well below 100% chance. In general I mostly like this change, but its notable that RQG really does have a systemic advantage to the attacker the more magic is used. Its an intrinsically bloodier game than previous edition. - Humakt also has the unique advantage of having access to the Parry spirit magic spell, so are the only cult in the game that can increase their parry ability to counteract the common offensive buffs of Bladesharp, Bludgeon et all. I don't think this is a huge advantage, but its notable that this is SO rare. I haven't noticed anything much that boosts Dodge. Shimmer becomes an interesting option at high levels - sometimes it makes very little, but sometimes a lot. - for Humakti and Babeester Gor, shields in particular gradually become less and less useful - even for those Humakti who have Parry, or those Babeester Gor cultists who have Earth Shield, their only realistic hope of countering a super high skill attacker (for Humakti, could be either a Humakti duel or Zorak Zoran Berserker - relatively common opponents for them) is to parry with their weapon. So even the cult with the best shield enhancing magic in the game will eventually find that it becomes an unreliable option often. Shields still have their uses - passive use against missiles, parrying thrown weapons (in warfare, everyone love a javelin as they close), and for average soldiers, shield walls and phalanx tactics, but they are definitely less important than they used to be.

Some ideas for better Illusory spells: - replace Illusory Motion with a requirement that if you want it to move independently (or least move beyond repeating an obvious sequence?) it becomes an active spell requiring concentration. If you want to use it as an attack spell, sure, but thats what you use your actions for. Basically, make it work like the sorcery illusion spells. - put limits on fine control of the illusion - the Dex x3%/Dex x1% if invisible of the sorcery spells is fine, basic but simple and servicable. It might be OK to offer an alternative option for skilled sorcerers - like Dex x3% or some skill, whichever is higher? A special magic skill maybe? - make it explicit that the spell can't create effects like Acid (i tend to think given how crazily better Acid is that terrestrial acid that its actually a low level magic effect, either alchemical or otherwise), fire damage, other elemental damage - or just rig it so it is always worse than just casting the appropriate elemental spell, which the fine control to attack requirement probably mostly manages. - don't make failing to add a sense as being like getting Invisibility for free, make it a disadvantage. Make an Illusory Substance without an Illusory Sight spell on it visible but in not a useful way - eg as a visible distortion or glow. - make it explicit (both for sorcery and Rune magic) that you need skills to make convincing Illusions, and that a good illusionist has appropriate skills. It then becomes a bit of a specialist thing with many role playing opportunities - make the skills Act and Art useful to an illusionst, make appropriate Lore skills to make a convincing Illusion relevant, etc. - and changes the focus to all the interesting deceptive uses of Illusion spells. - make the spells 1 Rune Point spells that you stack with magic points (like Sword Trance) - that still might be a bit high cost for Illusory Substance, but seems roughly workable for the others? It still makes Illusion spells an unusually expensive form of magic in terms of resources, but doable. Possibly even just a single Cast Illusion spell (lets call it 2 points) that you can stack with lots of points that covers all the different current Illusory <sense> spells, you pay the cost for more sense in magic points not Rune points? OK, thats off the top of my head. Any terrible flaws in that?

I think rules that make it clear that abuse of the Substance spell to turn it into a 'damage blast' are not supposed to be enabled would be easy to add, but kind of miss the point. It would be easy to make it clear that it requires to hit rolls for any offensive use, that damage must be appropriate (so yeah, you want to make an Illusory Substance greatsword and hit someone with it? sure but... ) and so on. And I think the whole 'using Substance as a weapon is so dangerous we need to limit all general illusion magic' argument is not just a bad argument, but starts from a false premise. But I also think that clearly, if you took away Substance, all other general purpose Illusion magic is still just far too weak for what they do. Even compared to other Illusion magic - Become <other shape> is pretty balanced for 3 points, but a 3 point Illusory Smell just to make a bad smell seems crazy! If the was a 1pt Trickster spirit magic spell that create a bad smell no one would think it was over powered! And when compared to, say, Heal Body or Its the whole basic approach - splitting spells into multiple senses for a start makes everything effectively cost 5 times as much, and then they are heaped with other disadvantages on top of that, none of which ever gets really playtested because they are so underpowered they barely get used.

There are a few spells that appear too weak until you have a bit of an insight. Xiola Umbars Healing Trance spell, for example - it appears much weaker than other Rune magic healing that happens instantly, while Healing Trance still takes days to weeks - but once you think about the Zorak Zoran Seal Wound spell (likely to be quite common in the same communities) and how all those instant rune magic spells do nothing, and Healing Trance seems quite handy to have around.

There are a lot of spells in RuneQuest that are not immediately useful for everyone, but are definitely useful for someone - and I think Glue is one of those. For certain users, its pretty handy, and as a 1-2 pt spell I think gives reasonable utility for the resources. Its a great spell for thief types, for example. Handy for tricksters. You can do things like Glue weapons into their scabbards before confronting the guards (or their boots to the floor if they are resting unaware), Glue doors shut to foil pursuit. Steal an item by dangling a rope down, then Glueing it to the rope, or use the same technique to retrieve something from a hard to get place. Its a handy utility spell, that will be great for some characters, and not useful for others. In this thread I'm really not trying to single out spells that are not obviously useful, and especially not things that aren't useful at all in a pragmatic way but represent cultural truth (things like Food Song or Peaceful Cut are obvious - they are minor spells whose only reason to exist is social/religious, basically a minor cultural difference). I'm thinking of things that are so poor that they break the game a bit - they make the things they are supposed to enable, and so create a bit of whole either in the game generally, or a gap in the representation of Glorantha.