davecake

As the mythic justification for allowing Elmal to use Firearrow and Fireblade would be that Orlanth took his weapons and armour in a duel, but granted them back in later friendship, it may be that Elmal can regain their use only by ritually swearing friendship to Orlanth and then being taught it from an Orlanth temple (Orlanth doesn't emphasise the weapons of other elements, but takes great pride in having the ability to access and use them at need). Which would make it relatively available, but make for interesting roleplaying (and, if necessary, restrict it to only some Elmali). It suits my needs for maintaining continuity, my main Elmal PC is a weaponthane of the Red Cow so has sworn loyalty to an Orlanthi chief (originally from the Dolutha, joined the Red Cow by marriage, choosing to join his wifes clan, rather than her join his as usual, as a way to honorably way to leave the Dolutha, as he did not get on with Ivar Quickstep). Could be a nice compromise between Jeffs vision for Elmal and my desire for backwards compatibility.

Yelmalio really needs to be an established large group to be effective and survive. Their big thing is fighting in a well trained professional collective. As a minority living among Orlanthi, Yelmalio doesn't work very well (and Elmal does). Sure, but active war is rare. Elmal can go on raids like anyone else. Most of the time, their role is that of boundary rider and rapid response probably, as mounted specialists. Elmal warriors aren't just another kind of warrior - they probably come from families/clans specialising in horse breeding and riding. And yes, the Elmal clans left are going to be maintainers of conservative Elmal rites rather than Yelmalio precisely because of the success of Monrogh - those who embraced the new way left and tromped half way across Sartar to Vanntar. The Elmal clans are a rump remainder, but they will be holding on to their beefs from that schism. I'm not planning to at any point change the nature of the Elmal clans - they'll just be something that doesn't matter much once you move out of a few conservative areas. They matter among the Dinacoli, around RuneGate - but the Yelmalio presence around Alda-Chur and Vanntar is far more important in the scheme of things. Well, of course, it just probably isn't a warrior role a lot of the time. Though light cavalry probably have a bit more leeway for individual deeds, often being used as boundary riders or messengers etc. And mounted archery is nowhere near as reliant on the support of a mass of colleagues. Their role in actual war is largely to defend the flanks of the phalanx though. I think of it less individual choice, and more collective. The Elmali among the Vantaros converted as an entire tribe. If for some reason a Yelmalion individual finds themselves a long way from home and those around then are Elmal, they will go along with it reluctantly, but most of the time they are simply in a Yelmalion community. An interesting question is how much the Vanntar and Far Point Yelmalions embrace the Hyalor Horsebreaker and Redalda cults. It's practically endemic amongst the Elmali - their identity is as much about horses as about Light. And it's big in the provinces to the north of Tarsh, where the homeland of the Sun Dome temples corresponds closely to the area where Redalda is acknowledged as the goddess of sovereignty. But do the Vanntar and Far Point/Vantaros Yelmalions? I'm guessing so, but we don't hear much about cavalry among them. It may be that they balked a bit at a tradition of female sovereignty? The groups that can't muster a significant amount of light cavalry are going to have to supplement their phalangite phalanxs with peltasts and archers/psiloi instead to defend against flanking - this seems to be the main route taken by the Vanntar regiments. I retract this a little, noting that Jeff is similarly considering granting Yelmalio Shield via Yelm, which would at least give them them the one useful bit of defensive magic almost every warrior cult has. Which would take them from laughably weak magic to only notably weak. Their magic really is still pretty terrible though - they don't even get decent combat spirit magic, apart from Lightwall which is of limited application (though still great for troll fighting). Also, they take their most experienced magicians and wall them inside towers to go blind. Seems to just rub it in. Yes, as a collective, Yelmalio has advantages. They organise themselves as a society to have professional soldiers who train regularly and have the discipline and training for proper phalanxes, and can organise the rest of society with them. And as a military unit do not underestimate the advantages of not just good discipline, but great reconnaissance (all those vrok hawk familiars plus permanent Farsee all over the place), a good structured force (they don't just have phalanxes, but other forces trained to fight alongside them and compensate for their weaknesses), and a society with a lot of military leaders with strong authority to organise good logistics etc - all mostly absent from Sartarite armies organised as clan warriors. And, of course, for Vanntar the moral flexibility to make themselves a warrior supremacist society supported by a permanent slave/helot population - worked for the Spartans. But still, its Glorantha - magic counts. And Yelmalio must be absolutely totally outclassed, for example, by Heartland phalanxes that not only also are professional soldiers, but have plenty of great magic (via Polaris, mostly) that very effectively directly supports their phalanx fighting (and archery, and cavalry). The Pentan Kargzant(Lightfore) cavalry also are greatly enhanced by worshipping Polaris alongside Kargzant.

Loving it. So interesting to see Glorantha evolve.

Exactly. IMG Elmal has access to FireArrow and Fireblade because its established canon that he does - there are established PCs in current games who fight using those spells (or the exact HQ equivalent) because I used the current canon materials at the time and I don't like to have Glorantha change underneath my PCs, especially when its for a reason that doesn't make much sense to me. Elmal is a significant cult in some clans because it's established as a significant cult in the Red Cow campaign which is still a current game for my group, and I want my players to think my various games in the 1615-1630 time line are set in the same Glorantha, not different alternate Gloranthas. Tarkalor and Monroghs time is the 1570s, less than 60 years ago, in living memory. Yelmalio is certainly more significant than Elmal at the kingdom level - but neither Sun Dome County or the Yelmalio forces around Alda Chur, while significant, are going to hold a strong appeal to traditional clansmen. I can accept Yelmalio worshippers now outnumber Elmal worshippers, but not that Elmal is more or less gone. Rather, there is still a very interesting tension between Elmal as a version that fits into Orlanthi clan life well (individualist, relies on a minority horse riding and rearing tradition for providing value to the clan) and Yelmalio as a version that represents a change to different, more Northern, values (more collectivist, relies on group training and coordination such as phalanx fighting, socially innovative challenge to traditional Orlanthi values). In a major social change that recent, there should be people still believing in both - people alive who remember the controversy. And thats great. That would make Yelmalio a war god with literally no good combat magic at all available to the majority of worshippers. Sunbright is the only combat spell, and while it's handy for troll fighting, it is pretty weak against almost everyone else Honestly, Yelmalio really needs something not to be just laughably weak as a warrior cult. Better geases, a better associated cult or two? Hastatus maybe so they at least get Truespear? The 90% ability from Gifts is interesting, but not that dramatic in RQG when warriors might start with an ability that high, or nearly so, anyway.

OR a completely alternate theory for the swordbreaker- instead, it could be an innovation of the Delecti lineage of EWF associated vampires, and the swordbreaker and shortsword combination is in imitation of the dragonnewt gami (also a three lobed disarming weapon) and utuma short blade. ok, so the Daughters of Darkness who serve Delecti don’t seem to use the sword breaker. But still, two different three prong disarming weapons seems quite the coincidence....

I think on the spirit plane they do tend towards the Underworld, though perhaps those merely dormant don't go as 'deep'. Shamans of Aldrya exclusively visit the underworld, though I suspect for Aldryami the underworld begins at the top soil. My private theory is that they extend their elf sense into the earth, and then just go down.

I like it. Talars deal with the fluid and changeable symbolism of culture, rather than the unchanging nature of Law. The Brithini seem shocked by the quite martial Seshnegi talars, but that may be the lack of the proper Talar virtues rather than fighting per se. The Zzaburi have a taboo against blood spilling, though. It might have more to do with the proper domain of the zzaburri being the purely mental. And parts of it survive in each of the castes still has their own courts and system of law, plus the traditions of the various internal to the caste institutions like guilds, warrior societies, schools of sorcery, etc. The Western societies have the equivalents of separate martial law, canon law, commercial law, etc. And these separate caste societies live on with the Vadeli, who have been forced build up the dronar and horal sorcery traditions a great deal. I think Brown Vadeli sorcery is mostly descended from ancient dronar magic - the deceptive magic of the Telendarian school is mostly adapted from exploration and trade magic, they command various beast servants through ancient animal husbandry magic, they use a lot of magic that manipulates the physical world from craft magic, plus they have maritime magic as sailors.The Red Vadeli of course have plenty of straight up war and murder magic. The Vadeli mostly actually care about the letter of the law a great deal (they deliberately and joyfully betray the spirit of the law) when it comes to caste restrictions, their immortality requires it too. But there is nothing in Brown or Red Vadeli law to support organising the broad institutions to organise an empire - so they seem to organise their leadership via maritime laws, great Vadeli leaders of the modern era all seem to be Admirals. And they welcomed Hrestol as a judge because it was really helpful (with the yellow Vadeli already extinct before the dawn) to have someone who could easily resolve inter-caste disputes (Vadeli would refuse to do so because it would be usurping the talar caste role, and so risking their immortality). Note the Dara Happans use sceptres of Authority as well - Yelm has one on the Gods Wall. Apparently the Dara Happan Imperial Sceptre is in the likeness of Dayzatar. The Western use is probably more symbolic, perhaps a Mastery or Law rune on a stick? The third accoutrement of authority is the Orb, I think? At least is was mentioned in a few old sources IIRC (including mention of it being used a weapon like a shotput). In our world, this was a specific Christian symbol, the globus cruciger symbolising Christian dominion over the globe, but of course there a lot of things wrong with that in Glorantha! It may have been omitted from the Guide intentionally? An alternate symbolism is that of something like the Eye That Pierces the Veil that is the symbol of God Forgot? The Dara Happan Orb of authority this time seems totally different - their orb is a magical thing that hovers above the head of the ruler. Though it also gets referred to as the Orb Of the Eye.

I think the idea is that a ‘sceptre’ can be repurposed as a mace, though I admit to being somewhat confused between a scepter as a symbol of authority of a king, and a ceremonial mace (such as those used to open parliaments) which are also symbols of authority, but seem to descend from actual weapons used to enforce that authority? in any case, I think it’s a different idea (though similar) to the D&Dism of maces for clerics.

I agree. I like the idea from HQG that the Lunars can sometimes substitute their Moon Rune for another Rune, and I'd like to see the same power sometimes in RQG. This is only 'faking' the power, and it should always (for example) follow the Lunar cycle, but still useful because it lets them cast a Lunar version of magic usually associated with other powers. I don't think that this is at all easily or convenient for truly foreign magics (I don't think the Lunars can ever integrate Orlanth) but is something they might use to get access to the magic of the many and varied magic that has been integrated, such as all the previous incarnations of the goddess.

There is also the idea that the Black Sun, and the Blood Sun, both have Illusion powers. The Herespur cycle gives way to Avanapdur, the Lord of Illusion, and Illusion in Eastern myth is a misunderstanding/perversion of mystic insight. Mysticism teaches that reality ultimately is an Illusion (if Illusion is temporary reality, then conversely reality is just an Illusion that lasts longer), and real truth is something deeper. Avanapdur and other illusionary antigods then say that therefore, Illusion is reality, and they then deny that there is a deeper truth. The Black Sun cult says that their Illusionary Life is Life. The temporary healing of the Blood Sun is still real. I think thats the core of the Black Sun/Blood Sun from an Eastern mystic perspective. They follow Herespur etc, and when he submits to Avanapdur a tradition of Solar blood sacrifice is changed/made more powerful by his Illusion powers.

I'd pretty much decided that I'd rule that way - otherwise you end up with the odd situation where training would generally mean you learn much less in a season in which you are training. On gender - let me add my voice to say we should NOT have any gender based differences, but instead base skills on profession and cult and culture as we do now. Gender based difference will manifest in cultural preferences for profession and cult (which need not apply to PCs). On obligations to cult etc - note this works both ways, many cults offer free or cheap training for initiates in certain skills, and may encourage their development. The cult is likely to turn a forgiving eye at the initiate who is busy learning their Firespeech catechism or whatever. For some cults, the cult allowing free training for initiates is essentially the only path forwards - Lhankor Mhy, notably, which requires mastery of (not improvable by experience and often rare or exotic) knowledge skills.

I said a different tradition, not a different deity. So the question of whether Nontraya and Vivamort are different deities/mythic entities is a different one. A single deity can have multiple forms of worship. Oakfed and Enverinus are more or less the same deity - the Holy Fire, that can be the sacrificial fire or the funeral fire. But in Prax Oakfed is a nomadic shamanic tradition of unruly wildfire, while Enverinus is an urban priesthood of sedate ritual practice. Tolat and Shargash are the same deity, but Alkothi warrior killers and Trowjwang amazon god lovers are wildly different traditions. And so on. And Vivamort is tradition that originates in the West (are there any explicit references to vampires prior to the First Age Vampire Kings of Tannisor?) and are from a sorcerous culture. Vampire magic seems sorcerous, and it's clear that vampires (who can't cast spirit magic or learn Rune magic) rely heavily on sorcery. Besides vampire specific magic, it seems that vampires would learn (and presumably share) other sorcery. I've already mentioned its likely link to the Vadeli Telendarian school of sorcery. Also the very artificial sounding name (LifeDeath but in Latin) makes it sound like a sorcerous entity, an anthropomorphised principle. Plus, my private theory that the distinctive Sword breaker cult weapon is a form of talar mace, turned into a specialist weapon, a remnant of the Vampire Kings. There was a reference somewhere to Talars drifting from strict caste rules still not using horali sword but using their mace of authority as a weapon, and throwing 'crowns' - any know it? If Nontraya is the same deity as Vivamort (which I'm no longer sure of - Nontraya seems to be a deity of Underworld demons and dead let out of Hell, not quite the same thing), it may well be it is a separate tradition, one that stems from different magical roots, a perversion of theist tradition rather than a truly sorcerous one. Perhaps they are able to summon talokans demons with scorpion forms or scorpion tail whips, wings and best forms, etc? Perhaps the (controversial) ability to steal rune magic is part of the Nontraya tradition? Anyway, noting the current, and current draft, material about vampires and Vivamort doesn't mention Nontraya. A couple of comments says Vivamort is a God Learner name for Nontraya, but we know the God Learners often got the details wrong. Maybe it is a different tradition, maybe an entirely different entity. Comments in the Guide treat them as different entities.

The official Elmal cult has exactly the same access to fire as Elmal, but to my surprise, the draft of GoG removes Yelmalios access to fire elementals - so neither have many fire powers, neither can summon elementals.This does make sense, though it further removes useful magic from an already notoriously weak cult. Yelmalio Chief Priests get access to Sunspear via Yelm as an associated cult. The associated cults are the main other difference in magic besides the lack of gifts and geases. Elmal getting Shield from Orlanth is a big deal - one of the most useful spells for a warrior god - but Sunspear from Yelm - one of the most powerful physical attack spells - is too (though basically every Elmal initiate is going to have access to Shield, only the highest ranks of the Yelmalio cult have access to Sunspear). Elmal retains Yelmalios association with Ernalda and Aldrya. Both can be associated with Hyalor Horsebreaker, getting Command Horse, but I think this is much more common among the Elmal cultists in Dragon Pass. Yelmalio is also associated with Vrimak and Yelorna, and I don't think Elmal, so they lose the association with birds. Elmal cultists do not learn hoplite/pike fighting, though they are still spearmen, and learn Riding instead (personally, I think they get Kuschile archery 'for free', without having to take a geas). In my personal game, Elmal is also permitted access to Firearrow and Fireblade, mostly because I didn't want to retcon the cult too much with those abilities being very regularly used by a PC in my HQ game, with the mythic validation that Orlanth returned Elmals weapons to hm after defeating him at the Hill of Gold. Jeffs Glorantha Will Vary. Yelmalio and Elmal are both absolutely terrible for magic for a warrior cult. They essentially have negative weapon enhancing magic - less than if they were not members at all. And Yelmalio has very limited protective magic too. Yelmalio gets a smattering of instant weapon masters, and some enhanced attributes, but I don't think thats enough to make up for it. The cults tactics are effective enough in a group, so they compensate somewhat en masse but not much as as individual. The cult is obviously popular with players, but very much despite its weakness as an effective choice.

Also, the modern Orlanth cult is a result of efforts (particularly by the First Council in the First Age, and by first the EWF and then the Alakoringites in opposition in the late Second Age) to make a cult that was originally pretty culturally heterogenous into a single unified mythology. Bronze Age cults naturally tend contain many divergent local traditions, and for these local traditions to continually keep evolving new local differences (while it is the natural tendency of Empires to promote homogeneity). A lot of these 'aspects' or Orlanth might have once been a local variation. A single hero discovers a new myth, or an ancient one prior to the First Council somehow is discovered, it is promoted locally, eventually the wider religion incorporates it as an aspect.

I think that spontaneous/unassisted shamanic awakening is very rare, a Hero thing. and if your cult forbids being a shaman, then on becoming a shaman you normally lose cult status, just as if you broke a geas. The loophole is, as always, Illumination. You can ignore the rule like other cult rules - as long as no one decides it’s suspicious. Which may explain a lot of Argrath related tricks. But that for hero types, there are other possibilities. Non-shamanic heroes accumulate POW on the spirit plane, but access it differently. And note the idea of a Kaelith from the Xeotam dialogues - a hero who returns from the underworld can come back with the power to change shape, or to discorporate.

What became of the dragons and dragonnewts of Pamaltela is a mystery, they simply aren’t mentioned, I didn’t even know there used to be dragonnewts until Jeff mentioned it in this thread. I have a few theories about dragons. One theory is the absence of dragons and the proliferation of greater hydrae is not a coincidence, that when a dragon falls to chaos a greater hydra results. Another theory is that just as so much of Pamaltela appears to be evolving backwards, that means that in Pamaltela instead of dinosaurs resulting from dragonnewts devolution, dinosaurs may turn into dragonnewts - and eventually dragons. Of course there are the slarges. I personally think that is a different mystery, though. The origin myth of the slarges doesn’t explain the alternating generations. For greater/lesser slarges - that might be another mystery story, something that happened to them long afterwards that we don’t know anything about. Slarges have some connection to dinosaurs, if only that they herd them.

Sorcery in The Smoking Ruins mostly just confirmed for me that most of the criticisms I have of sorcery seem to be pretty valid, and it’s nigh unusable as a system to achieve any of the things players (including GMs) are likely to want from it.

Sounds like you’ve been reading Sheng’s propaganda. Sheng the sort of guy who made rivers run red with blood in Kralorela. Did he suddenly discover a thirst for justice in Dara Happa? Shen returned to ancient Jenarong rites to claim solar Emperorship. Which largely meant returning to a version of Yelm that venerated Kargzant - who mandated harsh nomad code - rather than Antirius. Sheng literally at the core of his regime had bands of fanatic nomads riding around and sacking any city that seemed to offer opposition. Sheng did bring ‘bureaucracy’ in any meaningful way - the Empire had plenty of that before Sheng, and afterwards.

No. The Lunar occupation did not involve regularly visiting Sartarite communities for no reason other than rape and murder, and did not involve destroying agriculture, causing famine for millions, as a matter of policy. OK sure, the wind stop and the winter of 1621-1622. But that was one harvests worth, and most clans had food stores. Shengs policy of starvation went on for years. And back to the original question, because this is goal post shifting - minorities in Dara Happa were what was originally discussed, not the extremes of the Sartarite war front, and we have nothing to suggest they were ever subject to organised terrorism through regular rape and murder, or starved in famine conditions. My source is the Greya excerpt in Moon Rites, written by Greg. Sheng brutalised the people of Peloria as a matter of policy - not to defeat them in war, but afterwards as an ongoing thing.

Well, in Shengs Empire, regular rape and murder, plus destroying the agricultural system to there is famine and mass starvation as a matter of policy. It’s easy if you really try.

I've run a short Lunar HGQ game. I used the HQG rules, and while I read the ILH2 ones I didn't end up using them much. The Lunar Magic rules, with the multiple phases, are really interesting. Lunar characters can become very versatile - which eventually more than compensates for the lack of feats, IMO. Lunar characters can also mix in some sorcery, which also mixes it up a little, and my game featured a Jakaleel shaman too. And a Carmanian Necromancer. Illumination is peculiar. It is only a 1 pt ability, but it changes a character a lot, and many PCs will want to have it. But becoming Illuminated in the pure Lunar tradition is supposed to be quite traumatic, and quite a story challenge, so you might want to consider you handle it. Illumination can be a fun story element - NPCs coming up with mad plans in a fit of Illuminated zeal, untrustworthy gurus, issuing bizarre commands, etc. A major element for a Lunar game can easily be politics, deceit, the enemy within etc.

Yes, the Yelm cult in Dara Happa could be regarded as anti-Lunar at the time of Jannisor, but that was 350 years ago. OK, so it got a bit weird around the time of Sheng Seleris, when Sheng tried to turn the Yelm cult to him, and succeeded with some, but most of them hated him and hate him still.

And the Dara Happan version has a LOT more associated cults. As there are quite a few great temples about, that means a very wide range of room magic is available. And notably the Imperators are quite Lunarized - in Dara Happa the Yelm hierachy is unified with the Lunar hierarchy at the upper levels.

Bingo.... Which means Illumination will always have attractions to adherents of such cults. And it may even indicate Illuminants have even help the cult take its current form. Which means Illumination will always have attractions to adherents of such cults. And it may even indicate Illuminants have even help the cult take its current form. Which says some interesting things about the First Age. We already knew the supporters of Nysalor interfered with the Yelmalio/Lightfore cult, and introduced mystic elements to make it the Daysenarus cult - possibly the reason why only some variants have gifts and geases, a useful thing for mystics. And there is a very obvious candidate for doing the same thing to the Humakt cult... what if the Humakt cult has gifts and geases everywhere because of Arkat? Just a fun little theory. Personally I think a guarantee of no consequences at all for breaking a geas is a bit too reliable and powerful. Maybe you lose the gift temporarily or something. But gifts and geases are sure a better deal for Illuminants.

I’ve tended to think of Joy as something like religious ecstasy. I’ve also considered something like concept of Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel from Western esoteric tradition, it that seems ultimately too complex for something that is the entry level achievement for Men-of-all.