davecake

Anyone know more about her besides what is the Guide and Wyrms Footnotes? Her mother is said to be a Jonating warrior woman, and she is said to be favoured by her mothers 'grim death god' - which god is that? Likely candidates (that is, known Jonating Grim Death Gods) include Humakt, Babeester Gor, and Shargash under the name Vorthan. She defeats the Queen of the Kiss. What brings her into conflict with her? And of course - what exactly is it she is considered Guilty of?

There were rules for playing Dragonnewts back in Wyrms Footprints 14 in 1982. It isn't for everyones game for sure, but it was doable - though it relied on Pendragon style personality traits.

In the East Isles game that I have planned, but have yet to run, any merman PC will get access to 'the Wave that Walks', a 1m3 elemental whose purpose is to act as a sort of wheelchair type assistance for merfolk getting about on land. Of course, you'd want to avoid getting into melee combat - it is fairly fragile. I wouldn't recommend anything but a Crested Dragonnewt as a PC. Ducks are actually very easy - for the most part they have much the same culture as the humans they live among, so they are someone from another clan who happens to be a funny shape as well. This also works for keets in the East Isles. Any of the main three elder races can work easily - give them a reason to leave their community, a reason to cooperate with the party, and you are away. Even quite a mixed party, with several from the one elder race works well, or even an entire party is so inclined. But mixed elder races are much harder to justify unless the same explanation for their presence is also the games main theme.

While totally true, it is also explicit (in both HQG and in the RQG GoG draft) that the Truth rune and knowledge skills are required for advancement in the cult, sorcery is not. The SKoH writeup also notes that there are some Lhankor Mhy who are deeply conservative regarding sorcery, and essentially consider the study of sorcery beyond Torvalds Fragments to be problematic. Or clearly present elsewhere in the text, depending on perspective. I certainly think that LM never shies away from Rune magic - it is how they express the divine power of Truth, rather than the limited power of human intellect which strives towards it. LM sages are not Malkioni philosophers. And note that becoming a sorcerer, for most LM, is actually going to *weaken* their magic for many purposes (as they have access to a wide range of spirit magic from associated cults, and generally speaking will know only a very few spells). Most Sages do not have the time to become an expert dedicated sorcerer, but have other things that consume their time (the requirement to become an expert at Lore skills, priestly duties, duties to clan or tribe if not living at a knowledge temple). If there is no requirement to become a sorcerer to be a senior Sage, it is not necessary to perform the core duties of a sage, and is not often a magically sensible choice, I would assume many Sages would have little interest in becoming an expert sorcerer. But one of the things we do know about the cult is that it is highly factionaiised and has no central hierarchy. And we also know that it varies widely. As the HQG writeup puts it: and The idea that all LM sages are sorcerers seems implausible for a cult of advisors to wild hill chieftains, especially as it seems to have a very limited connection to the majority of LM myth and social role. So I am going to assume that the study of sorcery is very much optional. However, lets assume that their exist LM temple organisations or factions that DO believe sorcery is mandatory, and assume constant squabbbling. When we think of LM sages, let us imagine in every grouping of multiple temples, there is channeling Peter's viewpoint, deriding the non-sorcerers as bumpkins or incompetents. It certainly does not seem to be a requirement in any existing cult writeup, including relatively recent ones. Lhankor Mhy is the god of written language, and of knowledge, and those are the formal requirements. I am sure there are LM who insist that demonstrating facility with sorcery should be a requirement, but there are also some who think every Sage should be able to function as an Orlanthi lawspeaker, and some who insist that every sage should be able to write multiple languages. I kind of like the idea (mostly for comedy purposes) that in some temples it is treated in much the same way as disciplines like psychology treat statistics. You learn enough to get past your exams and then never again. I think it is more common than that - for example, of the 6 named Sages of the Jonstown temple in the Sartar Companion, 3 are given the Law rune and can be assumed to be sorcerers, including Minaryth Purple, Garangian Bronze-Guts (the Chief Librarian), and Kalf the Maker (a student of Alchemy and Mostali lore). (Not saying those who do not have the Law rune are definitely not sorcerers, but I do think those with the Law rune definitely are). Whether any of them knows any sorcery beyond cult sorcery is another story entirely (though I wouldn't put it past Minaryth, and it is implied that Kalf knows some Mostali secrets - whether this extends to actual Mostali sorcery is another question). but I also think that libraries with significant material beyond the Torvald Fragments are much rarer than that. The majority of temples are going to have some subset of the Torvald Fragments and a few scraps here and there - and what they have is often going to be sorcerous material that is untranslated and in its original tongue (usually Western, Auld Wyrmish or in some temples New Pelorian). Note the rule about sorcerous skills being limited by literacy (and yes, this is the original tongue the spell is written in - translation is not automatic, but more like creating a new spell), and many Lhankor Mhy regard use of sorcery that is not translated by the Alien Combination Machine process (and so part of the Eternal Book) to be suspect. In short, for most Lhankor Mhy sorcerers study of the Torvalds Fragments grimoire is relatively straight forward, becoming a master sorcerer tends to distract from the mastery of Lore that leads to being a senior Sage - but study of other sorcery is even more so, time consuming and frustrating and perhaps the work of decades to get access to the level of knowledge a Malkioni might have access to during their apprenticeship.

It should be, but I think there is not enough left to sustain one. Except a Rune Lord and a Sword Sage are explicitly not usually the same thing - the discussion of Rune Lord status in Cults of Prax is mostly about clarifying that most of the time, Rune Lords are not fighters. You could take the text to imply that there are Sword Sages specifically in Pavis, but literally almost no where else - but in any case assuming that Rune Lord status in RQ2 implies anything about more modern texts, and then implying a melee fighter is therefore always a user of combat sorcery, is a chain of dubious implication that gets us nowhere. Lhankor Mhy is explicitly a god of knowledge which is *sometimes* sorcery. As I said earlier, I think Sword Sages are a small minority almost anywhere, and Sword Sage only means knows physical combat ability. Most Sword Sages are just sages who know how to fight in order to defend the temple and themselves - it doesn't imply anything more than that.

We are parsing it differently. I'm just saying they master Truth before any other Rune. So they are already at a mild disadvantage in becoming a combat specialist, having devoted effort in other directions. Mastering a rune has almost nothing to do with learning non-sorcerous skills. Eh? Pavis:TtDp suggests there are only 3 LM sages in the whole place, I think it unlikely two are Sword Sages. We know of one retired Sword Sage who mostly specialises in languages. I think you might find one or two, maybe even an ongoing chain of specialists recruiting others - but even so, a lot of Sword Sages aren't going to be sorcerers. Certainly in Nochet, the single greatest LM library in the world, you might reasonably expect to find a solid collection of sorcery spells including some combat spells in the library, but that isn't really the same thing as an ongoing living tradition of combat sorcerers. The distinguishing characteristic of Sword Sages is wanting to learn to fight, which is far removed from being a sorcerer. While it makes sense that a Sword Sage who also learns sorcery might want to learn sorcery that complements their fighting ability, there are a lot of intermediate steps between 'is likely to want to learn' and 'has access to an ongoing tradition that enables and encourages it'.

Absolutely. The Kitori religious practices don't even extend across all of Kethaela, most Esrolian Argan Argar worshippers are neither Kitori nor part of the Nightcult. There is also Argar Argar as husband protector of Ernalda, but who have never acknowledged the OOO as ruler, for example. And the OOO, Kitori and Nightcult have nothing at all to do with Argan Argar in Ralios (the covert Argan Argar Chain, controlled from Halikiv), or the pockets of worship in Peloria and Fronela. I also don't think the Torkani are part of the Nightcult, though I don't know the history of why.

I think repertoire is likely overstating it. for example, a wannabe Sword Sage in Jonstown might be told that if they want to learn combat sorcery, they might consider going and talking to that guy in New Pavis. Who might know a couple of spells. After you've already mastered Truth, and if you can find a teacher. No LM specialises in runes other than Truth first. So even if they know a combat spell it is likely they are casting it at double MPs. And LM sages just aren't likely to be that good at sorcery, considering they have already had to devote a lot of their training time to the skills required to become a sage, then added some combat skills on top of that. There certainly aren't going to be any powerful sorcerers created by the normal character creation process. Sword Sages who know significant combat sorcery are a minority of small minority of a minority cult. There might be half a dozen or less in the whole Dragon Pass region. And most of those won't be terribly good - just competent enough to not be embarrasing. And the cult specialises in fighting techniques, not combat sorcery. I think most Sword Sages (a small minority of the cult in the first place) rather get their combat magic from also being Orlanth initiates. Of course, if your GM is ok with your temple having an expert combat magician who can tutor you so you can have a Sword Sage character, sure, it can work in your game (within the bounds of the character creation system, which won't make it easy). But I don't think it is anything like normal or representative. There are, of course, the Free Philosophers of the Sartar Magical Union. But 'perform purification rites and use theurgic symbols to enable their souls to ascend the layers of existence and correspond to the divine.' doesn't sound like Sword Sages at all, I think they use an entirely different range of magical effects (and probably learn some of their magical effects from the Western sorcerers in other parts of the SMU).

Black Arkat are a very different case to LM Sword Sages. Black Arkat has reasonable combat Rune magic (elementals, Dark Walk, becoming a troll), good spirit magic, and their specialist sorcery is synergistic with it. LM Sword Sages have no useful combat Rune magic (besides Common Rune magic) or spirit magic, and their sorcery knowledge is heavily specialised in other directions.

Potentially. Does the Lhankor Mhy cult necessarily know most, or even any, of those spells? Or know how to master any Runes but Truth? Certainly Truth is the first rune taught and may be the only one known for most LM temples. And potentially isn't the same as guaranteed - sorcerous spells are powerful if sufficient time is used to prepare the appropriate spell in advance, which can be very time consuming if the chance to cast the spell is poor (almost certainly the case for an LM Sword sage using combat magic). Just being a sorcerer does not automatically mean you are better at combat magic than a non-sorcerer. Very far from it. You can do pretty well if given time to prepare, and you prepare the appropriate thing - but even then it lacks flexibility, and is very resource heavy for the effect. And having a well rounded set of combat magic - defences, attacks, melee buffs, physical defences, summoning spells - is very difficult for sorcerers, but the default for most combat cults like Orlanth or Humakt. So even being a combat specialist sorcerer isn't necessarily better than a theist combat magician - more potential at the expense of a lot of flexibility - and a LM sorcerer won't be a dedicated combat specialist Eventually, but not initially. If you are a sage, and have learnt some initial Truth sorcery - everything you add is going to be using your leftover resources, which initially will not be very large. Most LM sorcerers are mediocre at best at anything except Truth magic, and even having significant knowledge of anything other than Truth magic/Torvalds Fragments is rare.

I prefer Humakt gifts and geases as predictable, gifts corresponding to related geases, as they were in RQ3.

I don't see the reasoning that Sword Sages are powerful. Literally no good combat Rune Magic, and very demanding skill requirements as a sage, so even if they have sorcery (which is usually a net reduction in magical effectiveness under the RQG rules, given the limits to spirit magic) their sorcery skills/spells will likely to be low, and focussed on information gathering magic. They are a fun concept to make sages more fun to play, not much more.

They are mentioned in a sidebar in the Sartar Companion. Essentially they are Argan Argar Nightcult members who also learn sorcery. it would be easy to create a grimoire of appropriate sorcery, based heavily on the old Arkat writeup in Troll Gods. It is probably safe to assume that the Arkat cult also teaches, covertly, some form of Illumination, but I certainly don't think that they actively teach it to all members. There are also almost certainly Illuminated Arkati who follow Humakt, but I don't think they are the same people - the Black Arkat members would be more likely to adopt Zoran Zoran as a war god, and that would be somewhat rare. I don't think they are uber powerful, in either game system, though they are notably flexible. Sorcery gives then a few good options, but I don't think the Black Arkat followers usually specialise in hand to hand combat sorcery, but rather in the kind of metamagical stuff seen in the Troll Gods writeup - powerful magicians, rather than powerful warriors. Note that the combination of the Arkat Boost Elemental spell and the potential to join the Lesser Household sub-cult allowing them access to other elementals (all except fire) makes them among the most flexible and accomplished elemental magicians there are. The truth is that they while they have useful unique capabilities, they still are stuck with limited resources - they still have to divide their time and POW etc between the different paths, and are unlikely to master all.

The Kitori in current canon seems to have changed from being a separate race of beings that could easily change between human and troll (as described by Greg in the thread Joerg references), to being mostly Darkness worshipping humans, or a mixed troll and human tribe. It is hard to tell whether this is a conceptual change, or a historical one (eg the Kitori were a separate magical race in the First Age, but are two separate races with common magic now), or a popular misconception (they were always two separate races, whose common use of a transformative magic confused people). In any case, currently the Kitori ancestral religion (no longer strictly confined to the Kitori) is the Nightcult, a sub-cult or variant of Argan Argar that has a spell to transform a human into a troll for a day or night. Trollmouth is a hero cult that appears to grant even more substantial shapeshifting powers (in HQ it is a Feat), including gender changes. I suspect in RQG it would be a heroquest power? There is also a separate sub-cult of the Only Old One/Ezkankekko, but its ability to cure wounds caused by Iron is presumably of limited value to human worshippers. Though the Torkani are descendants of the Kitori, I don't think they worship the Nightcult? Though they do worship Argan Argar. Perhaps they are post-Belintar refugees who abandoned the Nightcult after the OOOs defeat? Joerg, I had forgotten just how much effort we spent on trying to work out the details of the Kitori! It is mentioned in WF15 "The rest were became the Ergeshi slaves of the Templars and forced to renounce the Trollmouth and their Kitori magic." - so the Ergeshi are simply Kitori humans forced not to initiate.

And the Pelmre are never mentioned as having the unusual breeding cycle of the slarges - I think there may be a story about how the Pelmre became the slarges, likely involving either the Artmali and/or the Vadeli. The Guide treats the Pelmre and the slarges as identical (eg references to pelmre in RM were replaced by slarges). But I still don't think that implies the slarges and the lascerdans are the same thing, just because they are both reptiles. And the lascerdans seems different in multiple other ways.

While that is a natural assumption, I'm not sure it is correct. They seem quite distinct from the slarges both racially, and in mythic origin. Though we have several reptilian mysteries in Pamaltela to consider: Why are there no dragons or dragonnewts in Pamaltela? Why are there so many hydrae? The Pelmre of Doraddi myth explains the origins of the slarges to the Doraddi - but are the pelmre really the same as the slarges? In particular, have the slarges always had their peculiar alternating generations reproductive cycle, or did this change at some point? The slarges themselves are of course an ongoing mystery, as regards both the eccentric practices of the giants, and the more regular practices of the regular sized slarges. The Earth titans (Genert and Pamalt) are both represented as reptiles below the waist - and perhaps this means the minor earth female spirits/temple guardians that are known in Genertela have male equivalents, even are somewhat fertile or otherwise more numerous in Pamaltela?

I know that this is a RuneQuest thread but.... we’ve had gifts and geases and Illumination rules in HeroQuest for *years*, and I’ve had PCs in my HQ games with both for years. How they relate should be a Gloranthan question, not a game system question. So by the logic of ‘deal with it when it’s hits your game’, I think we are past due. (quite aside from that, I do have the GoG preview, and I expect Illuminated PCs very soon) My assumption is that the god, at some level, is reacting to guilt of the worshipper, or their awareness of breaking a geas - and the Illuminate is able to bypass that in the same manner as they bypass spirits of retribution. But it would be nice to a smidgen more clarity.

How does this reconcile with Illuminates seemingly being able to get away with it? Real question, it would be good to have some explanatory model.

I don't think it is mysticism as such (Natha, for example, is still definitely a goddess who grants Rune spells), but more magic that is more compatible with a mystic culture. Mysticism just doesn't generally do powerful flashy magic - but it can profoundly change how individuals relate to their other sources of powerful flashy magic. I think we are still talking about theism etc, but theism from a culture were people spend a lot of time in meditation regularly might be different.

I personally always run it as the flatness of Glorantha is a magical, not a physical and universal, thing. There is a horizon, in normal practice what you see is totally reasonable. Once you get outside the 'middle world' it changes, but not always in reliable or consistent ways. You can see a long way from the top of magical mountains, but that could be interpreted as the mountains being magical.

Maybe it is kind of like a haka? In earth cult ceremonies they have to ritually stomp, threaten, glare and look scary?

I was incredibly pleased with how my players dealt with the question of offering a hospitality oath to Temertain, in the Colymar campaign in Sartar: KoH. In the campaign, this is usually a terrible dilemma - they are there to steal from Temertain, so swearing to abide by the rules of hospitality then stealing from him would make them oathbreakers (both making them vulnerable to attacks by the spirits of retribution, and having potentially disastrous consequences in a later heroquest). not wanting to give my players response away to anyone yet to run through it, I put it in spoiler tags

I think the Seven Mothers missionaries have a whole spiel along those lines, including how the Red Goddess allows you to reconnect with Life and joy without having to reject your warrior past and so on.

Full agreement. We already have various 'Trance' magics. I would be happy if some of these explicitly linked to the Meditation skill - it doesn't sound like that would be something that would work for eg Babeester Gor or Humakt, where it is more like a combat frenzy - but for Nathic warriors, Eastern martial artists etc, various mystics, it sounds like it would be a great idea.

Or that they are usually accompanied by singing - it may not be a necessity, but simply a practice. I think, for example, that many Ernalda ceremonies involve singing, and it is a very common ceremonial method for them, but I don't think that means their spells require it, or (as it shows in the skill lists) priestesses are required to be good at singing (just like many many Christian churches). It may even be that while the congregation always sings, their singing is to augment the dance, which in turn is not required but simply the chosen method of ceremonial magic enhancement - which would still mean an initiate gets a lot of practice singing! Where singing is required to cast a spell it is usually directly specified (eg Comfort Song, Tree Chopping Song). I think singing well is not required for the magic to work, in most cases. It can give us plenty of cultural detail though, especially about the details between lay member/initiate ceremonies, vs inner mysteries. Yinkin lay members learn about cats, but the inner mysteries are about becoming (and being good at) being a cat. Yelmalio lay members sing hymns and learn the sacred language and about the skies - not everyone is expected to be part of the warrior culture. Most cults that require the Peaceful Cut sing it, and value singing. Even Lhankor Mhy and Issaries use singing in their ceremonies, though it seemingly has nothing to do with the inner mysteries of the cults. The Argan Argar cult outer mysteries are basically Darktongue language classes (which actually makes a lot of sense). And so on.