davecake

Yes, I thought I mentioned this earlier in the thread? Also there are the OrganStones and other parts of the Faceless Stone Statue (ultimately, Mostali Maker magic), other Flintnail artifacts, etc. Plus in fan material, there are the Masks of Pavis, a number of enchanted masks worn by certain magical office holders of the city/cult that are heavily enchanted.

I don't think it is simply about size, it is about city gods not generally being active or martial enough to need a role other than priest. And many don't even have any real need for rune lords even then - if your city wyter is, for example, also a sub-cult of a major god that has Rune Lords, what would be the point? Most city gods barely have priests - most have just the City Harmony spell and a handful of common magic (and Pavis is not different because he is more powerful, his divine magic is equally limited - he just has his priests double as sorcerers for an extra magical boost). I doubt the champion of Pavis has much more magical benefits than the priests - apart from the support of Pavis sorcery, which may be significant. There will be a few cities that have Rune Lords, or something like them. There are other cities that are every bit as unusual as Pavis, and far more large and powerful - Tondiji, maybe Glamour spring to mind, Sog City, etc. And their city gods would be a lot more than just city gods.

While Pavis is exceptional, the Temple Guardian example in the bestiary implies that a wyter granting access to a spell as a sub-cult/associated cult is something that happens (though not with all wyters).

I think almost no City Gods have Rune Lords (and Pavis barely does - it is more of a holdover from the RQ2 era when every cult had rune lords that they have them at all). And the status of connection to the wyter is referred to as the 'priest' - admittedly it is a different role in theory to a normal Rune priest, but I think it is a priestly role for every cult except those martial cults were the Rune Lord role has replaced Rune Priest entirely. Also, Pavis is extra weird in that it's (now) more like a small city cult with a sorcery school and a lot of 'heroquest benefits' tacked on. Its not the usual representative because almost all city gods have no rune lord equivalent at all. Pavis is a weird exception to many rules - for both Gloranthan and publication historical reasons - and we shouldn't use it as a precedent for anything, but try to make it behave more normally where we can. Yes. I don't think most city gods may not even have a dedicated priesthood - they have ceremonies, but their priests are either part of associated cult ceremonies, or leaders doing occasional ceremonies as part of their role, that amount to just collectively tending a shrine. The effectively large priesthood of Pavis is only sustainable because they are effectively a sorcerous cabal with the additional magical resources gathered by Pavis himself (eg their access to elementals, the Organstones) to draw on, probably including a fair few sorcerous artifacts when needed. I personally really like the Masks of Pavis (I don't think they are canon though), and there are the various magical defences first mentioned in Strangers In Prax, and presumably a fair stock of useful Mostali artifacts via Flintnail.

Yes, you can retire from being a professional killer (a lot of older Humakti seem to become trainers as a day to day job), but not from being a Humakti, at least not without serious consequence. It is different for Yanafals Tarnils, of course - just ask them, they will be only too happy to explain how the path towards Illumination can heal the soul from the need for violence.

Yes, if there is any cross language understanding (the Guide says 'not mutually intelligible' but also says its considered a language family, so I am assume some limited similarity) it should follow the Gloranthan taxonomy. Quite where this gets into detail is a good question - we know that the different porcupine peoples are not the same, but do the various sub-type of Rathori (the multiple children of Rathor) speak the same language? Seems likely they are maybe close dialects at least (I know, for example, of some Australian Indigenous dialects that differ only by a few words and replacing/adding some syllables systematically, making them about as easy to understand as an English speaker would find a strong foreign accent). I know a little of one such, Pitjantjatjarra, and the dialect is literally named after the one common word that is different to its neighbours ('pitja', to go). Similar with the Pujaleg - I presume their languages have enough in common for it not to be a major problem with their Empire, but there could also be some magical way to work around it as well. Does Speak to <Totem Animal>, a pretty common spell, effectively mean everyone is communicating in the Hsunchen language, at least for Hsunchen? I presume that (as it allows Oratory, etc) that it's more like speaking than non-linguistic telepathy? But bears raise another interesting question - is there any linguistic connection to the non-hsunchen bear cults, like the Odayla cult, or the various other Pelorian bear cults? In general, is there any such connection between Hsunchen and non-hsunchen animal cults?

Its just the extreme - minor versions of Asrelia treasure houses are everywhere throughout Esrolia at least (less so in other Heortling or earth cult lands), and they frequently invest in money-making ventures, particularly mining. Issaries is the most prevalent, and wide ranging in its activity, of the mercantile inclined cults - but it is also one of the least unified I think. Multiple extended trading networks, and lots of independents. Asrelia functions more as bankers than traders perhaps - but then, dealing with credit rather than the movement of physical goods is more a banking than a trading function. Probably a lot of the physical mechanics here are based around the whole 'tear the note in half' technique. Argan Argar networks The chain reaches there I think. The trade networks here are the 'Argan Argar Chain' (guide pg 382). The troll networks really are too separated too function as long distance chain - there are too many areas with very few trolls - so the Argan Argar cult has built up networks including human worshippers, in some places openly (the Kitori especially but possibly the Torkani, other parts of the Holy Country, etc), in other places effectively a secret society (Safelster, maybe even up to Yolp). The network probably also extends up to Fronela too. Where there are both human and troll AA worshippers, I am sure they talk to each other.

They are known as fiwan in Pamaltela. the Hsunchen languages are magical - each type of Hsunchen speak the same language in even widely separated tribes, so their languages do not experience linguistic drift. I suspect some of the other magical languages of Glorantha (Spiritspeech, the elemental languages, including Darktongue) similarly don’t experience linguistic drift, so words/names will be pronounced the same everywhere. Or even if they do not, the many immortal speakers will significantly slow it.

It makes a lot of sense - he makes physical devices. Leonardo is just exposing the general Brithini idea that of course sorcery and philosophy are intrinsically linked and the highest logic as the dubious Zzaburi classism that it is.

I think the 'priest' of Pavis as wyter is also the High Priest, aka the Son of Pavis. I think the Champion of Pavis is not that important - Pavis was a sorcerer and magician, not a warrior, and the Champion is subservient to the priesthood. The Son of Pavis magically represents Pavis in various important rituals. It may well be the Pavis has his power as wyter of the Real City reduced. I don't think he performs many regular wyter functions any more, perhaps his failure to leave his temple is because of the lack of rulership of the Real city "The Pavis Temple of the Real City (in the Big Rubble) is the home of Lord Pavis. Within that magical Room Without Doors, the priests speak directly to Pavis." So the priests have regular contact with him. Quite possibly instead of moving around as an active wyter, his main magical support of the city is assisting his priests in casting powerful sorcerous rituals of various kinds.

I might be drawing on info in GoG about the treasure storehouses of Asrelia temples are also used to store the valuables of worshippers on deposit and for loans? I think any worshipper (and by default, all Earth worshippers reveres Asrelia, even if not their primary goddess) is going to trust their temple unless given a VERY good reason not too. The issue is not whether the temples are trusted, but whether the temples trust each other. The situations for Issaries and Asrelia are very different. The problem with Issaries markets is that they are often fluid and changable institutions, and not usually monolithic ones - why would you expect two markets to honour the debts of each other, when the actual merchants involved might be entirely different people, with different stock, connected only by their temporary involvement in one market along their route? So it is only going to work if the various merchants involved trust one another, hence are part of the same established network. Asrelia temples, on the other hand, are large stable repositories of wealth. They might not move wealth around much, but they are used to keeping track of debts and interest etc. There are probably Argan Argar networks (but maybe only in the Shadowlands and Safelster), and Lokarnos and Etyries networks too, but whether they extend as far as dealing in credit notes will vary.

I would think the real candidate for transferrable credit between temples might be Asrelia. Hide Wealth would seem to be perfect for keeping letters of credit etc well protected. The only issue is the wording of the spell " If any of the hidden goods are moved, the spell dissipates." - I take this to mean 'if any of the goods are removed from the hidden cache, rather than just physical movement relative to the Earth. Eg I think Hide Wealth be used to hide goods in a wagon or ship. Issaries merchants are traders, and certainly create organised trade networks where they can (though they would have no reason to respect credit from other Issaries traders outside their networks). Asrelia cultists are more like banks - storing deposited goods and producing them on demand is part of their role, it stands to reason one of them might have the bright idea of saving the expense of actually moving physical goods around when near identical goods have been deposited at multiple temples. In addition many temples of Issaries are markets with temporary leadership (and often more or less temporary existence - it fills up for certain market days, and might empty in between). When the rules say that Temples of Issaries honour letters of credit from other temples, I think that likely means temples of Issaries controlled by groups that form a trade network. Anything past that probably requires some convincing.

I personally think the wyter of Pavis is Pavis, but he is a special case - generally uninterested in leaving his temple, not subservient to anyone including his chief priest, more powerful than his limited number of worshippers now would imply. Acts more like a Temple Guardian than a city god most of the time, but has a pile of interesting sorcery to make up for it. Pavis is already an exception in multiple ways.

I doubt the Basmoli have changed much since previous editions - I expect they will be covered under Hykim and Mikyh in the Gods of Glorantha book as in previous editions. The important factor here is that Basmol was killed, and skinned, by Tada, This seemed to result in lions becoming extinct in Prax. But it doesn't seem to have stopped them wielding their magic at all. An argument could be made that Basmol died but Basmola did not or something similar?

Works for the Basmoli.

The wording I’m referencing, while I still believe it to be current for RQG, was first published in cults of Prax in 1978, definitely in the previous century... (Bind Ghost spell description). Humakti have always been (only) willing to bind people as ghosts who volunteer.

The Humakti generally do not consider ghosts as undead, but simply as dead who have made different choices. They do believe that being a ghost must be voluntary, and will free ghosts who remain. It’s explicit in the Bind Ghost spell description that they are volunteers. if the Humakti considered ghosts to be undead, it would be absurd for them to have the Bind Ghost spell, which they have always had.

There is one example in the bestiary of the wyter of a unit of magicians - She Who Strikes From Afar, wyter of a Lunar Minor Class unit. I personally found it very useful, enough to run a magical attack in game. i agree it would be nice to see an example of a conventional regimental wyter. There is a little information about Granite Phalanx in the GoG preview, but as a sub-cult of Polaris, no stats as a wyter. Grants the Morale Rune spell, which is a huge advantage. I suspect many regimental wyters do, or something similar. I’m increasingly thinking that many Humakti, if they know they are going to die for some reason, especially disease or poison or old age, volunteer to be bound as a ghost to their temple or regiment, and this way the wyter is additionally supported.

Wyters are, to me, not power gaming at all. They make powerful spirits and big magic not a pure power gaming thing, but about your relationship with community. I agree that clan and cult mechanics enrich the game.

My self-description as Lhankor Mhy is only half a joke - you can assume I've read pretty much every public thing written for HW/HQ/RQ (most editions) etc. I also play regularly, both HQ and RQ. For wyters, specific useful references, besides the references in RQG, RQG- bestiary, are: - for creating clan wyters in play, the Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes clan creation system. Also, the way in which wyters are used in HeroQuesting is informative - lending the support of the clan (in the form of the wyter) to heroquesters is a big decision, as it is a risk to the clan (but heroquests can also reward the whole clan). - for examples of clan wyters in play, The Coming Storm and the Eleven Lights. This also includes creation of a wyter. - for wyters in warfare, the Glorantha Sourcebook description of the Sartar Magical Union is very useful.

Because it's associated with a specific community and its spiritual practice, and explicitly directed by a 'high priest'. Often happens, if appropriate for the community. Look at the village spirit Kogui in the bestiary. But it will very much differ by the nature of the community and its founding. For Orlanthi clans or tribes, a heroic Orlanthi ancestor seems to be the most common form. But it is certainly not the only form - look at the Black Spear of the Colymar.

You can't magically express that power of community, which leaves the community magically vulnerable. Most notably, Temple guardians. But their inclination will mostly be to guard their temples. Organised military units will have regimental wyters as well.

Providing you don't get attacked by an actual magical force that might have their own wyter or other serious attack spirits. She Who Strikes From Afar is a fairly minor Lunar attack spirit, and has a power of 46 on Full Moon Day. So your example would make the difference between having a fighting chance to fight off a typical magical warfare attack, to being easily crushed.

I absolutely can.Many towns have stories of guardian spirits and such, even today but certainly historically, many of which are credited with multiple small daily interventions. Not far from me there is a town I have visited that is centred around a Benedictine monastery. We did a tour, and they told me about the time the town was threatened by a bush fire, and the Abbot took a portrait of the Sacred Virgin Mary out, and showed it the fire, and asked for help, and the wind changed and diverted the fire away as a result, and now the portrait is kept revered and credited with miracles. Sounds very wyter to me.

Yes, that is the basic tradeoff - but I think we very much differ on where the trade off points lie. You are talking about using 80% of a wyters power - at that level, I think you are essentially accepting that you have probably destroyed your community in its functional form, or at least medium term reduced it to that level, so you would never do it to 'win'. You do it to avoid annihilation when you have already lost. You might try to get together and re-POWer it - but you would be accepting that that outcome might likely never recur. Or the city is destroyed in its current form, and later survivors form a new social structure, with a new wyter, from the ruins, probably one that no longer has a Queen at all. If you reduce the wyter of a metropolis to one less powerful than an average ghost, you risk that alternative outcome. And those that the Queen depends on for power and support know that, and may judge her accordingly. Eg if you have reduced the wyter to one that weak, a wicked magician could easily destroy or capture it. A hostile foreign forced could take the city, and without the power of the wyter, the inhabitants might just let them.