Atgxtg

Elephant are barely killable without hit locations. You just need an impale and a 3D6+4 elephant gun. I think the difficult with firearms is that BRP sort of glosses over the most significant factor in firearm damage. Shot placement. We do have differernt levels of success but since only 20% of success are specials or better it isn't something that a character can control. One idea I was thinking of was to allow a character who tooke the called shot penalty to boost his damage. Instead of just shooting the elephant, aiming for the heart. THe same who be useful for something like a pocket pistol. Maybe rolling at half ability for aiming but getting an impale. NO, to show why there seems to be a split over firearm damage ratings. What can stop someone with hit locations and what can stop someone without are really too different things. From some of the posts I've been reading I starting to see that the RQ players and the CoC/Eleric players are really playing two different games, and I think that is partially responsible for some of the friction.

Quite true. About the only real reason why casualty rates were higher in the Ancient and Medieval world was that wholesale slaughter and massacres were more common. Any weapon can have a 100% mortality rate if you work at it. A spear thrust might even be more lethal than a .38 bullet. It makes a bigger wound and causes more bleeding. The same is true with the 50% difference in what it takes to drop someone due to hit locations. The main reason why I am adressing it now is that with more archaic weaponry the combat dynamic allows for defense in the form of a parry or dodge, with armor soaking up some of the damage. With firearms we have no body armor to speak of (okay, there were two companies that make flak vests during the Civil War, and a couple of improve stove-plate situations), and Dodge is usually of limited effect if any, depending on what BRP game you are running. Since "bang-your dead" isn't much fun to play. Especially when a player might not be able to do anything about it (like when the other guy has a higher DEX and Dodge doesn't work against bullets).

Jason, How will the tweaks and adjustments in BRP affect animal stats. Will a Bear or Horse have about the same STR, SIZ, hit points and damage as in RQ or CoC, or have the numbers been adjusted in some way?

Enpeze, I think I agree with him. Without either a hit location system or a major wound system the chances of dropping someone with a light pistol are close to nil. Even CoC5's "Shock" roll makes a big difference. I think a lot of these system disputes boil down to a gap between which derivative of RQ people have preferred over the years. Depending upon what game and which edition people play really determines what you rules say. Overall I think we are all just playing with different rulebooks. For instance, in CoC5, a guy with 15 hit points can risk shock by taking 8 or more points in one hit, so a 8 point hit is needed to be able to "Stop" someone, a 13 point hit needed for an auto-unconscious result (2 hp), and 15 points is needed for a kill. CoC1 doesn't have the "Stun" rule so 13 is the magic number. In RQ3, you can take someone out of the fight (for the most part) with a 5 point hit to the head or abdome or a 6 point hit to the chest. You can kill then with twice that. So, you can drop someone with 15hp in RQ3 with a 5 point hit, someone in CoC1 with a 13 point hit, and someone in CoC5 with a 8 point hit. To kill then you must do 15 points in CoC1 and COC5, but only 10 points in RQ. So RQ is potentially 50% more lethal than CoC. That's a big difference. I'm starting to think that the disputes over damage values comes down to this. THose who are RQ3 fans (c'est moi) are looking at the damages from a RQ perspective, while those coming from general HP/major wound games like SB ans CoC see the higher value. soltakss actually picked up on this awhile back, mentioning how he liked the two damage values (CoC and persumably RQ)that I gave the Peacemaker. THat wasn't my intention, but he was right. It is probably one reason why Badcat and I don't see eye to eye on firearm damages. It depends on the frequency of sudden death. Again I'm pointing to the difference in systems. For a guy with 12 hp the "instant death threshold" with hit locations is only 8 as opposed to 12 in CoC. For a guy with 18 hp the "IDT" is 12 as opposed to 18. Maybe the two sets of western damages is the right way to go, after all. Or some sort of damage class/sliding scale. So a 1D6 firearm in RQ could be a 1D10 in CoC or some such.

Somewhat. I also think it comes down to which derivative of BRP you are running and due to the lack of support from the rulebook about stat rolls that you mentioned. FOr instance, in RQ and Stormbringer stat rolls were not used much in the examples, and most of not all of their functions were replaced with skills. I don't see rolling Agility and Balance skill. Luck rolls never prop up in RQ adventures. Maybe they show up in CoC adventures. I saty there is something explicity wrong with the system when you eliminate category modfiers becuase stats have little meaning. Yes. I wouldn't sday that is becuase of my playing style so much as that was the style suggested by the way the rules were written. Remember idea rolls and the rest were something, perhaps the only thing that got added to RQ when RQ got stripped down for BRP. If you look at the rules for RQ and Stormbringer 1st edtion they don't exist. You may occasionally see some Statx5% or x3% or whatever rolls, but no specific Idea or Luck rolls. I think the differences are that the rules for RQ and SB1 go in one direction (make everything a skill) while the rules for CoC go in another (use stat rolls). So I think it breaks down to a difference between two similar systems. "atgxtg - One thing I don't like about CoC and most of Chaosium stuff based off of it is that except for hit points and damage bonus, you stats are meaningless. The statx5% rolls rarely came up, as there was usually a skill that replaced the stat roll. So if a character had a 13 or 17 Strength tended to make little difference. "

Ah. That is one thing about the net. Sometimes two people say the same thing differently and it takes time for them to notice. G. & D. Cook & Company This is correct. But I see BRP rather as skeleton and not as "world simulator" capable to simulate every situation. (like IMO the makers of Gurps see their 500p rulemonster) No, BRP provides the rule tools to simulate many situations but it does not prevent the players from time to time to use common sense for solving a problem and making house rules or adhoc rules. And I think that problems like "haunting injuries", gangrene etc. are falling in this cathegory. Only because they are not adressed yet in the BRP rules, this means not that they should not be part of a BRP game, especially a non-cinematic.

I uploaded a First Draft for some Old West style 'spot rules".

THat would be my favored way of handling it. I did something like that a few months back for a home brew BRP variant. I do not if others would like it though. What I did was for wounded characters roll to see how long they had before the wound did them in. The roll was 1D100+CON, and the time was dependent on severity of the wound. Minor wounds could be days, more serious wounds, hours, and then minutes. Proper treatment could prevent the fatality.

It isn't that BRP is too deadly to be historically accurate, it is that BRP is killing people too quickly to be historically accurate. The majority of people who have died in battle, actually died after the battle. Relatively few drop dead on the spot. And while there weren't that many "Western Shootouts" (the best count I've seen was 16, and there were some duels but they were a bit different), there is plenty of data available from the Civil War. Technically speaking gangrene killed more soldier than gunfire. In BRP once a wound has been inflicted, damage rolled, and the effects applied that particular "injury" is over. The player doesn't have to worry about it coming back to haunt him. There is little chance for a delayed fatality. Basically in BRP if you can get someone to a Doctor, the wound wasn't lethal in the first place. There is a bunch of info on terminal wound ballistics and it all points to dispelling the myth that guns usually kill right away. Based on real world data, especially with pistols. Instant kills are within the critical hit chance. Delayed kills, on the other hand are over 90%. That is, nearly any wound will kill you if you don't get it treated properly, the variable is really how long it takes to do so.

I'm interested. I'm sure other will be too, once they get a chance to stop by. Jason, any chance that you cost post some more on EBRP?

Okay, I'll try to point out what I mean by the stat values becoming "meaniningless". Nut there is no difference mechanically. I play an elf, duck, or dragon differently, and have the NPCs react differently. But I don't track a "DUC" stat for it. I do. Nearly all of them. The STR/SIZ Db formula is so wide that you either catch the D4 or not. Very few character catch the D6. SO it all boils down to having the D4 or not. If you have a 13, 14 or 16STR matter little. It is do you get the D4 or not. Few games have a DEX requirement at all. How "harsh" that requirement is depends on what version of the BRP rules you are using. Some prohibit use of weapons for those lacking the STR/DEX. Others just give a penalty. And not all version of BRP even use the min STR/DEX. As to how harsh the actual values are in game terms. Not very. Somone with average stats can wield most weapons. But what happens after you got the weapon? The STR and DEX don't matter. Does either stat get used much in play. No. Skills are. I doubt I've used them five times.

Cat, I said "in terms of setting and rules". It was Moorcock from whom games got things such a Law & Chaos from. And if you do look at the works of authors in the genre, including much of the work of the ones you mentioned, you didn't see too many heroes in heroic fantasy who didn't swing a sword. Twains work hardly would be considered Heroic Fantasy. I didn't say that they did not have an influence on fantasy, I an saying that is was Moorcock who gave us a hero, or actually an anti-hero who was the wizard, rather than the wizard being the villain of the piece. And it was Moorcock who opened the door for a lot of authors to write Heoric Fantasy with heroes outside of the BUrrough-Howard mold. But I said in terms of "settings and rules"-as in regard to RPGs. Consider just how many of the authors you listed have had RPGs written based on their works. Dickson had Dragon & the Sword written up for D&D. Jack Vance had his magic system used for the basis of D&Ds and eventually there was a Dying Suns RPG. As far as RPGs go, I'd probably put Fritz Lieber 3rd. Lhankmar seems to be always around in the RPG field.

It was like this. Back in the late 70s when RPGs were getting started, both Chasoium and TSR went to Moocock to ask for permission to use his Elric/Eternal Champion setting. Back in those early days, it was looked at more as flattery than as a business venture, and he let both companies use his setting for free, pretty much expecting a game or two. The contract was of the verbal agreement and handshake variety. TSR got stuff out of the gate first with the Deities and Demigods book, but eventually pulled it (and the Cthluhu Mythos stuff) when they became aware that Chaosium had a deal to produce some RPGs. Now in 30 years Moorcock was never paid a dime, err. 10p. He never expected that Chasoium would be producing Elric games for 30 years or that the hobby would turn into an industry, or even that the people who he made the deal with would no longer be the ones making the games. So last year he made a Deal with Mongoose and got some money. He also tried and apparently succeeded in getting Chaosium to stop producing Elric games. Personally as much as I prefer Chaosium over Mongoose, I have to say that after 30 years of ELric RPGs I think it is only fair if one of the people making money off of Elric is his creator and author. As for Moorcock's work. Well if not for Moorcock it is doubtful that we be playing RPGs today. His works were second only to Tolkien in terms of setting and rules, and he was a pioneer in breaking the "Fantasy Hero" stereotype. Up until Moorcock, your Hero in a "Swords & Sorcery" story (and most "Science Fiction Romances") was a big brawny guy, often a barbarian, who started off with nothing and worked his way up to being a king. Elric broke all those molds. No he didn't write a lot of his stuff in one sitting. What he did do was write a lot of the early Elric stuff for the Sci-Fi pulp magazines of the time. Prior to the late 60s or so a lot, if not most science fiction and fantasy stories were sold in anthology magazines. Sort of mini-pulp books. The original Eric stories were serialized in one such magazine, and published in regular installments. Moorcock actually killed Elric off rather quickly, then moved onto other things, only to be drawn back to Elric by the fans.

Do you do that with the Kingdoms in your fantasy campaign? Do you send your adventurers to an arctic environment and worry about the detail when they get there? I know a DM who does that. He couldn't figure out why the group stopped in mid-adventure and started backtracking the river that flowed from the sea to the mountains. We figured that the wizard we were chasing had to be responsible for a making water flow uphill. If you are running a campaign set in a location, like at a particular station or patrolling a certain sector of space, it is nice for the players to have the major star systems and planets worked out. World generation does have some perks. For one thing if you know a little science, it can go a long way to springing other adventure ideas. Things like where resources are, what stars can support life are all useful bits of info. Plus a lot of good adventures can be had when something happens that shouldn't. Like a world with a Earth-like climate being somewhere that it has no business being, like out past Saturn. Sadly in mos RPGs how far apart they are determines how long it takes to travel from one to the other. Not all RPGs use "jump" drives. If you are running something like Star Trek, where ships travel at multiples of the Speed of Light you need to know how far apart the system are. So you can tell how long it takes to get from Point A to Point B, or C, and from point B to C. If you are using a specific setting, like a Space Station or patrol sector then this is useful. If you are doing "Episode of the Week" then you can get away with making it up as you go along, until the PCs decide they want to go back to the planet with the green animal women. Probably the easiest solution for non-jump/hyperspace games is to just do up a "master table" of the area and write down all the distances/travel times. Then just refer to the chart. That's what I did for a couple of Star Trek campaigns. Most of the locations were mapped out and distances charted. Oops. Yeah like that. Pretty much like any other RPG there is a certain amount of detail that you need; then a certain amount that you want for color; then all the rest that you would like to have but don't have the time for. For most of my Sci-Fi campaigns I needed to know who was near whom, who like/hatred whom, and what they all had to play with, deatils for species and cultures, etc. Most of the tech stuff was for color. It is nicer to say "a Red Giant Star" than "Yeah, it got a sun." Some basic knowledge of science does help, though. Since if the GM doesn't have it and the players do, they might take a abnormality (like the Earth planet out past Saturn) as a plot hook rather than being something insignificant. For instance it is good to know what stars can't support habitable planets if your players know.

Generally the 2D maps get used because most players and GMs don't like figuring out distances with X, Y ans Z coordinates. And there are some other ways to do 3D maps other than a 2D map with +/- coordinates. There is graph paper made in 3 quarter perspective (diamonds) that can be used to give good depth.

I think Jason said there were 3 different options. I also thing everyone with the book is either busy ready or preparing for the holidays.

Yeah, D&D keeps the stat mods separate, so they are always a factor. Most other games do something similar. In CoC or worse SB5, INT is pretty much a throw away stat, unless you are a sorcerer. And APP simply is a throwaway stat. Speaking of APP, I think they should either do something more with it, or dump the stat entirely, and let players describe their characters appearance. One thing that might work would be to average stat rolls with skills. the old Star Trek RPG did that with combat skills. So you would average your 40 sword skill with your 60 DEX to get a 50% Attack rating. It's nice but too much math.

Oh yeah. No argument. It is just that such things are not guaranteed to prevent the other guy from shooting back before he drops dead. That is the real bitch in gunfights. Getting killed by the guy who you have already killed by who didn't have the good graces to fall over and die like he should have. Most wounds take time to kill you. Modern police forces training warns them that even if they shoot someone, they can expect the guy to be functional for a minimum of 10 seconds. Pretty much all the one hit stop% numbers you see are fictitious. Especially for handguns. In fact, pretty much all the "this weapon does have stopping power" case example over the years involve shooting at highly motivated/fanatical people who didn't drop when they got hit. If you look up real word data, from any era you will see that the vast majority of fatalities happen after the battle. In the modern era, survival rate from gunshots is over 98% if they can get the victim medical attention. I used to work in a trauma center, and I can only recall one or two people actually dying from their gunshot wounds. Some pretty good games use a WIL roll mechanic to handle things like stopping power. If we wanted to go that route in BRP we could require a Luck roll or match POW vs. the damage on the resistance table to see if the character can act. It really is mostly "Will he act" not "can he act".

Looks like a golden window for a supplment. Pretty much every RPG setting needs a couple of pages of Joe and Josephine Average. A rough rule of thumb would be: STR 10, CON 10, SIZ 13 (10 females), INT 13, POW 10, DEX 10, APP 10, EDU 13 Hit Points: 12 (10 females) Skills: Add 45% to one professional skill, 35% to another and 25% to the rest. Add 30% to any skill, 20% to any two skills, and 10% to any six skills.

Yup. That's why I was in the "hit locations make BRP Less deadly" camp. Even if someone is "gonna die" they usually have a few rounds where they can be saved through First Aid. Of course Major Wounds will do the same sort of thing for BRP.

The Firearms Table covering the 1873-1885 period has been uploaded and is available in the Downloads/Other section. This is the first draft, so people can look it over and see if it looks to be heading in the right direction, or if I need to adjust some numbers. Note that this is the "master" table, and that I plan to do a "handbook" with photos of the firearms and a bit more detail, as well as some explanation of some new terms, add-ons, and rules for fan-firing, etc. Most of the terms on the table are self-explanatory. But here is a little more info that will help. Damage (CoC): This is the weapon damage in Call of Cthulhu terms. Note that the weapon damages are slightly lower in the Old West, due to the use of blackpowder rather than nitrocellulose, and most weapons had lower pressures than their modern counterparts. Damage (rev); THis is an alternate Damage Value I'm been toying with. Attacks Per Round 1-2: Typically a Double Action revolver. Limited to one shot on the first turn, but allowed two shot thereafter. A 2* means that the shotgun can fire both shots in a round but suffers a -10% to the second shot for doing so due to excessive recoil. Era Cost: The price for the weapon "out west". Prices at the point of manufacture would be much lower. The Colt 68c Open Top Revolver could be order for as little as 68 cents from Sears & Roebuck, plus S&H (that P&P to those in the UK), assuming you have time to wait. Malf: Malfunction chance. Yeah these look high to me, but then so do the number in CoC. For the most part the older weapons are slightly less reliable than modern ones. There will be info on using certain high powered loads that do more damage but reduce the reliability of the weapon. Draw: This is the weapon's modifier to the shooter's Fast Draw skill, and will be used in "Draw" situations to determine who gets off the first shot. Useful for when a town just isn't big enough for the both of you. Con: This is the weapons modifier to the conceal skill of whoever is trying to carry the weapon unnoticed. Note that this is assuming that the character is wearing something that is capable of concealing the item. So if someone wants to "conceal" their Winchester Rifle they had better be wearing a longcoat, and keep it closed. Reload: The first number it the number of combat rounds it takes to fully reload and ready the weapon for use. The number in the parenthesis tis the time it takes to open and empty the weapon plus the number of bullets you can reload in a round plus the number of rounds it takes to ready the weapon for firing). The second value is useful for when your gun is empty, but you need to load a round or two fast, like when someone is running at you waving a knife. Note the typo for the Colt Pocket Pistols. The full reload time for the Open Top pistol should be 10 rounds, and the New Line 9 rounds. I'll fix this on the sheet when Triff gets back and can delete the original. Sorry. Weight: is the Weight in kg, rounded off to the nearest 0.5 increment as in RQ ENC. The Colt Navy, Peacemaker, Frontier, and the S&W American can all have stocks attached to then. Stocks cost $5 and increase the base range by 15m (20 for the buntline special), but reduces Draw and Con by 10%. The Sharps Buffalo rifle was often fitted with a tack, or peep site that aids in long distance shooting. Tack sites cost $4, and increase the base range from double to triple when used with precision aiming. Oh, yeah, I almost forgot. The blank section of the sheet mean that the stats are identical to the ones above it. This is for weapons like sawed off shotguns or pistols with a alternate caliber cartridge that are otherwise identical to the original weapon. How's that for a start?

I've got a second formula that also seems to fit the data points given in CoC. It uses a cube function rather than a square root. AP=Cube root (mm) Steel x5.14 Concrete x1.69 Hardwood: x1 Both the square a cube root formulas have advantages. The cube one seems to fit the required thickness for submarine hulls better. Or I might just use the sub formula for APs. That is AP= Cube Root (mm*100) Steel x1 Concrete x0.35 Hardwood: x0.20 I'm also playing around with a few more HP options. I'm trying to fit the values in CoC better. Either a tech era factor and/or factoring in the size of the Engine (something like +5 HP/cubic liter in the 1920s, and about 10HP/cubic liter c.2000, or maybe just uses the Engine L as the base for the Engine HPs. ). One thing I wondering is if we need total Hit points for a vehicle. Unlike a person, a vehicle doesn't "bleed to death" and unless some vital is taken out, it will continue along. Shooting out the lights or tires doesn't have the same effect as shooting a man in the eyes or feet. If we just limited total HP to whole area attacks like explosions or driving off cliffs, then the vehicles would be pretty tough indeed, only stopping after their engine, proplsion or controls got shot out. My goal is to get it so someone can take a real vehicle plug the stats into a couple of formulas and get BRP game values that are reasonable enough for game play. I'm nearly there with a rough draft. Not surprisingly Tank and Battleships with their heavy armor are the big sticking points. The armor sets the damage range for the big guns, in turn setting the scale for the weapons in between. I figure that if I can get a Kawasaki, Ford Escort, Ferrari, M113, M1A2 and Iowa-class Battleship to work out then the ratings should hold up for anything in between.