M Helsdon

As the entire Earth in Glorantha is composed of Gata and other goddesses, a single piece of earth might hold a very very tiny and weak spirit, with little magical power, no intellect or consciousness, but with magical potential. No, through the roof of the dome during services (see Sun County page 25). If you are not an initiate and are inside with the congregation, whether you can see the Sun or not is the least of your problems. The domes of Domanand were shattered, not melted, so the mechanism of their destruction is unclear.

On the human scale, the Gloranthan cosmos seems to work much as our Bronze Age/early Iron Age ancestors believed their world worked. They knew the rule of thumb rules for building structures that wouldn't fall down (and some Mesopotamian law codes had pretty dire penalties for a builder whose work fell down and injured or killed someone) but also knew it was necessary to make sacrifices and bury figurines of the gods to supplement the purely physical construction. So a Gloranthan human will use both sets of 'rules', the 'physical' and the 'magical', though even in Third Age Glorantha the distinction between the two is blurred, because everything has a spirit - even a mud brick. Sun Dome domes are innately magical because the congregation inside can see the Sun through the solid dome. And the domes aren't indestructible, as the many ruined domes at Mirin's Cross demonstrate. In our world corbelled domes go back to the Bronze Age, with the Treasury of Atreus perhaps the best known. The Persians also inherited dome building from Mesopotamia, and they invented the squinch, though they didn't build impressive domes until the late Iron Age. The interior of the Treasury of Atreus:

My understanding is that it's a matter of scale. The point where powerful spirits are gods, and minor gods are spirits is very blurred. As a deity with temples, priests and worshippers, Pavis is the 'god' and community 'spirit' and guardian for his city. As the founder of his city, his worship is necessary for its continued survival. For a really powerful city god, there's Tondiji down in Pamaltela with cults that are major religions elsewhere, such as Orlanth, Ikadz, Malkion, Ompalam, Pamalt, and Varama the Sun all subservient to him in his great temple.

Black Galley The unireme Black Galleys of the trolls of the Jrusteli Islands are both traders and raiders, and may be encountered almost anywhere. A galley has 24 rowing benches to a side, each with three oarsmen, with two steering oars aft. It has three masts. The vessel is named for the black pitch which coats its hull. Many at the oars are undead, capable of rowing almost indefinitely, until they fall apart. When the chained slave rowers die, they continue to serve at the oars as undead. A galley has a crew of five officers, 20 sailors, and up to 144 rowers Accommodation for passengers is either on the rowing benches or in deckhouses at the stern and bow. During the day, the trolls rig the sails as a tarpaulin to keep off the worst of the sun, preferring to sail at night. Black Galley Length 138 ft. Beam 24 ft. outrigger 17 ft. hull Draught 6 ft. Speed Knots Duration Sail: 3-8 Night Oars: Maximum 9 20 minutes Cruise 4-5 Indefinitely

Curiously, I am also using Bronze Age wrecks, and cargo manifests... Where does it state that grain is a cargo that Esrolia ships overseas? There's considerable difference between riverine barges and sea transport. Grain is missing from the list of Holy Country exports on page 470 of the Guide. You'd better inform the archaeologists studying Bronze Age Ugarit and Byblos... And then there's the Uluburun shipwreck, constructed from timber not far from those cities, or no further than Cyprus. See above. Actually, Joerg, I've made use not only of the text in the Guide, but also the pictures there, the pictures in the Gloranthan Sourcebook, and Kalin's art for the King of Sartar comic. This will come as a great shock to the marine archaeologists working on the wrecks in the English Channel, as the finds support the tin trade with the Mediterranean. I would never have guessed. Uh huh. But not to me. Please read the list of the Holy Country exports in the Guide. Just the material in the Guide, HeroQuest Glorantha and the comic... There's quite a detailed description of an Esrolian trireme in HeroQuest: Glorantha, and the close similarity to a Greek trireme is apparent. That's on Earth, not on Glorantha. Tidal beaching in the Mediterranean wasn't so reliant upon tides because they have a very low amplitude. See the illustrations in the Glorantha Sourcebook. They have an uncanny resemblance to Phoenician biremes as depicted by the Assyrians. Because the terrestrial equivalents were built using the carvel method. To distinguish them from the Western (and Northern) clinker-built ships. Because it was fun. Cf HeroQuest: Glorantha. The Greeks didn't obtain ship-building from the Egyptians. Um, Jeff seems to have defined the ships in the artwork and also noted that there was access to ancient designs. Um, no. A classic bireme and trireme aren't significantly different in size and space available; a trireme added an extra level of rowers in the outriggers with no appreciable increase in length. It therefore had a third again the motive power in combat, outclassing biremes, which is why they subsequently fulfilled lesser roles. After the trireme, there was an arms race for every larger ships with more oars, so that the quadrireme replaced the trireme, and then even larger ships appeared, culminating in Ptolemy's mad '40' which had 4,000 rowers - utterly impractical, if only because it would have taken many hours for the crew to board the ship. It was a demonstration of power and wealth, and never fought. The Romans and the Carthaginians fought their wars using quinqueremes (the Romans used a few triremes in the 1st Punic War as well), and other large ships. The Roman ships stationed in Britain and the Continent included triremes and biremes, modified with higher sides and bows to cope with conditions in the North Sea and Channel. Terminus Est.

Where? Pretty much covered by bales. This would be too much micro-management and detail for the topic. US measurements are used in most modern Glorantha books. I carefully translate everything from metric... to inches, feet, yards, pounds.

With the probability that this is entirely or partially, wrong, I've endeavored to define ships, based on material in the Guide, Sourcebook and King of Sartar comic: Trireme The characteristic warship of the southern Genertelan coasts is the trireme. Its construction involves a carvel-built shell of planks held together with pegged mortise-and-tenon joints forming the hull built up from the keel and stem- and stern-posts, the internal ribbing then fitted to this hull to reinforce it. Four to six heavy ropes are stretched from stem to stern to strengthen the hull; these are slacked off or removed when the vessel is out of the water and put on and placed under tension just before the trireme goes into the water again. Twisting these cables to the proper tension requires the efforts of a team of sailors. Holy Country ships use pitch from the Shadow Plateau applied to the hull to make it watertight. This gives it the distinctive black color, though the upper parts are often brightly painted. A trireme has three banks of oars, the lowest bank (the hold-rowers) emerging from oar-ports through leather sleeves to hinder the taking on of water, the middle bank (the thwart-rowers) from under the outrigger, and the upper bank (the stool-rowers) fixed to rowlocks through the outrigger extending beyond the side of the hull. Each oar is rowed by one oarsman, sitting on a leather cushion. The oars of the stool-rowers, being the furthest from the water, are slanted down at the steepest angle. As the only one able to see the oars striking the water, a stool-rower is responsible for synchronizing the oars of the two rowers below him. There are 27 oarsmen each side at the lowest level, 27 either side at the middle level, and 31 on each side at the top level (where there is room for two additional rowers, fore and aft, where the hull is shallowest). The oarsmen are rarely armed. A light deck, to port and starboard, protects the upper bank of oarsmen, and provides fighting platforms running fore and aft. This fighting deck is often protected with a bulwark hung with shields. Holy Country naval tactics emphasize ram attacks which favor speed and maneuver. Boarding the enemy with heavily-armed troops is a secondary tactic. Ten to twenty marines are the usual complement, with the rest of the deck crew consisting of the captain, a helmsman using two steering-oars by means of a transverse tiller, a bow officer, shipwright, and the bosun who commands the oarsmen, a drummer or flute player, a signaler, and deckhands to handle the sails. The number of marines is low because too many people moving on deck threatens the vessel’s stability on the open sea and reduces the efficiency of the rowers. Some are stationed in the stern and act as bodyguards for the captain and helmsman. Others are at the prow to act as boarders. In calmer sheltered waters, such as Choralinthor Bay, the number of marines aboard might be increased to as many as forty, though risking a reduction in speed. Other navies, less adept at ramming, emphasize grappling and boarding. Their triremes are of heavier construction and carry more marines. Normally the ship makes use of a main square sail rigged from the main yard amidships for propulsion, and a smaller ‘boat’ sail at the prow to aid steering. Warships lower their mast and sails before going into battle. Ships are protected by magical guardians worshiped by the crew. Trireme Length 120 ft. Beam 18 ft. outriggers 13 ft. hull Draught 3 ft. Speed Knots Duration Sail: 3-7 Daylight Oars: Maximum 9 20 minutes Fast Cruise 4-5 3 hours Slow Cruise 3 9 hours Logistics: Warships Warships have very specific requirements for rope, timber and canvas. Whilst basic repairs can be carried out with the supplies and tools carried aboard, stowage space is limited. A trireme, for example, generally carries no more than thirty spare oars. Any significant damage or maintenance must be carried out ashore, often with the vessel out of the water. Supplies for the crew are also limited, with only food and water for a few days carried. Triremes put into shore for the crew’s midday meal (if feasible) and at night. A trireme crew requires around 560 lbs. of food and nearly a 100 gallons of water a day. As these vessels are built for speed, not carrying capacity, they can only remain at sea for a limited time. Both triremes and penteconters are of a sufficiently light build that they can be drawn up on a convenient beach. These vessels often require a reinforced keelplank to prevent pebbled and rocky beaches wearing through the keel. Warships are reliant upon supply ships or bases for longer periods. Land bases in proximity of the fleet is essential. For the Wolf Pirates, since 1605, the Three Step Islands have proven suitable for their raids on the coasts of the Solkathi and Rozgali Seas. Bireme In addition to the sea-going trireme, the Holy Country fleet included biremes. These vessels have two banks of oars, and a single sail and mast, lowered before combat, and a cutwater which can be used as a ram, attached to the hull by bronze nails. This permits the ram to become detached if it becomes embedded in an enemy ship. The elevated upper-works running the length of the ship are mounted on stanchions above the oarsmen and include screens and shields to protect the archers and priests who are the principal armament of the ship. This superstructure gives the marines an advantage in height, but also makes the vessel susceptible to crosswinds, hindering its maneuverability and making it vulnerable to capsizing. As a result, their use is restricted to the calm waters of Mirrorsea Bay. Bireme Length 70 ft. Beam 11 ft. Draught 3 ft. Speed Knots Duration Sail: 2-5 Daylight Oars: Maximum 6 20 minutes Fast Cruise 3-4 2 hours Slow Cruise 2 4 hours Penteconter The characteristic ship of the Wolf Pirates is a fast and narrow clinker-built fifty-oared sailing ship used for ramming and boarding. In clinker construction, the keel is laid down first, with a heavy shaped keelson above it, and the raked stem- and stern-posts attached, with a pointed forefoot sheathed in bronze as a ram. Vertical ribs are added, and then the shell of overlapping plank strakes, starting from the keelson and working upwards, fixed with bronze rivets and later caulked with tarred wool. Crossbeams brace the structure and are used as benches for the single bank of oarsmen. Twenty-five rowlocks are attached to each gunwale by wooden pegs. Each oar is worked by one rower. A rail along the gunwale is a common feature. High planked half-decks fore and aft provide fighting platforms protected by latticework panels. Limited storage space lies beneath them, including ladders stowed save when beaching the craft. Some of these wolfships have a central gangway running fore and aft, but leaving the oarsmen’s heads exposed. The mast is set in a socket in the keelson, with a single square sail rigged from the yardarm; the sail is furled immediately prior to battle. These ships are very fast with the wind behind them; they are designed to operate under oars and sail. Some penteconters are uniremes with a single level of rowers, but their great length makes them unsuitable for the open seas. Ships become increasingly fragile and unstable the greater the length-to-beam ratio. Wolf Pirate vessels are biremes, with two banks of oars on each side; the lowest bank (the bench-rowers) of 14 oars and above them the upper bank (the beam-rowers) of 11 oars. This layout gives them speed, acceleration and rate of turning superior to an ordinary penteconter. They approach merchant vessels under sail and oars, at twice the maximum speed of a merchant ship. Nearing their victim, the beam-rowers ship their oars, furl the sail, and act as reinforcements for the boarding party. The use of sails and oars also permits the penteconter to outrun warships when it has the wind behind it. The vessel is steered by a large deep rudder at the starboard aft side. In addition to the fifty oarsmen, who are all armed, the deck crew consist of the captain, helmsman, bow officer, shipwright, champion and the bosun. Two or three warriors may also be aboard to be ready to lead a boarding action. Pirates usually have diverse weapons and armor, according to personal preference and wealth. The helmsman is equipped with a long spear, which they use to protect the ship when beached or to aid the warriors in the first stages of a boarding action. Wolf Pirate penteconters are protected by fierce magical figureheads on the prow (typically a demonic wolf), the magical guardians and protectors of the ship, worshiped by the crew. These galleys are capable of remarkably quick bursts of speed and rapid maneuvers. Battle tactics are customarily ramming and holding fast to the enemy vessel and then boarding – with the number of warrior rowers giving a numerical advantage. When conducting a raid, a penteconter is beached stern-first to permit a quick getaway. Penteconter (‘bireme’) Length 70 ft. Beam 10 ft. Draught 2.5 ft. Speed Knots Duration Sail: 3-7 Daylight Sail and oars: 9-10 20 minutes Oars: Maximum 9 15 minutes Cruise 4-5 2 hours Merchantman The merchant ships of the southern coast of Genertela are oval in shape, of carvel construction, and propelled by sail. The vessels are partially or completely decked, with a hold below carrying a cargo of approximately 74,800 lbs. usually carried in bales, barrels and amphorae. Some merchant ships are much larger, but only a rich House can afford to build and maintain them. Most merchantmen carry only a single square sail; some have a foremast carrying a smaller foresail, often used to aid steering. Lacking a keel, the sails can only be used when the winds are favorable. Esrolian ships may have a curved sternpost in the shape of a goose, the sacred bird of Imarja, the source of the Four Esrolian Virtues. The ship has a flat bottom, to allow the ship to be grounded at low tide for loading and unloading, when a harbor is not available. The stability of the vessel is enhanced with magic. The hull is usually lined with black pitch and a very thin sheets of lead to provide protection from worms and other marine creatures. This permits the ship to stay in the water throughout the sailing season, unlike a warship, but increases its weight and reduces its maximum speed. These ships are often used as support and supply for trireme squadrons. The ship is guided with two steering-oars with a transverse tiller. It may carry oars for use when the sea is smooth and there is no wind, but carrying enough oarsmen to propel the ship at any speed is uneconomical. The crew numbers six or seven, including the captain. Most of these ships include a small shrine to Dormal at the bow or stern. Roundship Length 40 ft. Beam 11 ft. Draught 4-6 ft. Speed Knots Duration Sail: 2-5 Daylight

It depends upon the amount of cargo, what it was, and how many people were involved. If you take a fairly standard merchant tub, carrying 74,800 lbs. of cargo and assume 'standard' cargo types: Logistics: Cargo Ship and barge cargo is transported in bales, sacks, and amphorae all no larger than one or two men can lift, and barrels which can be rolled by two men. These are the basic 'units' of cargo. Amphorae and barrels come in a variety of sizes. Bales, sacks and amphorae are of a size that they can be carried by a ship, boat, cart, donkey or mule. By volume, a standard cargo amphora holds around 6 gallons and a full amphora (containing olive oil, or wine) weighs around 110 lbs., around half of which is the material of the container. The additional weight of an amphora makes it unsuitable for transporting water and cheap wine over land (an empty amphora weighs 50 to 60 lbs.). Instead, leather water skins or bottles are used. A standard barrel holds approximately 38 gallons, weighing about 317 lbs. Wooden barrels bound together with metal hoops are stronger than fired clay, weigh far less and can be turned on their side and rolled. Barrels cannot be easily transported on pack animals but can be loaded onto carts and wagons. Bales and sacks weigh around 70 lbs. If you decide how many of the crew and how many shore-side helpers there are, you can roughly calculate the load/unload time.

The Babylonians did division by multiplying a number by its inverse, something their use of the sexagesimal system may have helped, with math texts going back a very long time.

The illustrations in the Guide and the Glorantha Sourcebook all show spoked wheels, which isn't surprising as the spoked wheel dates back to the 20th century BC!

Curious. The Hanseatic Cog did not exist in the Bronze Age, or the early Iron Age. No Viking knorrs or longships in the Bronze Age, or early Iron Age... What grain ship? Are you referring to the Roman grain ships? If so, there were none in the Bronze Age or early Iron Age. Large quantities of grain were not moved by merchant ship, until Roman times. From the evidence of Bronze Age and early Iron Age wrecks, some grain was transported, but not in enormous quantities. Captains of the period needed to know of safe shelters every ten miles or so. Merchant ships tended to load fresh water wherever available and wherever they traded. You seem to have lost sight of the fact this thread is about the same merchant ships used by the Phoenicians and Greeks, and in Glorantha by Esolia. I've listed timber; marble however was not transported in large quantities in the Bronze Age or early Iron Age. Fascinating, no doubt, but irrelevant here. Actually, in Maniria as in the rest of Glorantha, and in our Bronze Age and early Iron Age, long distance trade caters to expensive necessities, such as metals, and expensive prestige items for the elite. This is detailed in the Guide, pages 469-470. There is no major trade in foodstuffs, save prestige items such as spices. Even short distance trade in foodstuffs is limited; there are major risks in transporting grains by sea, as in bulk it can settle, affecting the stability of the ship, and there's a danger of dust explosions. Even if transported in sacks it can shift, and if it gets wet can swell, endangering the integrity of the vessel, as the increasing volume can push at the hull, causing it to split. There were numerous harbors in Bronze Age Crete. They are where traders would trade, not the palaces. For example, the Minoan center of Palekastro was close to the sheltered beach/harbor of Chiona. Many miles from any coastline... Firstly, there are no massive Roman giant grain-barge sized ships carrying grain at sea in Glorantha. Secondly, the use of small vessels is part of the Bronze Age/Early Iron Age feel of Glorantha. There are no human bulk traders. Where, precisely, is this stated? The reality is that seafarers need safe stopping (and potential trading places) every ten miles or so along a coastline, in the event of bad weather. These square-sailed ships must either shelter (near shore) or run (on the open seas). Grain barges are large (and there probably aren't any in Glorantha, save on rivers, and in our ancient history, the largest barges weren't larger than these small trade ships). None of the human ships of Genertela are very large. Except the Mediterranean is the model for most Genertelan ships - even a Wolf Pirate penteconter is more like a Hemiolia than a longship or any other Baltic vessel (other than probably in construction). Glorantha has tides, albeit fairly slow ones. Getting in close enough to shore to load and unload without harbor facilities. Most of these vessels are too small to carry skiffs or lighters. You are fixating on ships carrying significant amounts of cargo, when in the actual Bronze and early Iron Age, most merchant ships were small. Same goes for human ships along the southern coasts of Genertela. There are no large ships, no anachronistic xebecs or cogs. You need to read about actual sites. Examples are Mount Batten, St. Michaels Mount, Burgh Island, Hengistbury Head, and the Erme esturary. Hengistbury Head, for example, despite being a wide beach with a headland, was a major port in the Bronze Age and in the Iron Age for the tin trade and for importing wine from the Continent even before the Romans arrived to do a hostile takeover. Yes, a major trade port with no quayside. YGWV, but it doesn't define the realities of Bronze and Early Iron Age trade, or the trade patterns detailed in the Guide.

One major reason for limiting the strangeness, at least in human cultures, is that it makes the setting less accessible to newcomers. Whilst it is 'cool' that most metals are derived from the bones of dead gods, and iron was manufactured by dwarves and is now mined where large quantities of Iron Mostali and Iron Constructs died, it doesn't detract from the fact that these metals are recognizable. Weird magical technologies should mostly be kept to the 'periphery' - non-humans, ancient civilizations, powerful entities etc. for both accessibility and mystery. The use of metals (wherever they come from), stone, leather, bone are all relatively mundane (even if they are sometimes worked with low-level magics). Glorantha is a world where magic is (mostly imperceptibly) winding down with every Age, as magic decays in the face of entropy. The Magic Goes Away meme. With the Hero Wars there are going to be massive magical cataclysms, as the pre-Time disasters reoccur on a 'smaller' scale, much as in Greek Myth, the Trojan War resembled the actual Dark Age in the Mediterranean that swept away most of the great powers of the Bronze Age.

Obviously, you are unaware of the history of the flat-bottomed ships which are the basis of the Esrolian 'tubs'. Very few actual ports as you classify them existed in the ancient world; instead most were safe anchorages where a merchant ship could come to shore and load and unload. Transporting goods from such 'harbors' was vastly more efficient than moving goods by land, by a factor of ten times the speed and roughly the same reduction in cost. This was the case in Bronze Age Europe (Mediterranean and in the north) and true in many places for much of the Iron Age. Goods moved by sea were often bulk cargos of, for example, trade metals, and prestige items such as wine, spices, aromatics, olive oil, textiles, honey, wool, resins (including of the poppy), certain minerals, dyes, precious animal skins, hides, sometimes wood (because even if wood is available near by it may not be the right sort - for instance the making of spear, arrows, ships, often requires specific types of wood, and barrels are also best made from certain types which do not grow everywhere), some manufactured high status items such as weapons, metal ware, ceramics. In Glorantha, trade metals such as copper, tin and iron are significant trade items. In the ancient world grain was only transported in bulk between Egypt and Rome, and that was a major exception. You might try reading a little on the subject, as you seem unaware of the realities of trade in the Bronze and pre-Roman Iron Age.

Well, we know cranes are mentioned in King of Sartar as being a 'recovered knowledge', and there are numerous mentions of ballista and other devices. It seems safe to assume that humans in Glorantha are aware of historical technologies up to around the 3rd or 4th century BC. Magic, whilst it augments technology or provides non-technological solutions, isn't 'free' but requires time, effort and 'power', so whether a technological approach or a magical approach is used depends upon available resources, including magic. For instance, Disruption spells can kill your opponent, but if you are skilled with a sword, you can do it potentially faster with a physical weapon (of course the making of your sword may or may not have involved magical rites). The God-King could raise an entire city with magic, but the majority of humans don't have that capability, and build stone by stone, brick by brick - they may strengthen their constructions with magic, but that isn't a given. Of course, the memes of Glorantha are myth and magic, and not technological, so the rate of technological innovation is slow or non-existent. Even if a culture has the necessary tools and technology it won't necessarily use them in ways that are obvious to us (with the benefit of hindsight and centuries of engineering solutions). For example, the Romans had everything they needed to make wheelbarrows, which are a pretty low-tech multiplier of productivity, but they didn't. Instead it seems to have been thought of first in China around the 1st century, but didn't arrive in Europe until the 12th century! Some claim there were wheelbarrows in Classical Greece, but the evidence is sparse, and even if they were, they had no impact. And the Romans had all the technology to make bicycles... except perhaps the tyres: wheels, gearing, etc. were all available to them. I forget where I encountered it, but once read an amusing article about Roman legionaries cycling along their roads... Almost all Gloranthan cultures have no mindset of technical innovation, with strong reasons to avoid dangerous changes, so people do things as they have always done. If cranes were used by the ancestors, then they are probably still in use, somewhere. Everyone jumped on Dormal's rites to permit sailing at sea, but only because people remembered being able to do this.

Kindly recall that the Atlas only shows the larger settlements. The majority of ports are much smaller, thus requiring the use of ships able to come very close to shore. Heortland is a plateau fronted by a forbidding coastline of marsh and cliffs, and the number of places for ports along the coast is restricted.

Cargo was mostly loaded and unloaded by hand. Cranes were used by the Romans and Greeks (mostly human powered) but I wouldn't expect to find them in Glorantha except perhaps are the biggest and richest port cities, if at all. As previously noted, cargo was transported in bales, amphorae or barrels, all no larger than one or two men could lift, and these would be the basic 'unit' of cargo. Ancient units were of a size that they could be carried by a ship, boat, cart, or donkey or mule. As a volume, one amphora is equivalent 26 litres and a full amphora (containing olive oil, or wine) weighs around 50 kg/110 lbs, around half of which is the material of the container. Grain was transported in sacks weighing 31.5 kg/70 lbs. Size of the boat? Depends upon the river, and to a lesser degree the cargo. Obviously every river boat going upstream has to be poled or rowed, or, if practical, hitched for towing, by animals or people. This is when the portage of goods becomes more expensive, and why river boats were often used to move goods downstream, returning upstream empty or lightly loaded. So the size of the river boats depends upon the width and depth of the river, and then how many oars and/or poles are used. So a river boat might carry only a few 'units' or cargo or several. A small barge might carry a cargo of 19,800 lbs.; a very large barge up to 74,800 lbs., about the same as a modest sea-going vessel, but the usual problems of propulsion against the current applies. A smaller one-oarsman boat might carry 300 kgs/660 lbs.

Not easily, beyond the river mouth, unless many oarsmen were hired, or it could sail close enough to the bank to be pulled along by oxen or other animals ashore by rope. A 'tub' is reliant upon a favorable wind, and whilst its draught would allow it to sail in a navigable river a fair distance upstream, it doesn't have the propulsion to overcome the current. These ships can't tack into the wind. Most river boats are far smaller; in ancient times the largest (in Roman times) was smaller than the Kyrenia having about two-thirds of the carrying capacity. A single horse or ox can pull about 250 times the load it can on land when hitched to a barge, a team being practical. For the Kyrenia, which was larger than the tub I detailed, you'd probably require a team of at least four or six animals (load of cargo plus vessel). Horses are unlikely to be used in this way, oxen more likely, and tame bison, and the usual limits on speed come into effect: if there isn't a good road beside the river (and this is probably the case) a team of oxen could pull the ship about four miles a day, depending upon the strength of the current. Bison and oxen could only work for five hours before becoming exhausted (you'd need multiple teams to make more speed). If the bank becomes impassable, so that there isn't firm footing for the animals, then you can only try to row or pole upstream, and this is going to be very slow work, if at all practical. Otherwise, you'd have to rely upon magic, such as summoning an elemental to push the ship upstream, (most effectively a water elemental, less effectively an air elemental to fill the sails) for long enough to get where you are going. The Romans used oared supply boats, smaller than the Kyrenia, with reduced cargo capacity and needing around twenty oarsmen. Being military vessels the economic limits on merchants didn't apply, and they tended to be used only in the lower reaches of a river, where it was wider and the current downstream reduced. This is why ancient ports were mostly situated on the coast or very near the mouth of a river. Getting a substantial cargo ship upstream is very hard work. For your trip to Pavis, sailing one of these ships very far upriver isn't going to be practical, even in the season when the river might be high enough to allow it passage. Your PCs will have to transfer to river boats.

My own, based upon real ancient ships (including the decking - see also the pictures above). One of the best examples of this sort of vessel is the Kyrenia ship, which is a little larger. We don't know the extent if its decking, so you'll find recreations with full and partial decking. Nevertheless, pitch and lead sheets were used on real ancient ships as far back as the 4th century BC. Copper sheeting in our world dates only to the 18th century, so would be highly anachronistic. The use of lead in the Holy Country seems very likely given the availability of the metal from trolls. Side swords? Ah, you mean leeboards, which date in China to around the 8th century, and were brought to Europe by the Portuguese and Dutch in the 16th century. Anachronistic. Triremes could use their sails, but on 'patrol' or 'escort' they are useless as they take time to take down for action. In fact, most ancient fleets travelling from place to place made, on average, only about thirty miles a day (about 3-4 knots). With favorable winds, supply ships could keep up, which is why, instead, warships relied upon supply depots supplied by merchantmen. Small requirements - someone has to pay for the extra crew, rendering the ship uneconomical. You'd best look at a map...of Glorantha, and of the ancient Mediterranean. Also most places these ships traded with didn't have 'ports' with quaysides, which is the reason the draught was shallow to permit the vessel close into shore. It's based on some real ships of the ancient world, which are the template for the Gloranthan 'tub'.

Merchantman The merchant ships of the southern coast of Genertela are oval in shape, of carvel construction, and propelled by sail. The vessels are completely decked, with a hold below carrying a cargo of approximately 74,800 lbs. usually carried in bales, barrels and amphorae. Some merchant ships are much larger, but only a rich House can afford to build and maintain them. Most merchantmen carry only a single square sail; some have a foremast carrying a smaller foresail, often used to aid steering. Lacking a keel, the sails can only be used when the winds are favorable. Esrolian ships may have a curved sternpost in the shape of a goose, the sacred bird of Imarja, the source of the Four Esrolian Virtues. The ship has a flat bottom, to allow the ship to be grounded at low tide for loading and unloading, when a harbor is not available. The stability of the vessel is enhanced with magic. The hull is usually lined with very thin sheets of lead to provide protection from worms and other marine creatures. This permits the ship to stay in the water throughout the sailing season, unlike a warship, but increases its weight and reduces its maximum speed. These ships are often used as support and supply for trireme squadrons. The ship is guided with two steering-oars with a transverse tiller. It may carry oars for use when the sea is smooth and there is no wind, but carrying enough oarsmen to propel the ship at any speed is uneconomical. The crew numbers six or seven, including the captain. Most of these ships include a small shrine to Dormal at the bow or stern. Roundship Length 40 ft. Beam 11 ft. Draught 4-6 ft. Speed Knots Duration Sail: 2-5 Daylight

I've seen the duck drawings, but not linked to the identity here.

No, this isn't a discussion of the psychology of gaming or world creation. At least, not for me. All three are different lens on the same material, though given that each belongs to a different generation and style of gaming, it isn't, for me, practical to compare and contrast them. In RQ2 (and 3) there was relatively little 'community support' because with the exception of Trollpak and Griffin Mountain, the wider social obligations of adventurers was a bit fuzzy. No context, no consequences. That's because there was relatively little material available - just four boxed sets, a large book and adventure books. Perhaps if the Sartarpak had come out, things would have been different. When I was running my game, I had no access to Wyrms Footnotes or any fanzines and had to try to get my players to realize that if they acted like bandits then the local law enforcement would start to hunt them (but I didn't know that Sartar was based on tribes). I haven't played in any Glorantha game for nearly two decades, so my take is based on published material and the historical periods which Glorantha (at least in central Glorantha) appears to emulate to some degree . As for being an authority - nope, authorities have authority, I'm mostly a collator. I very much doubt that my collation will ever see print, though there may be a few pieces drawn from it in print 'soon', one of which will draw severe flak. It's a pity I can't share my 'book' as there's plenty of opinion in there, as most of it is written as though by someone in the 5th or 6th Age (who has texts, and archaeological material from the 3rd Age, and who treats the Hero Wars as if they might have really happened), but there's too much copyright infringement in it to let it loose without permission. I've had a few messages from Chaosium staffers to share it with specific people. Never seen it. I've worked through some of the old discussions (looking for material, but not finding much I could use), and some it seemed to turn pretty nasty and toxic at times. Interestingly, there are at least four perspectives on Gloranthan warfare, at least warfare in central Glorantha. If those can be quantified and generalized, they are Storm, Solar, Husunchen/hunter-gatherer and Nomadic. There's major tension between those, especially the contest between Solar and Storm, which might be simplified into uniformity versus individualism, and you can see those in the two formations most commonly associated with them: phalanx versus heroic combat/shield-wall. Very different concepts of honour, duty, and the relationship between leaders and followers. Moon throws an entirely new spanner into the works, though Lunar warfare is based in the foundation of Solar warfare... Of course, within those broad generalisations there are major differences and complications, because despite being Lunar, many Provincial regiments still fight in the manner of Storm, and both Solar/Lunar and Storm (at least in Dragon Pass) are both urbanized cultures. Sartar put in motion the creation of a centralized state, composed of more rural communities, but the principality he and his descendants were building suffered a near terminal case of Outside Context Problem, to borrow from Iain M. Banks. There's a major distinction that must be made between the nature of warfare waged by states and by less settled groups and nomads. States field armies, mostly highly organized, with a hierarchy of command, disciplined, and well armed. These forces are best suited to open confrontation, and are often reliant upon supply train and depots. In contrast, those they label as barbarians, are usually loosely organized bands of volunteers following a chosen leader, poorly disciplined, and often lightly armed. These forces employ harassment in the form of raid, ambush, sudden attack and swift withdrawal. Mounted nomads are particularly adept at such rapid irregular warfare, unrestrained by supply lines and hindered only by booty, which they may discard at need, killing prisoners and stolen herd animals. When the two forms of warfare collide, each despises the other, viewing them as dishonorable and cowardly. There's then the perspective of scale: set battles versus skirmishes, but perhaps I'd best not go into that here. ?

How, precisely, can I judge something that is not in the public domain? As a customer, I can and will voice opinions on material that fails to satisfy my personal criteria. Some of the Hero Wars material I've picked up is excellent, even if canon has moved on: Anaxial's Roster, The Cults of Sartar, much of Thunder Rebels, the Gazetteer. The Scenario books aren't bad. But ILH stopped me looking for and buying any more. Just too weird and obscure, too divergent from what came before (and now what comes after). Now, I appreciate that you may have some emotional attachment to the two books (I don't know who you are) but any author who goes into print has got to expect rejection. I am reminded of a book series by a friend... The first three books were good alternative history (with magic, and some disguised Lovecraftian entities hovering in the background). The fourth book went seriously awry, didn't bring the series to a conclusion (I now know there's supposed to be a sequel, one day) and there was a major and unpleasant twist for a major character at the end. It had its moments, but... So the author asks me what I thought of it. I, trying to be polite, decline. He insists. I decline. He insists. I send a two page critique. It's pretty harsh. 'Hmm,' he says, 'that's very close to what my mom says.' Then a draft of the new book he is working on drops into my in-box. 'Crunch' should reflect 'fluff', not the other way around. If the world is changed to fit in with the foibles of a game system, then there's something severely wrong with the creative process. It's why AD&D is so unsatisfying (for me). The combat system is odd, and the treatment of cultures and religions to fit in with the abstract alignment system just doesn't work, for me. Perhaps, but there have been plenty of historical skirmish games which don't attempt to rewrite history to make skirmishing the only historical method of warfare. What makes this particularly sad is that Greg Stafford came up with a simple solution for emulating battle experience, back in the days of RQ, though it wasn't part of the published rules. Very abstract, but also fairly realistic. Just not realistic, if you are attempting to emulate a battle. There are ways of doing it; demeaning the setting isn't the way to go. It depends upon your personal credulity filter. In fantasy games, literature and films, the audience is expected to adjust their expectations of what is and is not real. For example, in The Two Towers, we have a fairly realistic active siege, albeit involving elves, orcs with gun powder, and walking trees. It's all portrayed fairly convincingly. Until the cavalry arrive and descend an 80 degree slope to charge into a line of prepared infantry. Now, you might argue that faced by a rolling charge, the Uruks will become disordered. Fine. However, riding a horse, wearing armour, down such a slope stretches credulity to breaking point and beyond. Simply couldn't happen. The horses will slip and fall. Reality crash. I am minded of two other popular but supposedly serious films where credulity breaks very early on, both by Ridley Scott. Gladiator starts with a battle. The problem is that we know a fair bit about Roman tactics of the period, and what we see on the screen doesn't fit: heavy cavalry charging through a forest, legionaries fighting out of formation. If you know anything of the period, just about every detail is wrong, and there are errors throughout. Exodus: Gods and Kings is perhaps even worse: we have numerous errors, and the depiction of the Battle of Kadesh is just silly. I couldn't watch it beyond the point where a Hittite cavalryman was dragged along by his stirrups... We happen to know the battle site, and despite Ramesses II's propaganda, know something of the troops involved. It isn't what we see on the screen. Will most of the audience notice these things? Probably not. In contrast, the first two Mummy films also play games with history, but, the credulity filter is at a different setting. It doesn't matter that the depiction of ancient Egypt is a mishmash and often completely wrong. They are not serious films. What's weird, is that old Hollywood, without the benefit of CGI often provided fairly accurate depictions of Roman warfare. So, it depends upon what you aspire to emulate. In fantasy games there's inevitably fantasy, but if it doesn't work then the whole thing collapses.

I can't (and don't) speak for Chaosium, and having no system axe to grind (last played in Glorantha in RQ3; game group long dispersed; unlikely to play any games in the future) but in the material available to me there's an obvious trend from WBRM onwards for increasing depth and improvement of presentation. Back in the day, RQ2 presented a fantasy world in such a way that it wasn't hard to pretend that many of its cultures and cults could be slotted into the real Bronze Age/Iron Age, with obvious exceptions. From the published (and until recently unpublished) material there's been a trend of extension, enhancement, and elaboration, which is typical of an ongoing creative project. The material in the Encyclopedia Glorantha, for example, is rough, obviously intended to be rewritten, and much of it has been subsequently seriously reworked. The same goes for the old army lists, after the board game, when there seem to have been various attempts towards a new tactical game. Some units have vanished, some have been altered, and so on. The authors and writers of books, television series and cinematic series often have a 'bible' that provides details of the setting, to maintain consistency, and, in shared universes, to help new writers offer stories or scripts. Some authors create background bibles that dwarfs the final story (Tolkien and Middle Earth comes to mind - but he rewrote his background and his fiction over and over again; Robert E. Howard was ahead of his time, creating maps and a history). It's part of the creative process. You can often spot science fiction and fantasy fiction that lack this sort of background because the story and its world is literally paper thin. With Glorantha, we have the bare bones of stories, but the cult write-ups, scenario details, and background material are the 'bible', and it is very thick - but has the benefit that you don't (and can't) know everything but can dip into it for what you want. There are distinct areas of doubt and uncertainty, and long may they remain so (knowing definite facts of events in the God Time is impossible). The 'bible' continues to get updated, and this is apparent in RQ2 and RQ3. At that point I lost contact with the setting, missing out the old email forums, never saw the fanzines (only picked up one copy of Tales of the Reaching Moon, was (briefly) involved with a Tekumel fanzine until its sudden demise and only found out years later why it folded), picked up the Hero Wars boxed set and was unable to understand the mechanics (being entirely outside fandom expected it to be similar to RQ, until I opened the box...), and left Glorantha until the Guide kickstarter somehow came to my attention. At that point I started looking for the Glorantha material I missed: especially Tale of the Reaching Moon (the issue I'd picked up was probably the most esoteric). I picked up most of the Mongoose books cheaply when they lost the license, and whilst there were some excellent ones (Ralios and Dara Happa Rises were good solid work), as a treatment of the more magical Second Age they were disappointing. I've read the RQ6 rulebook (or at least one version of it) and it seemed good, but I have never seen any Gloranthan material related to it. For quite a while, I have been interested in warfare in Glorantha (having masses of books on ancient warfare). Last year someone mentioned that the ILH had details of the Lunar Army; I obtained volume 2 - nothing useful there. Then I picked up volume 1 and found it... painfully thin. Where the presentation of military units in RQ2 and RQ3 material was obviously fairly firmly rooted in our ancient world, but with the addition of magic (a few obvious anachronisms such as dragoons and platoons, but more accessible than using an ancient term of the equivalents - or clumsily making a word up), the ILH treatment showed no understanding of ancient warfare, especially its odd concentration upon tactical squads - for which there was no equivalent in any ancient army. The closest would be the file of troops, or the war band, but they don't really fit very well. There was nothing there I could use. Thus my comment.

I missed the HeroWars period (bar the boxed set, and a hardback that was going cheap in an auction at a convention) and I only picked up the Mongoose books cheaply after they lost the license, and have bought up a few of the HW books over recent years. I obtained the ILH books and found them as off-putting as the boxed set. So, it isn't a matter of who wrote what or when, or what is right or wrong with them, but how they mesh with (old and new) canon.

Tarsh was rich, but weakened by Moirades and his extravagant spending. Moirades is now long dead. Regrettably, you are relying upon an in-world document for your supposition. There's zero evidence of the university you believe in which you claim was 'a college of magic able to compete with the Imperial College on the research of new Lunar magics'. Zero evidence. If you mean Wyrms Footnotes 12, it claims Wassail helped Phargentes do this. Please check your sources. However, this does not denote a magical college in Tarsh, just an elaborate ritual in a temple. For that matter, Terasarin died in 1600; Phargentes in 1579; Moirades in 1610. So the WF#12 entry is more than a little suspect. Your opinion isn't binding, especially when it is based on an erroneous assumption. Huh? Tork isn't a subject kingdom but a region of the insane. Tarsh is a provincial kingdom, and subject to the Provincial Government. Yet the Guide also says: LUNAR PROVINCES: Five kingdoms in Upper Peloria have special status as tributary provinces. Native rulers collect taxes, pay special tribute, support temples, and coordinate their operations under the commands of a Provincial Governor. Not four - five kingdoms. Profiting from its fertile valleys and position on a trade route, Tarsh pays more tax. And if you read the description of the other Provincial Kingdoms, you'll find that most are poorer than Tarsh. Irrelevant. Why do you insist on railroading threads? The ILH (both volumes) are no longer canonical - and frankly both are of poor quality. In the Guide it says: About 6/28 (1545), the Provincial Government was formed to help Prince Phargentes liberate Tarsh, his brother's kingdom, from dissident rebels. In 6/38 (1555), the heir was killed, the rebel Tarsh king ousted, and the rightful dynasty continued to rule. For a while, Phargentes was both King of Tarsh and Provincial Overseer. So Phargentes was Provincial Governor at Mirin's Cross long before he ruled Tarsh, and it is unlikely that all the government apparatus was moved to Tarsh and then moved back to Mirin's Cross.