Sir_Godspeed

Kero Fin's seemingly unique relation to Orlanth is the one aspect that does seem problematic with my whole mountain-adaptation thing. That being said - do Ralian or Fronelan Orlanthi acknowledge Kero Fin as Orlanth's mother? Or do they have different genealogies to him? If we knew that, we could perhaps extrapolate what's possible for someone on the other side of the world.

This might be too late an addition, but I've seen people discuss the possible Western/Malkioni origins of Lhankor Mhy before: the idea being that he is a deification of the Zzaburri caste archetype/function in an otherwise theistic context, possibly occurring during the Greater Darkness when many Malkioni supposedly fell to theism (the main "clues" being the scholarly role, writing, the diversity of magics, and on a more lighthearted note, the obligatory beards for both Lhankorites and Zzaburites.). Now, regardless of whether this is true or not, it made me think about whether Lhankor Mhy's similarities to Umathelan Sedalpist Zzaburites might either a) make Lhankorites superfluous, being rolled into them, or b) influenced by them to such a degree that their forms and even mythic roles start mixing up. Some mentioned Mralot earlier, which I think is a good bet given that the Guide mentions many of the Orlanthi as having given up the plow & cattle agriculture and instead practicing swidden horticulture and herding pigs (seemingly on the command of the elves, if I recall correctly). May or may not be a female version though. I'm also considering the importance of a volcano god, given the geologically active nature of some of the Umathelan mountains, and more importantly the mythical role those mountains play in Doraddi mythology (ie. being raised by a volcano/mountain god to stop invaders). I'm not implying that the Doraddi necessarily shared their myths directly with the Orlanthi, but the elves might have similar stories, or the God Learners, or an intrepid God-Talker might have sensed the burning hotness and mythic power lying beneath them, which could only be Veskarthen/Lordil/Loddik/[Insert appropriate Hot Earth God name here], maybe even through explorative heroquesting. There might even be some interesting interplay between the Storm Gods' mythical connection to the top of these peaks, and the Hot Earth God role "below/inside" them. I'm reminded of the story of how an enemy giant promised to build a wall around Storm Village against marrying the Orlanthi goddess of happiness. Perhaps it's the Hot Earth God that stands in for this role in Umathela, whether as a villain, buffoon or good guy, who knows. The Umathelan mountain range seem like a good stand-in for the role played by the Rockwood range in general, and Umath's Throne seems to be a suitable stand in for Kero Fin, Top of the World Mountain or Stormwalk as the local Orlanthi "Axis Mundi", given the Orlanthi mythical adaptability (eg. during the Theyalan missionary expansion). This also brings into question Mount Vedra, Baraku and Desero's Horde. If they indeed were some manner of (para-)Vinkgotlings, perhaps the Umathelan version of the raising of the Umathelan mountains is not that they were raised to resist a horde from the south (As in the Doraddi myths) - but to protect the Storm Tribe/Orlanthi from the heat/chaos from the south - or whatever (or would these winds be associated with Stormbull?) A cursory googling seems to mention that Jeff answered someone's question about Umathelan grain/land goddesses elsewhere, and supposedly these are Vrala for Vralos and Enklosa for Enkloso (shocking! ) and they are apparently associated with peas, millet and barley and wheat. Nothing crazy there, in other words - except for that they apparently welcomed Aldrya, went into the underworld with Ernalda during the Great Darkness, and were protected by High King Elf. https://2ndage.blogspot.com/2014/09/umathelan-grain-goddesses.html This would seem to indicate that Aldrya, Flamal and High King Elf all have possibly larger roles in the Umathelan pantheon/mythology than their Genertelan counterparts, but I won't speculate too much beyond saying that there's potential for a lot of cool stuff. It always seemed to me that High King Elf had a role similar to both Elmal/Yelmalio and the Lightbringers, but what to do with that I can't say. Having High King Elf as one of the Lightbringers or as a pseudo-Elmal(io) could be cool, though. Maybe Ehilm truly died, but High King Elf kept things going. Again, pure speculation and wish-thinking on my part. I just wanted to end this on the note that I didn't spend too much time on giving the deities region-appropriate names, so pardon any confusion, but juggling all the versions is a bit too much for me at times.

Is the Second Era stuff published by Mongoose still canon/applicable? I remember seeing a number of references to different groups that were thought to be either precursors to the God Learner Collective, or the larger denomination that they were a part or, or possibly the formal name of them - this is from the wiki, as I do not have access to any of that stuff myself.

It was always my impression that the Orlanthi didn't really view Yelm first and foremost as a sun deity, but as constriction on the freedom of Orlanth, hence why they see Elmal as the sun. Similarly, it was always my impression that the DHs viewed Orlanth not necessarily first and foremost as the storm and wind, but most importantly as a symbol of the disruption of proper social and natural order, hence why they associate the Middle Air more with Entekos (and later with Sedenya - unless Entekos was only really important in Pelanda). Anyway, my point is more that it seems, from the material I've read at least, that it's the mythological narrative role that supersedes the elemental association in the mind of each "opposing" pantheon. That is, of course, assuming that the Bad Emperor and Rebellus Terminus can really be said to be Yelm and Orlanth to begin with - and that this isn't a First Age Council/Nysalorean innovation in order to "harmonize" the World Council's disparate (and probably conflicting) mythologies. I assume we will never know.

All of this makes me wonder - if Elmal is only Lightfore/The Yellow Planet/Little Sun - what is the Orlanthi god of the ACTUAL sun? Maybe I've read things incorrectly, but I've never gotten the impression that the Orlanthi expressly associate the Bad Emperor with the glowing orb in the sky, as it were, rather focusing on Yelm's tyrannical/despotic aspects than on his solar ones. Of course, I might be way off. It really is interesting seeing home much of the Monomyth was worked out long before the God Learners, especially in the central Genertelan area, where Pelorian and Theyalan cultures engaged in a vigorous cultural exchange only barely a century after Time (not to mention before).

Yes, and the invasion of the blue dragon (Aroka, iirc) is a mythic event that occured sometimed during the Storm Age, I think. Not sure if this Blue Dragon is the same as the one that eventually turned into the Oslira, but that's not the topic of this thread, I suppose.

It's probably debatable whether people in Glorantha would be able to give a good answer on that, even.

Yup, the multiple choice is a good thing for play, I would think. Anyway, I was thinking less about stoking the fire in its elemental terms, and more in the terms of symbolical allegory. The hearth would represent the body-heat of a dormant creature. In a dead creature, the hearth is out cold. In a hibernating or sleeping one, there are still embers. Making the hearth light up is evidence of innate life-energy. If one wanted to grasp for mythical parallels, I suppose maybe a vague allusion to Elmal and his watchman-in-the-dark role could be made, although I suspect there are more apt comparisons to the mythical role of whoever the Orlanthi hearth-goddess is (Barntar's wife? Durev's? I'm not too goo on the nitty-gritty) during the Greater Darkness. That being said, if elemental imagery overrides allegorical functions in the way Heroquest or Glorantha for that matter is stylistically designed, feel free to ignore it, it's just fun to brainstorm.

Duh, can't believe I forgot that connection.

I know this one is too late, but it was fun to read people's suggestions. The hibernating bear symbolism became pretty obvious as soon as someone pointed it out, so when thinking about something myself, I had this idea: A dead person has no heartbeat, which a sleeping (hibernating) person has. While in the underworld, Odayla could come across or trade for (perhaps with the aforementioned Hedgehog) a drum. Odayla proves that he is alive by playing the drum (simulating/representing his heartbeat) faster and faster until he wakes up (ie. achieves a normal heartbeat. Bonus points for some good old mythic trickery). Alternatively, you could have Odayla stoke a dormant fire, to show that a) he has breath, and b) he can generate heat against the cold of death/winter. You could even add these together plus one more to get that fine mythical pattern of threes, which is always satisfying. A consequence of this Heroquest should definitely be an uncontrollable hunger or losing a lot of weight or something like that when one wakes up. I chuckled at the birthing side of things. Good stuff. ^^

Despite the climate in Choralinthor bay being usually presented as either mediterranean or even subtropic, I can't help but envision the coastlands of Hendrikiland as similar to western Norway (bear with me, it's not all glaciers and snow), except with a more even escarpment and following plateau than rows of alpine mountains, and with rivers rather than fjords (although the latter two are not mutually exclusive). This brings me visions of pebbly, sandy flats and hills, a steady, fairly mild wind, areas that are good for grazing cattle and sheep, but the actual grazeable territory being limited by wetlands and marshy deltas or hollows. It also means a more temperate, yet largely snow-free climate (but lots of rain), with significant loss in warmth as soon as one climbs the escarpment. This is of course just my geographical bias talking, but hey, we work with the mental references we have. The difference between the glacier-shaped lands of Norway might not work too well with this landscape though, which seems unaffected by any ice age (or ice age mythical equivalent) just your standard water erosion on otherwise hard rock. Another possible similarity might be the coastal land in southern South Africa, such as around Cape Town, which is nestled under the Great Escarpment with cattle-grazing highlands above.

Well, this thread got me musing about a possible Norwegian translation, and I ended up with "Gudkyndig" ("God-knower"), from the archaic "kunn(e)" for specialist knowledge, which is related to modern "kunne" and "kan", the part-tense conditional and present tense versions of the verb "can" (with the implication of "to be able to do, to know how to do"). -kyndig is nowadays mostly used in legal contexts (a "sakkyndig" is a legal council or expert), but "fagkyndig" is occasionally used to refer to a highly trained tradesman, craftsman or artisan. "Lærd" works too, but for some reason I didn't think of it after I read the above post. Makes me wonder if "lærling" (apprentice, but literally "learner-ing" could work too. Kinda implies they're apprentices to the gods though, which doesn't quite sit right with how the God Learners are presented or what they did.

Hey, I'm a newbie to both this forum, and to Glorantha in general, but I've been reading up on the guide and various parts of the Stafford Library (the ones I've been able to get my hands on). My interest comes mainly from the anthropological side of things, since I'm working on my master's thesis in social anthropology. I just wanted to add, somewhat carefully (as there is a lot in here I haven't been able to read up on), that most oral-based societies across the world tend to be more flexible in their kinship structures than what the "official" versions often make it out to be. The way I tend to interpret the lore on laws and customs that are found in the background books, is that they are "ideals" rather than an all-encompassing description of facts on the ground, as it were. Examples from real life that come to mind are the historical Germanic tendencies to "invent" mythological ancestries to justify regal positions (in Glorantha this obviously becomes a bit more complicated what with Heroquesting and all). The Norwegian kings claiming to descend from Freyr, the god of agriculture (via an ancient (to them) bloodline in Sweden), is a famous example. Another, more recent example, come from the various Nilotic peoples in what is now South Sudan - where patrilineality is practiced heavily, but sometimes the gender of an ancestor is "discovered" or "re-remembered" to be a male rather than a female, which allows for what would otherwise be an exogamous group, to be treated as part of the clan or bloodline (otherwise the descendants of an ancestors sister would belong to her husband's bloodline, of course). I strongly suspect - or use as headcanon - that Gloranthan societies would also be open to similar creative moves for the sake of social cohesion and accommodation. I actually interviewed a number of people who'd defied traditional caste-regulations in rural India, and while their experiences varied, and all were tough experiences with disapproval for their families ranging from dismissive to outright disowning them, the ones who were hellbent on getting their partner in marriage did prevail, however "impossible" those unions were on paper (or in the collective mind of the caste-group, rather). This leads me to the topic of marriages within clans. With the perspective of "bending the rules" in place, one could for example imagine a clever pater/mater familias, chief or other authority figure, asking a member of a different clan to act as a sponsor or patron of whoever wanted to get married within the clan, for example. One of the unlucky pair of star-crossed lovers could appeal with the sponsorship of a out-of-clan relative, maybe matrilineal even, to get things more palateable to the laws/norms. Maybe it would require a formal adoption rite to get an external affiliation, or a form of wardship, or just a token stay in the household of the sponsor or something, but ultimately if there is will for it, it could probably be pressed through. The force of the lovers' personalities, the standing of their families (ironically, higher-standing families might not make this easier, possibly the opposite), and external contacts and so on would all be factors playing into this. I suppose the roleplayer's perspective here would be "storyhook", but since I'm a bit new to this world of gaming, I tend to think of it just as ordinary folks figuring out how to make life liveable when confonted with social strictures. Since this is my first post here, I hope I did not commit any faux pas, or said something irrelevant or what have you. I'm enjoying the lore-side of Glorantha immensely, it's clearly a world that's been crafted with a great deal of anthropological insight.