Sir_Godspeed

Wow! Really loving the replies here. I've been fascinated by the World Council-DH cultural exchange for a while now, and trying to discern the post-interchange beliefs from Gray Age beliefs, and indeed from later God Learner influences. It's a futile attempt, of course, but it *is* very fun. Aether procreating with Gata, and how that story got preserved is an interesting point, and from what we know of DH lore it does sound odd that he would "sink" this low. But of course, their version of things is biased towards "immateriality", in a sense, and the presence of women and outside forces seems to be a nuisance at best and a disaster at the worst. I've gotten quite fond of this idea of a Lodrilela, as it were (around Lodril's mountain) - but I'm also wondering of the story in the Entekosiad might shed some light on it, especially since it, as you mentioned, is a mythology where the Lodril-equivalent doesn't really submit to Yelm in any large degree. ViSaRuDaran is already an earthy being (I think), and thus more of a proto-Lodril/Turos kind of being, and Brightface seems more like Yelm than he does Aether, but somewhere in there, there seems to be... a place for, if nothing else... a copulation between matter and energy to produce the aroused airs, as it were. Entekos is there, of course, so it's not too much of a stretch to look for an angry male version, possibly one generation up. I know that's to some extent how the mythology starts off (matter-energy), but more of a yin-yang sense, in that to the Green/Gold age Naverians/Wendarians, matter and energy were never truly separate, and formed a unified whole rather than formerly distinct entities, I think. Or maybe I'm getting it mixed up with some types of South Indian pantheistic streaks (which I'm currently doing some research on IRL). I don't know, it's vague and muddled to me at the moment, but I just feel like something like Umath fits in there, in a mythology that's far less unipolar and more relational than the DH one, and also has less to prove, as it were, than the Orlanthi. Joerg, good point on the Orlanthi acknowledging Lodril/Veskarthan/Caladra as an uncle (it's an interesting trait of the Orlanthi mythology of how inclusive it is, perhaps reflecting the highly dynamic social organization of the Orlanthi themselves, and their admitted amalgamated origins and present). And yeah, your point on how it wouldn't count as a kinslaying is also taken. It was a nice idea though, something Cain & Abel about it.

Well, God-Learnerism thought it may be, Umath and Yelm are both supposedly sons of Aether. Yelm possibly by parthenogenesis (ie. Yelmic/DH emanationism) and Umath by interaction with Gata, making them sorta half-brothers. Which makes Yelm the uncle of Orlanth, in absolute genealogical terms, though not necessarily in an acknowledged or socially relevant manner. EDIT: Although, making the killing of Yelm a kinslaying could be a mythically significant way to explain why the cosmos deteriorated, as it is a chaotic action. Indeed, possibly THE prototypical chaotic action - both in and of it iself on a basic social level, but also possibly reflexively because it was the action that started all this mess. (the other prime candidates possibly being rape, which brought the Unholy Trio together.)

Wouldn't "Lodik" have more of a corner on Fire in Ralios? I suppose both of them could, it just seems he's more of the primeval fire guy.

I'm not sure if it's all that fruitful to think of the wall and its named peaks as objectively present, and try to align the wall accordingly. It's more likely, I believe, that various groups of Orlanthi are incorporating their local holy mountains into the mythical/narrative matrix of the Aedin story, to maintain a tangible connection to the mythic events. Hence why we find that (apparently) the Orlanthi of Lankst consider Top of the World to be the central peak. Granted, you could say that the Lankstites (and I'd guess other Orlanthi as well) are simply wrong, due to being away from the Vingkotling core area, and later converts - but I'm still wary of a semi-literalist attempt to combine mythic and mundane terrain.

I do quite like this, and the idea of recursiveness (and the futility of omniscience) is a clever plot point. I have no idea on whether the Chaotic presence is "canonical", but it seems to me that merely trying to manifest a new deity within time is arguably Chaotic in itself, as it violates the Cosmic Compromise (and plays on the same motif as Nysalor and Sedenya, and possibly even Ompalam and Avanapdur, although the former is not necessarily a newly created god, just liberated, and the latter might've been a pre-Dawn event, I forget.) Certainly Chaotic from the Orlanthi and Theyalan perspective though. Anyway, the second Chaotic infestion point I could imagine is that if Zistor was going to register and catalogue all things, it would necessarily have to catalogue Chaos as well, in all its myriad forms, which could be chaotic in itself. Forbidden knowledge and all that. I have no idea if Delecti's involvement is canonical either, but that's a cool nod to him pre-undeath as a functionary of the EWF, even if the Machine War was more of a proxy-war than involving the EWF overtly. This brings me to why the God Learners would place such an important project on the border of their main political, military and cosmic rival, but this is Glorantha, so I suppose the answer is "something something mythically important site".

I can envision it now, at the end of the Godtime, when Asrelia has left the Bountiful Earth and locked herself below, and a young maiden goddess steps up from the caverns below, her hands becoming twined by snakes, her figure changing to become more matronly: "There must always be an Ernalda."

I've finally gotten my hands on the Sourcebook, and it points out that the age/social status of the different Earth goddesses and their names are interchangeable in an odd sort of fashion. In a sense, when Ernalda was young she was Voria, and when she is old she will be Asrelia. Or maybe she is all three at once, or maybe Asrelia was Ernalda., etc. etc. The point is really to point at the Maiden-Mother-Crone trinity of the Earth goddesses, and, I think, to allude to the semi-pantheistic perspective of Earth deities, imho. This leads me to the main point, which is that this could conceivably apply to Maran Gor as well - ie. she is the youthful dancer, the tempestuous earth shaker, and then whatever her crone aspect would be. Or it's her daughter, or she is her own daughter. You know, typical god-stuff - head-screwey, but nothing someone brought up with Trinitarian Christianity can't put their head around. Anyway, just a little something to add to your very interesting reasoning and perspective - and cool story hook.

In-universe, isn't Argrath explained as just the Thayalanized version of Arkat - sort of like Greek Timotheos and English Timothy? It would make sense for other cultures to refer to Argrath with whatever is their local version of Arkat, then.

This is amusingly similar to Tolkien with (Thranduil) Elvenking in the Hobbit and Elu Thingol in the Silmarillion. As an aside, from what I've seen from Greg's comments, the conflict between the Sun-worshipping Pelorians and the Storm-worshipping Orlanthi is essentially borrowed thematically from Egyptian mythology, up to the point where both Seth (Sutekh) and Orlanth kill their counterpart (although it's probably debatable whether Osiris counts entirely as a sun deity as opposed to a more general celestial one before he became the king of the dead). The context and aftermath is of course very different, but still, I remember thinking how obvious it was once I read the passage where he pointed it out, yet I never thought about it before.

Don't they set up the (very-shortlived) kingdom of Malkonwal for a while?

Well, by that reductionist (and for our current purposes: quite absurd) definition, the Dara Happans are in fact barbarians too, being non-Greek. Now, I won't press the matter further since it's not a huge deal, but suffice to say, my main issue is whether a term is useful or not. In this debate, from what I can tell, the term has been more a source of confusion and cross-talk than a solid analytical tool with which to clarify things, which is ideally how fixed terminology should work. It is, in essence, a flavor term which is descriptive and cool, but that is about it, really.

The finger bone usage of phalanges is a parallel, I believe, not a predecessor of its use in the sense of "battle formation". The earliest root usages I could find is that the term phalanx is a cognate of English "plank", from a PIE root that essentially means, beam, pole, or stick. This sense applies itself both to finger bones and spears, of course, as well as carrying poles (for bindles and the like). Anyway, this is straying a tad too far away. On another note, while I understand the flavorful, "rule of cool" desire to use the term "barbarian" (it's practically a gaming/fantasy staple, and heavily worked into Gloranthan Orlanthi's real-world public image), in terms of actually applying such a term to populations of people, it is - without exception - a heavily politicized and derogatory term. Less so, perhaps, very very early on when it simply meant "non-Greek speaker", but by the time it'd entered Latin usage, and by extension European popular imagination, it's become essentially a term meaning "culturally inferior". I guess what I'm saying is that unless there's some good, uncontroversial definition of barbarian that can be agreed upon within Glorantha, it's probably best to avoid it in serious debate, and leave it for the fluff articles (where DHs surely will use the term liberally against their Orlanthi neighbors) and promotional material. It's barely a step from calling Hsunchen or Doraddi "savages", imho.

Well, that might be a double-edged sword, a la Sparta and the helots. Not that I expect the Yelmalions to be as ruthlessly abusive as the Spartiate class, but if you've got a strong class divide that you use to prop up a well-equipped, well-drilled military elite, that also potentially means your milita support will be more impoverished and poorly trained than otherwise - and potentially even hostile and rebellious to its overlords.

Not to interrupt this highly-detailed debate, but there were a few things I caught on to: 1. Hill-folk in the Gloranthan/Kerofinelan sense: does this mean groups that largely practice barley or wheat agriculture without irrigation ditches as opposed to lowland rice and maize agriculture with irrigation networks? Or is there some other definition I'm not aware of? If this term is of such consternation, but doesn't have a good definition, it would perhaps be better to avoid it. 2. The whole issue of phalanx warfare and hoplites in the real world is possibly different from Glorantha, but here's a few things I know: - A hoplite is not defined by his weapon, really, but by his large, body-covering shield, the hoplon (hence the name). It is the large shield that makes possible the mutual protection and which makes up for the unwieldiness of tightly massed marching (which would otherwise be easy pickings for slingers, javelineers and archers). - That being said, the spear is central because a phalanx is really at the core of things just a pushing contest. The actual winner is the group that manages to push the enemy off the field and make them lose cohesion. Loss is indicated of the formation breaking and people running off (hence the Spartan indignation against people dropping their shield, ie. indicating retreat). - It's not a very complex tactic all things said and done, apart from a few quirks like the left flank usually being weaker due to most people being right handed, which would sometimes result in phalanxes circling each other as they were each strong against each other's weak side (a bit like boxers). One of the reasons why it comes off as deadly in history is probably because leaders were expected to be at the front, where most deaths occurred, and so you get a disproportionate number of "named characters" dying, as it were. - Greek hoplites themselves were not professional soldiers, but citizens amassed for war, and - by the term's strict definition - militia. Some cities maintained elite professional units, but standard hoplite warfare was for the most part conducted by part-timers. - The hoplite's spear, (the "dory") was a little over two meters, and used as a one-handed spear for thrusting. Usually underhanded, but also overhanded for offensive strikes. This is the kind of spear you'd find at Marathon, if I've understood correctly. Marathon was also largely fought by - as mentioned above - citizen-soldier hoplites (ie. militia). - The Macedonian Sarissa was a much later introduction (maybe 4-500 years younger), a spear in 4-6 meter length, which required a great deal more drilling to deal with. I can't say much more than that, but's a very different beast. Notably this meant that the Sarissa hoplites weren't actually hoplites at all all, since they had to use a smaller shield (the pelta) suspended by a shoulder-strap in order to devote both hands for the long spear, so no body-covering hoplon for them. Importantly, the Sarissa phalanx was mostly useful against *other* phalanxes, of the ordinary, shorter type, mostly due to the extended reach. Less so against mounted archers or javelineers. - I've seen a lot of conflicting stuff about how Dark Age North Sea groups (Anglo-Saxons, Norse, etc.) fought, and it's a bit difficult to split the myths and embellishment from reality, but insofar as the most common weapon of the Germanic peoples was the spear, and they utilized large, round shields, it seems pretty reasonable for me to go along with that a shieldwall is essentially a dark age phalanx. Certainly not a sarissa, several-layers-deep, tightly-drilled phalanx, but in the sense of a bunch of tightly placed guys protecting each other with their shields and pushing with one-handed, underarm spears against a similar formation. - That being said, both ancient Greeks and Dark Age Germanic peoples had varying formations for different tasks. They were practical, creative, pragmatic people. EDIT: Not sure if any of this is helpful.

"Mythographer" sounds more applicable than Theologian, imho.

This is something I've thought about quite a bit, but never quite been able to look into. I suspect Esrolia: Land of 10k Goddesses might shed some light on it, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. Pardon the following mess of questions, it's just that so many things seem related/interconnected. So basically, one of the things I noticed once I started getting into Glorantha was the ubiquity of "earth goddesses", which very, very often feature as partners in other-element-dominated pantheons or even histories. f.ex. Oria in Pelorian mythology, Erlanda in Orlanthi mythology, or even Seshna as a dynastic mother of the early Seshnegi Serpent Kings. There are tons of more stuff, of course. They are also paired with at least earth-related deities as well, like Flamal and Lodril, but neither are purely cthonic it seems. We're also seemingly confronted with an array of regional goddesses (called land or grain goddesses, I believe) that very conveniently not only apply to named geographic regions, but even seem to alter as geography changes. Some of these goddesses however also seem to be "a-regional/global", like Erlanda herself (or is she?? There used to be a place called Erlandela, after all) and so on. Many of these feature in relations with whoever are the local male deity bigwigs, but rarely rule in their own stead, or even maintain their own kind of people. That doesn't seem to have been the case forever though, as very early Pelanda/Wendaria seems to indicate, and so on. Complex stuff. Layered above these regional godesses we also have the cardinal-direction gods, or continental gods, like Genert and Pamalt, and arguably Malkion/Zzabur and Vith as well (which also parallel Pelorian cardinal administrators, and Orlanthi "camps", but that's neither here nor there, really). Out of these, Genert is the one most clearly defined as an earth-entity (even if it's likely he would've had his own unique proprietary rune as Pamalt has), to the point where he, apart from being called a giant, is also called an Earth Titan or Earth King (a great title that should be used more, imho), and ruled a garden-realm where everything grew aplenty. With his death central Genertela not only became a wasteland, but Genertela in general supposedly has become less fertile and more conflict-filled than Pamaltela in the south. Now comes the God-Learnerism: do we have any good sources, or examples of whether there were independent Earth-folk (like Time's Solar folk, Storm folk, etc.) were extant, and if so, what their social practices were and other aspects of their lives? Given that most genealogies involving earth goddesses tend to be woven into other pantheons, do we have any good "earth-centric" genealogies perhaps including the Earth Kings/Directional Lords, the regional/featural land goddesses, the more general mother goddesses, and the primal earth? Do we have any indication what beliefs in other pantheons might have been appropriated into other belief systems from hypothetical Earth Folk? Or indeed what happened to them, physically? (The Durevings joining the Vingkotlings and becoming the Esrolians come to mind, as do the Praxians and Pentans forming from the survivors of Genert's Garden, or patriarchal urbanized Pelanda forming from pre-urban matrriarchal Wendaria). And lastly, is it even possible to talk about an "Earth people" in the first place, and not just various groups who were focused on chthonic powers unrelated to each other? Pardon for the multitude of questions - I of course fully acknowledge that most of these things probably don't have one canonical answer, or were ever intended to be answered, but I find them interesting to think about.

Yeah, in the Glorious Reascent of Yelm, Bijiif is the "warmth portion" of Yelm's soul, and the part that goes to the underworld when Yelm disintegrated/was killed. He may have been reunited with the other parts later at the Dawn, but I seem to recall from somewhere that he is also a ruler of the DH afterlife. I could be wrong on that latter one, though.

Considering that Gloranthan stars can supposedly be made out to have different colors (Red Shargash, Green Orlanth's Ring, etc.), the brighter status of them makes sense.

This reminds me a bit about the Nuer people of South Sudan, who are also a pastoral cattle-raising people who organize in clans (by descent) and tribes (by affiliation). They did not traditionally have villages or forts (the Sudanese Nilotic plain barely has rocks, even), but they do organize pastures. The way they do this is that other clans from the tribe can enter the clan's pastures, but they will then relate to the proprietor-clan as "nobles". Consequently, if members of the noble clan moves out of their ancestral lands and into another clan's lands, they "lose" their noble status and become, in a word, tenants of a different noble. Orlanthi clearly don't quite work like this, but it's model that's neat to think with, and it opens for settlement dynamism.

Do the Orlanthi practice dowry or bride-price? That would influence how things takes place too.

Well, his act was a kind one (if seemingly accidental) so it would be nice for it have some positive consequence as well. Maybe it's a tasty game bird, if nothing else? Maybe from now on the Odaylans of his clan will be warned by its cry if someone is trying to sneak up on them or something? It was fun to read about the session. Great stuff.

Thanks.

The elven acknowledgement of Yelmalio is something several people have mentioned here, but from stuff I've seen on them, they don't actually seem to have "deities" in the common human sense. Rather they acknowledge different agents or actors within the greater cosmic whole, it seems. To them the difference between an Elmal, a Yelm, an Yelmalio, etc. might be trivial, fluid, or otherwise fundamentally different from a human theistic perspective. I'm reminded of a in-universe article written from the perspective of Belintar, where he claimed to once having been an elf (not sure when... maybe one of the winners of the Tournament?) but no longer being able to explain how and why they see things so differently.

Well, I can only say that I've still got a lot to read up on it seems, and I appreciate the correction. That being said, with regards to mountains - there is Umath's Throne which supposedly is the seat of a storm god. How important it is cultically I have no idea, but certainly the Umathelan Orlanthi seem to have gone out of their way to name it after someone special (unless, of course, this is another case of outdated material). There's also the spur of mountains dividing Enkloso and Vralos, which seem more reachable than the rest of the chain. I know the Guide had these maps of the radius around important Storm Mountains, but only Genertelan mountains come to mind - I'm not sure if they showed any images from Pamaltela. Your point on giving the storm gods an association with trees is interesting though. Makes me think of how Thor/Donar and Perun are all associated with the Oak in PIE mythologies, because lighting tend to strike the tallest trees. I should mention that Balumbasta literally used to be called Lodril in the older material I've seen, so while the canon probably has been refined, there seems to at least have been a conceptual similarity in the mind of Stafford at some point. Whether that deserves to be carried in into the more modern Doraddi myth, or be cast away as outdated terminology, or even dismissed as sloppy God-Learner lingo I can't comment on.

Well yes, but it's not a great comparison, since all of those are literally just the sun, whereas Glorantha has a crazy history with everything going haywire and various stellar bodies filling in or moving about. A random aside: this confusion around the Orlanthi view of the (literal) sun reminded me of how Norse people treated the sun and moon largely with disinterest. True, Sol og Måni feature in a myth of how they're chased by wolves and will die at Ragnarok, but there's no evidence of them receiving sacrifices or doing much of anything else. A few girls received Sol as a name element, but not nothing of tremendous cultic value beyond some prestige knick-knack in graves, iirc. Most mainstream Orlanthi seem not too dissimilar in this, seeing the sun perhaps mostly as "just one of those things that goes about", whatever it's name.