Sir_Godspeed

It has that slightly otherworldly storybook quality to it, which makes me feel very nostalgic, so it could be fun to see applied to Glorantha.

I made a related question a while back which might be somewhat helpful: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/9731-other-cultures-equivalent-of-wyter/

More like monomyth-adjacent, (in my opinion, anyway). Even Heortling and Esrolian mythologies have stuff in them that contradicts the Monomyth, and they even contradict themselves, respectively. I never assumed the Entekosiad was random, just that it represented a fairly different way of looking at the genesis of Glorantha, presented in the form of highly experimental knowledge-seeking.

Several months ago I proposed that Entekos was basically the Pelandan version of Orlanth, just feminine and with the "barbaric" aspects reduced to a minor attendan (Buburstus or whatever he's called - the thunder guy with a club, iirc). This never really catched on, so I proposed that she might be an hitherto unnamed sister of Orlanth, but I couldn't find any precedent for that. Lately I've been reading the Book of Heortling Mythology, however, and it introduces Serenha, the daughter of Umath, whose myth mentions that she arose in the "wake" of Umath's movement. She is not given a mother. There are things to count against this: her only real function in the Heortling pantheon seems to be to provide us with an explanation of where the breath-spirits that Kolat uses came from (Ha, He, Ho, etc.), and she is so obscure in Heortling mythology that I'm hesitant to believe that Greg would write a massive tome centred on what seems like a throwaway name. Additionally, there is not implication of her being associated with anything Dendara-like in the small snippet I've read. Someone also suggested the Entekos may be a sister or aspect of Umath, but I have to admit I'd prefer if we only had one Primal Storm/Air, if only for some semblance of simplicity. But, like, the Red Goddess has ALWAYS existed, so there! Is Orogeria a cognate/parallel of Velhara, the Lady of the Wild? If so, Heortling myths present as the daughter of Kero Fin. I'm tempted to say that this might mean that each "Land Goddess" has a daughter/incarnation that acts as a regional "Lady of the Wild" and/or "Huntress", much like they have grain daughters and herd daughters. The tamed and untamed aspects of the Earth Mothers. This would make Orogeria a daughter of Oria/Pelora or whichever is the most relevant entity. Pure speculation, of course. Always trying to impose patterns on the unpatterneable.

We don't have to go that far - Christian trinitarianism is a headscratcher in itself.

If Bisos is a parralel to Waha as some have suggested, it might not require one having migrated to the other, but rather that they have a common origin somewhere south of the Rockwoods. Maybe the sunken lands between modern-day Kethaela and the Spike. I have no idea if indeed Bisos is a parallel of Waha, and the exact geography is a bit irrelevant, but the point is the potential for a common origin outside of the places where the respective gods are worshipped now.

Wooah nelly! Ole' Orly' lookin' mighty fearsome there.

Minor point, but the Norse jötnar were not actually gigantic - at least not as a common descriptor, though they did have gigantic members (Ymir being the primal example of course, while we also have monstrous members like Jormundgandr and magically-transformed individuals like Utgard-Loki. Most Jötnar, however, appear pretty much entirely humanoid, down to size, it seems). This misconception was intensified when English-language translators (iirc) looked for a suitable term, and ended up using the Greek geantes/gigantes, more because of the shared theme of enmity (which we also find in Indian mythology with the Vedas and Asuras, etc, though this is not my forte). The proper etymology of jötunr appears to be something along the lines of "devourer". Its significance, origin, and wider thematic meaning is, to the best of my knowledge, unknown.

I was going to mention the Icelandic, who practiced less transhumance and more sheep farming and grain farming perhaps, but they did possibly have the longest-lasting farmer republic in the world. Of course, that just leaves us in Germanic roots again, with Lawspeakers and thralls and so forth, so doesn't really change anything. Not that I think hopping over to the Caucasian-Caspain highlands is necessarily going to yield any less particularistic terminology, with the added downside of being less clear for new users.

Yeah, but trying to piece them together is so fun, though.

I'm getting to the point where I'd like to experiment with some minor Glorantha fan-fiction or fan-material, but I don't have a personal blog or website on which to put it. Is there any place here that is open to such a thing, so should that kind of effort be left for other sites? Cheers!

This should perhaps have been posted in the beginning, as it is Chaosium's own style reference for the development of the Guide: https://www.glorantha.com/docs/orlanthi-overview/ It pretty much covers what we've already mentioned in this thread - or rather, it already covers what we've mentioned.

This grey area seems the most realistic for me. On a similar note, I would argue that if someone wound up in a feud with the clan of their sibling's in-laws, they could reasonably make a case for "recusing" themselves from going on raids and such. Different parties would then end up in an dilemma over whether loyalty to clan or respecting in-law relations would stand stronger - and these might be affected by additional factors, such as the social standing of the people in question, the cause of the feud, the severity, etc. etc. If played realistically, stuff like this should end up messy pretty quickly, as the real world tends to do. But it obviously shouldn't get in the way of fun gaming.

There is no "wow" reaction, but suffice to say, I'm impressed!

Eh, the Monomyth builds so heavily on the Theyalan-Pelorian synthesis of the Bright Empire that while some of the more spurious and radical elements should be shorn off, I'm getting the feel that much of it has been effectively mainstreamed because it wasn't miles off from what was already the accepted versions in much of urban Ralios and Maniria (and parts of Peloria, although it's really hard to tell what). (Folkloric and "Small tradition"-style beliefs might toss the monomyth aside for more immediately relevant local powers though, as is common).

Good catch. I was thinking that GanEstoro might be associated with the Greater Darkness of the Gods War (either as Chaos or Darkness) - but I'm not sure how these things line up chronologically (as mentioned above, I sadly don't have the text on me - but all of this appears to be before the Daxdarian age, so I guess it's during the Storm Age sometime). I guess the association with "Lies" fits fairly well with how a lot of theistic societies view sorcery/materialism. Sorcerers lie about how the universe works and perverse the faithful with their atheist/dystheist ideas, after all.

Yar Gan.... worshipped (Gan)Estoro aka Ganesatarus? One deity worshipping another, higher deity is very Gloranthan - but perhaps more importantly, if Ganesatarus is associated with Lies and Darkness, what does this mean for YarGan? And is he separate from the Blue King? I though they were the same.

Sorry for not following the trail you're making with the Bad Gods, I don't have the Entekosiad on me right now. However, I thought I'd just like to touch on this one: I don't think it's necessary to think of Erlanda and Erlandus as being the entirety of Storm and Great Earth - rather they are condemnations of the Vingkotling versions of those ideas. They're emphasizing the overt sexuality of these two, and "expelling" it, as foreign, inferior entities. I still believe that Dendara is effectively the Pelorian version of Ernalda, but with the sexual promiscuity (/freedom, agency) firmly removed and/or reined in, as befits the wife of Yelm. Her agricultural associations are also largely removed, as befits a noble lady (then again the Heortlings kinda distance Ernalda from agriculture as well through the Most, Much, Least story) but she is still the Wife, still the Mother, Still the Household Matron and still the Weaver. As in the "Least" section where Ernalda is given the immaterial gifts of the Earth from retiring Asrelia, Dendara also seems to rule over aspects of community togetherness, filial/sororal piety, domestic calm/positivity, and the organization of resources in there. Of course, Heortlings will claim that Orlanth ran away with the Great Goddess - which Solar Pelorians, I'm sure, will discount as barbaric ramblings. How could she have run away, she never left the good fertile valleys of her husband's empire! Checkmate atheists Heortlings. It's like how Heortlings "expelled" the cruel, tyrannical Sun by emphasizing his ruler nature over everything else, and instead focusing on their own, totally rad Elmal Sun. What, the Dara Happans claim that Elmal is just another name for the Cold Sun, who was a fractured and lesser sun of the Storm Age and Darkness? Pfffsshht, yeah, sure buddy. The only other alternative I can think of is that Pelorian Solar mythology divides the roles of the godesses a bit different, with Oria being given the powers of *both* the More and the Least (physical and immaterial) gifts of the Earth. In effect, Oria's cult would cover both the services that the Heortling cults of Ernalda and Esrola do, and that the Solar hegemony in Peloria managed to connect themselves to the goddesses of the land (as it seems every male-dominated culture has to do to survive) through Lodril rather than Yelm. But that leaves Dendara left as this - in my opinion - kind of anemic there-for-the-sake-of-being-there goddess, which I just find a bit... boring. But yeah, this does make the connection between Dendara-Wife-of-Yelm and Entekos of the Still Air even weirder. A bit of a sidetrack, anyhow. EDIT: Yar Gan is associated with the Pelandan/Oronini Blues, isn't he? And the Logicians? Sounds like some kind of theism-integrated western sorcerer entity. May or may not be connected to the Sea (they are interconnected around Oronin and the Sweet Sea).

I'm sure that table appreciated it. But congrats, I guess you're in the home stretch now?

It's made a bit more wonky by how Pelorian Oria and Dendera seem to have the same relationship to each others as Esrola and Ernalda (the physical, bountiful earth and the "earth" as expressed through familial bonds, filial piety, and crafts like weaving, etc.). So while it's tempting to try and shift Addi-Entekos around by referencing her connection to Dendara-the-Wife-of-Yelm - as Valare herself does - it's not super-helpful ALL the time, given Addi-Entekos' Air associations, etc. So in other words, as Qizilbash points out, we may be dealing with even more "Dendaras" than these two.... or however many there are. There's also the distinct possibility that not every "generation" (or sub-gradient) of goddess in the Entekosiad is directly translateable to other pantheons, much like not every subgradient of Malkion or the Pelorian God (Ezelveztay, Vezkarvez, etc.) is necessarily just another name for a common deity. Their "theologies"/myths may require steps which do not exist elsewhere, or they may skip steps that others make (sort of how the Heortlings do not have/entirely ignore the Yelm-Murharzam distinction and just give it a blank term of "The Emperor", and likewise some Dara Happan myths seem to conflate Umath and Orlanth, and in other aspects list different names for Orlanth as entirely different entities). So direct analogues aren't always doable.

It's possible that the elemental organization in the Entekosiad does not specifically align with the "orthodox" elemental scheme, we've seen in this before in Ralios, where Ehilm and Lodik were both present in the pantheon as equals and effectively separate elements. But, we do have have 5 goddesses, so we can't trick around by just adding one alternative, we would have to remove one. And removing the youngest, Air (which imho would be the easiest thing to do), isn't really an option considering Addi-Entekos as the goddess of airs. Sooo... just spitballing here... could Benbeng be some form of Uleria? EDIT: "5" goddesses.

I thought so too - but apparently there is one mention of cattle herding in Jolar (and Umathela, but I feel like that it's own thing). As Joerg mentioned, it might be an errant relic of a previous edition, not brought into line with current canon, or it might be a misunderstood reference to domesticated or wild wildebeest herds, or something else entirely. That being said, there are a few chapters in The Nuer that are still very evocative and useful beyond references to cattle herding, cattle decoration, cattle economics, cattle poetry, cattle raids, and so forth - the chapters on distance and time are incredibly good at getting across that "lived reality" that a lot of ethnography strives for - how it really feels to live on a massive plain and living according to the rhythm of the work and not some arbitrary fixed time unit, how magic and religion is incorporated into traveling and daily work, etc. There are also chapters on stuff like genealogy, totemism, religion, conflict arbitration, leadership dynamics and the horticulture that the Nuer practice during the wet season. A lot of it is quite dry, but for anyone looking to immerse themselves in that sort of environment, it's a solid tome. Other inspirations for the Doraddi might be looking up some stuff on the sedentary, horticultural Fur people (of the eponymous Darfur), and other Nilotic peoples. Khoi-San hunter-gatherers probably also provide some good insights (especially for those closer to the Nargan desert). That's about where my personal experience with Sub-Saharan ethnography ends, unfortunately, aside from some more contemporary stuff on adjusting to modernity and capitalism, which is less relevant to Glorantha specifically. EDIT: Obviously, talking about these as inspirations for fictional societies requires more sensitivity than when discussing Hallstatt Celts or Hittites, since the Nuer and San people are both very much still around, and very much critically engaged with the wider world, including some internet randos who are talking about potentially cribbing their cultural heritage and beliefs for a dice-rolling make-believe game.

Reminds me of "The Nuer", where anthropologist Evan-Pritchard admits in the foreword that he kinda went crazy because his informants never really wanted to talk about anything other than cattle, and how pretty much their entire society centred around cattle. Incidentally, The Nuer is possibly a good source for Doraddi inspirations, or at least for the Pamaltelan plains in general.

Same! For some really out-there, Indian-inspired goodness, I also recommend Grant Morrison's 18 Days", which is sort of a science-fantasy, magitech take on the Mahabharata (look for the artbook rather than the actual comic series, the former has much more detailed and exquisite art), and the (free!) webcomic Kill Six Billion Demons which is a bit like Hindu mythology meets Gnosticism and coming-of-age, hyperviolent martial arts manga. Both of these are unsuited for Glorantha as it is, but if you look at the artwork, and use it to imagine some parts of the Gods War (and thus Herquests and the like) I think they can be very engrossing. Then you have the artist Vsevolod Ivanov's otherworldly, part mythological, part speculative artworks of an imagined, fictionalized Slavic past. I believe it's been referenced by other fans of Glorantha in the past. It has that great otherworldly feel to it, like things look real enough, but there are parts that just make it all somewhat dreamlike. Sadly, it seems like his works have somehow become quite popular with some less savory parts of the Internet (the ones that tend to get overly obsessed in make-believe pasts and tie it to nationalism), but as art pieces in themselves they are great.