Sir_Godspeed

A teacher once told me to read sentences backwards through the paragraphs, as that makes mistakes easier to spot. If you just read it in a linear fashion, it's easier to fall into the flow of the text and miss mistakes. I've only had mixed success with the method myself, but maybe it could help you.

Perish the thought! What I meant thought, was that Pocharngo's cultists might have a similar mentality with regards to mutations as noted above. Hell, in some material even Chaos Spawn are regarded as "blessed" from the eyes of the ordinary Chaos Warriors, as they are free from mortal concerns and live only for destruction & carnage. *cough* Warhammer is... less subtle than Glorantha.

Pocharngo's cultists (victims?) sound a bit like Chaos Cultists from Warhammer. The Gods gives you blessings in the form of mutations, and the goal is to ascend to daemon princehood (at which point you're essentially an immortal demigod), but they can just as easily leave you a broken, swollen lump of mutations in the form of a Chaos Spawn, who are mostly just used for frontal assault or keeping around as extremely powerful guard dogs. Obviously, not all of this applies to Glorantha, but the aspirations and tragic fate sounds reminiscent. Then again, at some point the mind of the worshipper might be so gone that they would consider even the most horrible mutations another blessing.

I just noticed that too!

Joerg, I think that picking apart comments to comment on the individual sequences detracts somewhat from being able to look at the bigger picture. The Sky River Titan myth is not particularly pertinent to the comment I made, nor is the number of Norwegian words for snow or whatever (which is actually potentially infinite because of how compounding languages work, but that's besides the point). If my post's overall point was poorly made, I apologize, but I'm trying to keep things at least somewhat focused and can't really go into explaining how Kaupang was actually by Larvik, not Oslo, or how Mandarin also does compounding depending on transliteration, like in "Beijing" (Northern Capital). These do not really serve to get the larger points across, so will have to go undiscussed for now. Old English is Germanic. Lawspeaker is Anglisized Old Norse, which is as we all know also Germanic. Anyway, the point was that a lot of Greg's Orlanthi terms were made to sound either pseudo-Germanic or he and other writers straight up used terms borrowed from Germanic languages (most commonly modernized Old English). The ending "nth" is flavorful, I agree, but does not change the entire nature of the sound the language gives off. (There are also some strong deviations from this norm, like Pyjeemsab, which could be attributed to dialect differences, word borrowing, or just overall Gloranthan linguistic inconsistency, all of which I'm at peace with, generally). ------ Anyway, the use of this convention for the Orlanthi (perhaps Heortlings in particular) is convenient for English-speakers, since Old English carries certain connotations that you can play with, either using it to guide and help the readers' imagination, or to subvert the expectation to help them understand that they shouldn't take Glorantha's differences for granted. Doing this for someplace like Kralorela is more difficult. Using real-life Chinese, or faux-Chinese really only gets the point across to English (or German, or Norwegian, etc.)-speakers that "oh, so it's China, I get it", which may or may not be the result creators want. Altering the phonemes possible in Kralorelan place names might be an interesting take - but then we get the issue of a) whether this comes off as culturally insensitive, or b) whether it's simply too difficult and cost-ineffective in the long or short term. Worldbuilding is a craft, and crafting takes time and money. I generally agree with Joerg on the point that "what's there is there", though I believe there is lots of room to work in stuff in the large gaps that currently exist. Also, on the "there's 56 ethnicities in China" that has been brought up - let's not forget that Kralorela is the size of Sweden or California. Diversity, certainly, but the scale is smaller than our Eurasian referents.

I was a bit upset to see Creekstream River get noted as a ludicrous example, since I was delighted when I realized how it was a toponym that was logically built up from its surrounding toponymy, ie. it is a combination of eponymous waterways. This seemed like a great example of down-to-earth, solid place-naming of a practical, rugged people, and so helped made the world feel solid and tangible.* On the other side from Oslo in the Oslofjord lies a place called "Nesoddtangen", which in Norwegian translates roughly to "Promontory-Headland-Cape". So I guess I was somewhat primed for linguistic ridiculousness. What I DON'T want is every bloody Kralorelan place name to be translated to "TIGER/PHOENIX/DRAGON PLACE OF SERENE CONTEMPLATION AND WEIRDLY LIMITED ORIENTALIST VOCABULARY". The vast majority of places in Kralorela, just like anywhere else, is going to be called stuff like "Hill by the River", "Village by the Pond", "Mountain with Snow on the Top", "Hog Town", "Ruler's Fortress", "Place for Animal Slaughter", "Where Flowers Grow", "Row of Trees" etc. Personally, I think the train has long gone for a truly pseudo-sinic Kralorela in terms of language. This is simply due to Greg's consistent inconsistency. "Hsing-ren" or whatever is all fine and dandy, but it's a bit odd when you have it next to words with complex consonant clusters like "skr" and such (which I *think* is not even phonologically possible in Mandarin, though I could be wrong). Basically: throw in more decidedly non-sinic phonemes and sound. It's already non-consistent, so it doesn't really matter. I mean, does anyone here really think "Godunya" sounds "authentically" Chinese? Taktari? Yanoor? Anyway, I would like to add that there's been a lot of interesting ideas here, and perhaps even more importantly, a lot of critical and reflexive thinking and writing, with a lot of food for thought. (*There was some discussion earlier on language-use in Central and Western Genertela, and I felt like noting that Orlanthi/Heortling lands are definitely *heavily* steeped in pseudo-Germanic phonemes. Orlanth is basically a twisted version of "Erlend", a Scandinavian male name, and Ernalda has "ald", a Germanic name suffix. "Wyter" might be an imaginary word, but it sounds like it was literally copied off a page in the Domesday book or something. And then we have terms like Fyrd, Thane, Moot, Weapontake, etc. which are straight up literal Germanic terms. Nowadays some of this terminology is being phased out, and the art direction has moved from Dark Age England to a mix of Hellenic and Mycaenean Greece & Eastern Mediterranean. So a bit of a hodgepodge of influences, but overall serving to get across the kinds of cultures we're dealing with. I personally have *no* problem with terms like "Minister", or whatever being used in Kralorela. It surely can't be worse than calling the regional rulers of the World Council "Directors", or a leader of Pentan Horse Nomads "Sultan".)

Unless Gloranthan Plutonium has weirdly different properties than in real life - kinda like how refined Gloranthan lead doesn't make any sounds. Maybe Mostal was stocking weapons of mass destruction.

I am not aware of knots used in this particular manner, but Andean cultures (most famously the Inca empire) used knotted strings (called khipu or quipu) as ledgers for taxation and inventory purposes. It's possible that they also used it to transfer other kinds of information, but I'm not completely read up on it. EDIT: Not quite the same, but didn't some North American cultures use colored beads on strings as a form of "writing" too? That's another perfectly valid medium for map-making too.

Isn't a children's game connecting to the God Time an event in King of Dragon pass?

This thread hasn't really touched on thralls. I assume that a small-sized, settler clan probably doesn't have many thralls, but on the other hand, if the settling is supported by a larger polity, then they might send thralls there? Even promise manumission for thralls who go there, even?

I know extremely little about the "classic core" of Glorantha as well, since I came into this setting in a slightly odd way, with esoteric texts first and the nitty-gritty gaming material later, and mostly through second-hand sources (wiki, online discussions, free fan material, etc.) However, you're entirely right, Three-Eyed Piku has dwarf slaves in Kitor in Carmania. There is also a Piku who may (or may not?) belong to the Third Eye Blue in Apple Lane. Not sure about the relation. I'm also not sure if Piku of Kitor is an actual god or just a really powerful sorcerer. He is referred to as a god, apparently, but the distinction there can be vague, imho.

It's quite possible their visual design was intended to act as a way to subvert people's expectations with regards to racial distribution. Since the Third Eye Blue depicted in Six Ages are from the Storm Age (when the game takes place), it's difficult, if not impossible, to know what their relation to Modern Age Piku of Apple Lane is - at least for me. Blue skin, not blue skin, Zaranistangi or Danmalastans (or both?), etc. Lots of unknowns here. I don't think their journey is too marked by the blue moon though. Lots of Pelorian myths from the Entekosiad seems to mark Western "Logicians" with the color blue in some sense, which might mean a lot of things. It could be a reference to skin colors (there are both aquatic and surface people coming up the Janube who have blue skin colors, iirc) it can refer to some overall association with sorcery as blue (Zzabur's Blue Book, Malkion is often associated with blue, iirc, etc.), and lastly perhaps it's some kind of nagivational color, with blue representing the sunset, west, evening, etc. This is a bit odd coming from the God Time when the sky was always lit of course, but if what Joerg and others, including myself believe is true, then the Green Age actually did have a day-night cycle of *some* sort, so it might make sense. On the topic of Agimori, most of the cases we know arrived after the Dawn iirc, like the Men-And-Half and Pithdarans (I can't think of other groups off the top of my head.), though it's not like it would be impossible for them to travel north during the God Time.

Except, if I've understood Chaosium's current/forthcoming direction - Elmal has ALWAYS been Yelmalio, and everyone who believes otherwise is just invoking YGMV - but, please, *please* let us not take up blue moon real estate on yet another tail-chasing many suns discussion. Bollocks, you're right. They're not blue - rather the third eye they have painted/scarified in their forehead is blue, as is some of the accent colors on their clothing. Well, I meant it in a literary sense, but a literal sense works as well. Six Ages also show us Mostali out looting fallen Blue Moon bits. It's not much, but it adds to the info we have that says the Mostali views the Moon(s) as a part of the fully functioning World Machine. At least most dwarves in time, but who knows whether the Mostali were split on the issue during the Storm Age.

Six Ages isn't necessarily "canon" for non-Six Ages Gloranthan material (its Elmal depiction seems to clash with the current idea that Chaosium has of him, for example, but let's not go there in this thread), however it's the best depiction we've ever had of the Third Eye Blue. In that, they appear as blue-skinned Westerners/Sorcerers, but with African-esque looks (could be other regions). I'm tempted to think that Danmalstan's Original Peoples were racially diverse, either from the onset (in which case the idea of "biological" (runic?) descent from some iteration of Malkion is perhaps a post-hoc founding myth/legal fiction - which knowing the God Time doesn't necessarily make it untrue) - or that they integrated neighbors over time. This is a bit of an aside to the whole Blue Moon stuff, though admittedly the Blue Moon touches so much of Glorantha that it's virtually impossible to delineate it.

He's not associated with the Earth itself or its fertility, but rather the activity of working it. It's a gray area, I agree, but I'd like to think of him as the closest Air gets to Earth, rather than the opposite.

Gonna champion the single piece of Glorantha fiction that made it feel like an approachable universe for me: the excellent webcomic Prince of Sartar. It still has that "we're going to mention things without explaining them" thing going on that Gloranthan publications love, but it's a lot more reader-friendly in the sense that you don't have to understand them, just let them reinforce the atmosphere, if that makes sense. A bit like reading the Lord of the Rings. You don't need to know the full backstory of Ost-in-Edhil to enjoy the chapters of the Fellowship traveling through Eriador. Also the presence of so much artwork helps creating an immediate "feel" for the world that even several dozen pages can struggle to do.

Isn't it heavily implied that the Emperor is Yelm himself in Orlanthi sources, given that it's who Orlanth seeks out in the Underworld in the form of Maggotliege? You're probably right in that the name is never used.

Wagon forts are an widespread and ancient way of dealing with cavalry. If I recall correctly, Romans used it against Goths, and of course Boers used it against various enemies (who may or may not actually have been mounted).

As this discussion progresses into some potentially personally sensitive areas (ie- name-dropping named individuals, including people who might be lurking, discussions of cultural sensitivity, etc.), I hope we'll keep continue to generally assume that everyone involved here, however passionate, has honest intentions. Hopefully this isn't considered backseat modding. On another note, I agree with the comments about internal power balance plays by @metcalph, and as @scott-martin mentioned, the Guide does hint towards a more tumultous history than what the current regime wants to admit (I just wish we had more examples of how that plays out in daily life and such.) On the topic of crime lords and secret brotherhoods (a common trope of orientalist literature), it might be noteworthy that while this trope feels out of place in a Bronze Age-inspired setting, we DO HAVE crime cults in Central Genertela as well, whether Thanatar, Vivamort, Krasht, Ogres or whoever. (This is outside what I'm read up on, but that's the impression I'm getting), so it's not entirely inappropriate for Glorantha itself.

Hm. Does this mean they worship Lodril over Barntar? Or does Barntar fall under Orlanth?

I remember a while back some people here talking about the cultural consequences of Ignorance and troll-ruled lands in the north. Some people proposed that the Kralorelans would have integrated certain trollish practices or at least wares, such as having more bug-products in their cuisine and material culture. Someone mentioned for examples giant beetle wings used for building material (windows?). Anyway, I thought it was worth mentioning it, since it's one of those things that spin organically from Glorantha itself rather than being mechanically inserted into the world. Sure, you can argue that the upper classes would have been opposed to that, but the same arguments are true for Orlanthi and Pelorians, and we know very well that Pelorians styles in textules, pottery and art have been adopted by Orlanthi living around the basin for hundreds of years. While I agree with this sentiment, I think it's very interesting that this point has never seen to be raised about Pamaltela. No one seems to have these same stereotype-neuroses about Sub-Saharan African cultures in Glorantha. Not sure why... maybe it's just because it feels like there is more "going on" in Pamaltela, or that the Doraddi and Fonritan cultures feel less cut&paste (although I'm not sure if that is objectively true), or maybe it's because there is already an implicit awareness of negative African stereotypes. ---------- Personally, I think an outlining of the historical cultural origins and sources of influence could be useful for writers. As @Joerg mentioned above, Kralorela has different "currents"/"streams" of cultural practices from the God Time: the Solar/Mystical Vithelan civilization (Abzered, etc.), the Hsunchen animal totem peoples, the Draconic Enlightenment Mystical (and arguably Administrative?) tradition, and arguably Uz traditions from the north. There are more, of course, with Yellow Elves in Fethlon and a Malkioni invasion followed by a Pentan invasion, but the aforementioned are the big ones. What this means in practice I'll leave people to think more about, but with those sources in place, it might be easier to see how different regions, different classes, different people over times have variously dipped their feet more or less in multiple streams at once, and syncretism, suppression, obselence and innovation has worked alongside each other.

I seem to remember someone here saying that "Ernalda" might even originally be a Sairdite Dawn Age name for the Earth Queen Goddess that got spread and mainstreamed within Council lands? I wonder how name varieities like Ir, etc. fare against that. Whether they represent name differences (ie. "Dieu" vs. "God"), or are kennings of the god in the same language ("Ancient of Days" vs. "The Allmighty") or might even represent slight cultic variety over the same general theme.

Well, they weren't Heortlings yet, but true. Perhaps equally importantly, Orlanth is associated with the Ram in the Descent of the Mountain myth (where other gods are similarly associated with related animals, Urox Bull, etc.)

This Vorios fella, aside from simply being a thunder god/demigod, might serve as some kind of beefed-up version of Voriof/Orlanth-as-a-Shepherd, to account of the larger focus on and tradition of sheepherding in this area. Aside from lots of which has already been mentioned, would there be a greater influence of Odayla and Aldrya here, given the the vast forests to the west (and to a lesser degree south)? Also, would Urox's mythical role be broader considering the proximity to greatly bull-influenced Storm cultures, or would he be very narrow considering the existential Chaos threat? Are both possible, perhaps? More Stormbull sub-cults than among Heortlings?

CIIIIIIRCLE OF LIIIIIIFE!!