Minlister

@7Tigers Oh, yes, indeed, hardly a Copernican revolution!! I just want to confront my players with this problem when they have dealing with the Morokanths. And being hunted in the Praxian wastes by man-heaters is something else! But you are right, the simple fact that they think they are man-eaters could suffice. Also, all the winners of the Waha compact eat the losers on a regular basis, so why not the Morokanths?

As far as I am concerned, the following points changed for the moment: 1. the kinslaying problem is tied to bloodlines and not to rituals, social, ties (e.g. if you kill a cousin who doesn't belong to your clan, it is kinslaying). 2. I will make the dragonrise fail as I don't like its "draco ex machina" quality and also because most of the players will expect it to happen and plan accordingly. 3. The Enjossi have a secret to leap the Skyfall and reach the Skydome. 4. Argrath Whitebull is an Eurmali joke. 5. There is a cult belinving that dragons are the space between the runes, allowing their differentiation and interactions in the creation process. The dragons then became the strands of the Great Compromise web. In their vision, Arachne Solara is the wyrmweaver. 6. Elmal is the former Yelmalio who embraced freedom, Yelmalio is the tatters of his former self, still conscious and active. A divine, sentient, moult. The lingering light of a dead star. So both are alive and competing. And Elmal is losing, exemplifying the dilemma between freedom and power. 7. Morokanths are definitely flesh eaters. 8. Vingas are red-head because when Vinga first took arms to defend Orlanth's stead, she took and old rusty helm and the rust colored her hair. Obviously, not a world-changing variation...

@Joerg said yes, that was my question. Indeed your point about the non-human populations and genii locorum is very good, but non-human worship is still worhip. And in the case of the Lady of the Wild, for instance, would she be able to help with agriculture? Or would there be some kind of conflict between her and the cult of Ernalda trying to tame the wilds, otherwise unfit for agriculture? Should the growth of, let's say wheat and barley, be seen as a "natural thing" or only as a bounty of Ernalda/Esrolia, a secret given to mend the world after the Great Darkness? We could also use cattle-herding in Prax as a parallel. If I understand correctly, and if I simplify a little, without the Peaceful cut the slain animals won't be able to return and in the end the herds would be depleted. So should we consider also that without proper Earth rituals, the land could end up "depleted"? And consider magic as necessary to "tie the loop" of growth, death and rebirth? Once more, what I am interested in is opportunity for writing gaming situations and background for scenarios.

@Sir_Godspeed Yes, of course, I do not intend to produce statistics about yearly yields by terrain type. My interest lies in the in-game consequences of the various options. If magic really adds to a natural process otherwise similar to the RW, then human density should be far greater with distinct social consequences, for example. And if agriculture is tied to sacrifices and devotion, then reversion to wild lands when humans leave an area would be faster. An enemy disrupting holy days, or targeting the Earth or Barntar priesthood could provoke important economic problems, even famine. In the RW, destruction of crops and trees, especially olives and wineyards, was perpetrated to achieve this goal, so we would have a "magic world" equivalent, for instance. Similarly, in the process of the Resettlement, the importance of the Earth cult would have been even greater, with potential implications on the power balance in Sartar on the long run. Nothing revolutionary obviously, but this is the kind of aspects which are of interest to me, not a strict concern for economy.

@g33k Ok, it is also workable. Natural process gives the same results, good and bad magic cancel each other and we are left with a situation in which we can use RW parallels. Personally, I prefer the necessary magic, but I could work with that also.

@Ian Absentia Sorry I made a mistake in the first post. My own take would be opposite, I prefer to admit that magic is necessary for the smooth running of the natural order, perpetually mending what was broken during the God wars and Great Darkness. It feels more "Gloranthan" to me and, as I say, I can still use what I know of the real world as magic produces an equivalent, not an improved version of RW bronze age. But I see your point. Thanks!

Some time ago, we had a discussion on demography (I honestly don't remember why or where, probably in some thread that had initially nothing to do with it, that's the beauty of the forum). Someone, I think it was @Qizilbashwoman argued for a stronger demography in Glorantha than in the RW because of magic (not only thanks to healing magic for humans but thanks to better crops, herd blessing etc). Now in the RQG section, someone mentions the fact that "Every field will be blessed (Bless Crops), Every breeding animal will be blessed (Bless Animal). So my question would be the following: how do you envision the relation between natural process and magic in Glorantha? Should we admit that nature works the same as in the RW and magic improves these results. Or should we consider that there is no (or a less efficient version of the) natural process and that magic is necessary to reach the RW results. So does a Gloranthan field produces the same harvest as its RW bronze age equivalent, and then we add the effects of magic; or does the Gloranthan earth yields very little without the proper rites? My own take would be the second proposition as it is more satisfactory from the point of view of the internal logic of the universe and because it allows us to continue to use RW analogies to supplement information found in the rules and background. But I am curious about other opinions on the matter. EDIT : Eurmal made me do it!! I took the opposite side I intended to!! I just corrected it in red ! Sorry, Ian!

@lordabdul yes, that is what I wanted to refer to with the allusion to the American Gothic picture and parochial mentality. But the more liberal a society, and Orlanthi society is extremely liberal, the less social pressure is likely to bear upon individuals. Nonetheless, yes, it is a good card to play as a GM. As for the many boxes which are still boxes, I 100% agree, even if still, the more option offered by a society the less drama opportunities to stage in game. And the thoughts about weregild and chieftains sons of chieftains raised an interesting issue: how fluid is really Orlanthi society? Maybe also, in the post-dragonrise setting, a good background theme could be the rise of more authoritarian leaders and mores, as every ounce of energy is enlisted against the Lunars. In a way the evolution from a collection of clan fyrds to a proper Sartarite army, indispensable to wage the Hero Wars, could be pitted against the traditional "No one can make you do anything". We know all too well "more security at the [so little] price of less freedom", but Sartarite could experience a "more efficiency at the price of less freedom" kind of crisis, with the PCs on the fence in front of Argrath's demands. By the way, if anybody is reading French, I strongly advice the reading of Jaworski's Roi du Monde, a series of novels about a Gaul warrior. By far the best rendition of an "Orlanthi-like" society I have read (even if we discard Celtic elements).

@Jeff I understand perfectly and I do the same with mine but what I meant was from a "structural" point of view. Of course, in the way Orlanthi society applies its value there is plenty of space for conflict, pettiness, vice and abuse of the weak by the strong. But I find them too "clean shaven" as a civilization, too much an ideal-type of the "good natured savage" or "noble savage". I find the Praxian or the Esrolian Matriarchy more balanced, without even speaking of the Lunars. Nonetheless it remains that S:KoH is by far the best RPG book I have ever read.

Thanks everybody! Yes, propensity for violence is one obvious answer, even if in a heroic context, it is not such an obvious one. Is head-hunting still a thing know that we have sailed away from Celtic models? Culbrea head-hunters are still mentioned in Armies and Enemies of Dragon Pass. I must say that when I discovered Glorantha, not so long ago I was particularly struck by the the Tarsh in Flames supplement, with its fascinating balance between the lunarized elite and new capital and at the same the very violent, old, bloody Earth cults. That felt very real. And, yes, parochial mind can also be played very well in a "American Gothic" kind of theme... Tight community can indeed be very suffocating. And yes, the outlaw system is paramount to death for most people. Unequal wergild is more tricky, because inequality in status only become a real problem when social mobility is scarce, which should not be the case in such a violent society. I had more issue with the gender inclusive thing as the Orlanthi society seemed to me strongly binary in its myth; I would have prefer to give the all-inclusive moral virtues to the Lunars as it fits them perfectly and would have given them a specific positive side to stage as GM [Once more it is an in-game line of thought, don't skin alive for it]. The point is there is not a lot of things Sartarite PC could rebel against in their own society, that's a pity. I think that may be the reason why I prefer the 1602-1625 period as a playground. Less epic and more human issues. Only my pesonal taste obviously.

It seems to me that there is a tendency to make Orlanthi society a "perfect, gender-inclusive, land of the brave and home of the free where the paramount importance of individual freedom is tempered by a deep sense of responsibility and everybody is eating free-range cattle and organic wheat and using a sustainable rune magic economy (not to mention Issaries spell fair-trade)". Before anyone has the temptation to jump to my throat I stress that I am all for these values in the real world. But does it make sense in a fictional world? How can we play in an interesting way the encounter between Orlanthi and Lunar ways if we polish one to moral perfection? So my question would be: what are, from your point of view, the "dark and mean streaks of the Orlanthi society" that are worth staging for the sake of a good, balanced, game"?

@jajagappa God! That is exegesis!! THANKS!!

@Jeff Well, I doubt it will work on the Athenian and the Thracian, but, of course, I see your point, very "We are all us". This reminds me the beautiful Flaubert sentence "The gods being no more and Christ not having yet come, there was a time from Cicero to Marcus Aurelius when there was only man" (les dieux n'étant plus et Christ n'étant pas encore, il y eut un temps, de Cicéron à Marc Aurèle, où l'homme seul a été". (from memory so maybe slightly mistaken)

And then the Roman calls the legion and win the argument

THANKS Martin! That's a very selection, it will help a lot to convey the bronze age feeling and Gloranthan diversity to the players!

would an Undead Wasp rider become a zombee?

Transmission of names often follow rules more or less strictly; for example, first son named after the paternal grand-father, second after the maternal grand-father, so many cousins, grand-sons of a Vargast, would be called Vargast. I would also expect a cottar receiving land to plow from a thane to name his first son born on this land after his "benefactor", so a thane named Vargast settling many cottars could launch a "naming trend" in the neighborhood. So yes, the "solution" stands in the nicknames because first names are more of a group marker. I also like a lot the status of "named men" in Abercrombie's novels, the first step in a successful warrior's life being the acquisition of a "war nickname". I shall use it in my campaign. Nonetheless, I see Jeorg"s point. 450 Varmandi, so around 220 males, in their early twenties, maybe 25% of that considering that medieval population had often 50% of people less than 20 years old. So it would make 55 people, but to be a leader at this age, he would probably belong to the thane class so 7% in Jeff's table. So 3-4 people are concerned. Still two young war leader called Vargast, son of Vargast are possible, probably close kin as thanes lineages probably have specific name stocks. In our case, my fictional money would be on the herder being a dependent/client of the the family of the mercenary chief.

yes, sorry, I was not clear, I meant I think these are very big cities (and yes, I put aside Boldhome considering its peculiar topography, basically a closed valley occupied by various settlements more than a city) considering the demography of their hinterland (the Lunar empire is around 6.5 MM if I remember well?). So should we also envision most of these cities with huge open spaces inside the walls, like the enclosed hunting grounds of Mesopotamian kings, and enormous temple precinct without inhabitants ? No sarcasm or hidden criticism here, just a question to be able to visualize the type of urban landscape what you have in mind. EDIT: to be clear, I do not consider that the forbidden city for the Red Emperor can be seen as one of those underpopulated area, palatial zones are very densely populated usually considering they are multi-layered.

@Jeff Thank you, yes, I realize that it is a big area; just saying that in my mind, I envisioned it even bigger, because of pasture and hunting area. Constantinople (theodosian landwalls) was ca. 1500 ha, so pretty close. But, yes, it is true that walking from Haghia Sophia to the landwall is quite a stroll. Thanks also a lot for the data on the other Gloranthan cities, although I think some of them seem a little bit out of line with the population numbers but it is a magic world after all, no real issue with that.

@Rick Meints Thanks a lot! Of course, in the end, I always make my own mind when playing at my own table, but I was interested nonetheless, as I have something I would like to translate for the JC and as it would be used by other, I'd rather keep in line with the official line's choice.

@Jeff I have a small question about the new "Pavis and BR book". Are you (or the Chaosium team more broadly) keeping the size of the BR as it was in P:GtA or do you consider adopting the vast scale introduced in Ian Thompson"s companion series? Or a third option? I, personally, am more comfortable with the "big one", considering the amount of places of interest, people and factions, but I was wondering what would be the "canonical" position. Thanks you in advance!

Thanks Martin, but yes, no rush at all, obviously! Do it only if you can find solace and/or distraction in work.

@M Helsdon yes, of course, sorry of I was not clear, I just used this picture as an example of the kind of lay-out for the picture I envisioned. Earlier on the thread, you have shown very nice similar rows of pictures if I remember well.

Thank your for considering it Martin! Yes, pages with rows of small figures would be perfect! Something along the lines of the picture I insert it, from HQG. I don't think the images have to be very big as we can always zoom on the pdf when showing to the players a specific image. Even if the definition is not perfect, that would still a huge visual asset for the games. I read the book on a screen so I am not sure I realize the exact size of the picture, but half their current size should be good? Or only a selection of the unit more directly involved in Dragon Pass?

@M Helsdon So well deserved!! I am a tenured professional medievalist with interest in military history and I am truly impressed by the quality of your work; it is not only the sheer amount of data from the RW you processed but the way you managed to blend it into a Gloranthan-flavored new whole. Your initial M should stand for masterpiece! EDIT : maybe the only thing I am missing is one or two double pages with all the drawings put together: it would be easier to show the right one to the players during play but that is a spoiled brat's wish!!