Lunar Blues (again)

[Joerg]

Carried over from the Beginner's Box thread:

 

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Wooohoo you're citing your references now?  

Yes, and that's a good indication I should move this away from the thread titled "Beginner's Guide". Well past high time, really.

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

(I'm teasing but I guess most of the time you must be reciting from memory, which is why you don't mention the sources? It's super useful when you do mention them though!)

I did create an index to all the Glorantha material available to me at the time in the nineties and kept working on it into the Heroquest 1 era, so if this may come across as slightly encyclopedic, it was at the time. We didn't have any electronic documents back then, "and we had to travel five miles uphill to school, and then eight miles uphill back home..."

Most of the deities have too many mentions in the old sources, but this one remains memorable to me as the one opportunity I had to baffle Sandy Petersen with a piece of Gloranthan troll lore.

 

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Now that I'm looking into this a bit more, I realise that the many suns of Glorantha don't have the monopoly on confusing multitudes... So for instance, there's also a whole bunch of moon goddesses.

Yes. They usually sported distinct celestial bodies, except for the Storm Age Blue Moon which was somewhat overcrouded. The Artmali disembarked, but Lesilla went down with most of it like a good ship's captain, while Annilla held those mystical energies aloft until she followed Lorion down Magasta's Pool.

 

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

The "blue moon" is just one aspect of the moon in general -- we mostly know the moon as "Sedenya" just because that's how she was reborn in Time and that's how the Lunars call her now (mainly), but she had a whole bunch of names and faces before that.

Also celestial bodies. I have seen a mention of Artia as a moon in some obscure document, which led me to the question "What makes a celestial body a moon?"

Neither the RQ Daily nor the Lore Auction at Convulsion 1994 really resulted in a definitive answer. One thing they seem to hold in common is female or indeterminate sex,, though.

(But then, for all the stories about Yelm's marriage contest, and his sons by Dendara or other goddesses and demi-goddesses,Yelm itself remains an asexual orb in the sky, remote from carnal interaction, and probably incapable of any. Kargzant, on the other hand is a stallion, and presumably hung like one, too.)

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Ok, sure. But strangely enough, GtG (p648) doesn't list "Lesilla" as a name for the blue moon, even though that's the name GS (p147) uses when they talk about that time Dara Happan Emperor Lukarius shot her down from the sky and she crashed onto her own city of Mernita (he was pissed that they were worshipping something else than the proper sun god... that's how the Blue Moon Plateau was formed).

That's one story from Dara Happa. Plentonius himself provides a much bowdlerized "imperial justice" version in his account of Lukarius' reign, though.. (GRoY p.24)

Quote

 Their  erratic  sun,  flailing  and  sputtering,  was dragged  from  the  sky  by  the  Justice  of  the  gods.  Sedenya crashed from the sky upon her own worshippers, destroying their city entirely.

When he lets Lukarius string his bow with his own umbilical, what he shoots down are boarders from the Styx ships (Kogag's boat trolls fleeing from Yelm Bijiif?).

Other myths tell about the Storm Gods having a ball game with the blue moon. Sounds like the Blue Moon plateau is where one of them produced a touchdown that destroyed the ball.

 

The Zaranistangi of Melib claim descent from Emilla, "a female incarnation of Mastakos" (duh, Sea Tribe, what would you expect?) (Guide p.433, and yes, when I give page numbers I usually look that stuff up.) But then, the Dara Happans think that that planet is female Uleria anyway, so even less of a surprise, except that she let her children crall all over her body. How much moon/Sedenya is there in Orlanth's charioteer? Is Jagrekriand smashing his chariot on the LBQ just ongoing sibling rivalry between the Red Planet and Blue Moon twins?

 

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

The Dara Happans then figured the place was inhabited by the "demon" Annilla (GtG p346) so I guess everything is a matter of perspective... but from GtG (p674) it seems that, when Mernita was a thing, Lesilla/Annilla was called Verithurusa, and is more described like some kind of land goddess? (in GtG p95 she is "lord of the North").

Glorious ReAscent makes it even worse. Jernedeus is toted as another name of Verithurus, and Jernedeus is the orb in the sky (or above the ziggurat) guardian deity of Mernita while Lesilla is the nurturing goddess. A key lunar power is Madness, and at tumes like this it shows.

Which may be insightful of Plentonius, or a weird relocation from Mount Jernotius, or Old Plentonius fusing those traditions into a single story.

His master's family wyter Khor is named as one of the earlier names of Sedenya.

("It's so dreamy,
times are fleeting,
Madness
takes its toll"...)

 

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

And to add more confusion, Verithurusa is listed as one of the 7 moon goddesses of the Lunars, which also lists Lesilla. Is it me or does it look like the Lunars effectively appropriated a bunch of goddesses from previous cultures, declared those goddesses as different faces of the same moon goddess, and that's how they got more people to join their ranks?

100% correct.

And totally wrong.

The Lunar Empire employs two aspects of the Blue Moon goddess in its magical ranks - the Assassins, and the Blue Moon School. Neither are subject to the phases of the Red Moon. There doesn't seem to be an dependence on the tides, though, either.

Then there are the six classes of the Lunar College of Magic, which have become associated with the phases of the Red Moon, and certainly are subject to its cycles.

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

But wouldn't that have been a problem since Lesilla/Anilla/Verithurusa worshippers and Dara Happan people hate each other?

Dara Happan peoples hate each other. Nothing new in that.

Three of the four rebels in Jar-eel's presentation of the slaying of Yelm are Dara Happan entities - Verithurusa, Tolat Shargash, and (Artia?) the Bat.

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Yet they must have fought together against the Carmelians, unless my timeline is wrong? (maybe the Lunars are just that good at negotiation?)

The Carmanians were the oppressive emperors of the day. The metropolises of riverine Dara Happa supported them while they were stron, then rebelled when it was clear the Carmanians were seriously challenged by this new power. Nothing new under the sun, happened before, happened again under Jannisor and Sheng Seleris, and will in all likelihood repeat under Sheng Seleris.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

this is ... sort of oversimplifying things. the Darsenians are a pretty small Pelandran matriarchal society living in a very distant region and their wealthy and more powerful riverside kinfolk share their culture but are patriarchal. Some of their religious practices were expropriated by the Dara Happans before the Dawn and there's been 1600 years of adaptation and change. In that time, there's obviously been a lot of cultural adjustment.

The Darsenites were the place where the myth about the White Queens and the usurpation of Yelm Brightface survived the subsequent re-writing of history. They aren't quite Pelandan - Darsen lies significantly east of Mount Jernotius, which forms the border.

That specific connection may have played a significant role in Teelo Estara (or did she change her name after Castle Blue?) choosing that region to raise up into the sky as her new celestial body.

I am fairly certain that the area now encircled by the Crater used to be heavily populated agricultural land, and I don't recall reading anything about anyone being evacuated from the site. Did any of those people survive the transition into the Middle Air? Did they form the initial normal population of the cities on the moon?

 

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

They're much more likely to side with the Dara Happans against the Carmanians, who are Malkioni weirdos who share literally nothing with them.

By this time, the Carmanians were run by the bull dynasty, and had better than 400 years of history of their syncretic culture, and had been subject to the Jernotian way, and Natha.

 

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Are you talking about the Darsenites? (they're nowhere near the Blue Moon plateau, I'm not sure what they have to do with anything). I can't see anything about "Darsenians" otherwise.

They used to be the (or at least a) dominant Pelorian culture before the rivers invaded and the riverine metropolises flourished under Murharzarm. True, they were closer to Mt. Jernotius than to Mernita, but since the guardian deity of Mernita is given as Jernedeus and not Verithurus(a), both these places appear to look towards the same protector deity.

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Either way, sure, there was some time between the two events, but it's probably hard to forget when those people dropped a whole planet onto your ancestors. I guess it depends on whether the political/religious leaders at any given time want to actually use that or not to gain or consolidate power.

About the only people not with a claim to putting down the Blue Moon were the Artmali, and even they may have accompanied Annilla's (second) plunge after her husband with their thoughts and prayers, provided the bleakness of the Greater Darkness had left them with any.

There is another impact site in at Croesium (leaving a little crater, with the city in its center) in Pomons, in southern or rather eastern Loskalm, the former city of Varganthar (the Dawn Age enemy of Talor). Syranthir most surely had followers from around here when he fled after losing to Arimadalla, so the Carmanians may have been descended from both Blue Moon-related barbarians and from their Malkioni foes.

 

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

I guess the Carmanians were a bigger threat and so there was not point in bringing up old bad blood.

There is rarely a point to bringing up old bad blood, it just happens. But old antagonisms would have existed between alongside the newer ones between all the groups involved.

To the Dara Happan metropolites, no emperor is worse than an evil and bad emperor, but when a better candidate is in sight, even the Yelmic families there will change allegiances and oppose the incumbent.

 

The incumbent that Deezola and her cabal rebelled against, Bisodakar, was a bull shah, descended from storm worshiping pastoralists (and it doesn't really matter whether from Enjoreli origins of soldiers accompanying Syranthir or from local natives from Vanstal and the Charg Hills, or both) rather than the more solar lion shahs (who had descended from a Dara Happan emperor marrying the  daughter of Shah Nadar the Avenger (a Natha worshiper) to overcome the EWF. He (as most bull shahs) apparently was supported by the Spolite darkness worshipers who had some grudge against the Dara Happan solars (and vice versa). That said, Bisodakar's father was a lot more Dara Happan-friendly than his grandfather Cartavar, and had ascended to emperorhood by correctly taking the Ten Tests.

It isn't quite clear to me how and why Bisodakar was such a bad foe to Rinliddi, other than establishing Carmanian authority and replacing local high nobility there. The author of the Zero Wane history is as baffled as I am.

[davecake]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yelm itself remains an asexual orb in the sky, remote from carnal interaction, and probably incapable of any.

 Berneel Arashagern is of course a part of Yelm, isn’t really a ‘dragon’ deity* as the Golden Dragon claimed, but Yelm as husband to Dendara (and Yelm as father). So the orb in the sky may be asexual, but Yelm  has a mighty ‘serpent’, with whom he fathered many deities. 

I don’t think they talk about this much in any public Yelm rite, but I think it is more explicitly acknowledged in the (associate cults etc) shared rites with Dendara. Don’t be believing all that ‘Yelm is sexless and high and pure and misogynist’ stuff that creepy old uncle Plentonius tries to sell you. 

*except in that secret Darudic ‘the dragon is Kundalini’ way maybe. There are mysteries still. 

[Joerg]

10 minutes ago, davecake said:

 Berneel Arashagern is of course a part of Yelm, isn’t really a ‘dragon’ deity* as the Golden Dragon claimed, but Yelm as husband to Dendara (and Yelm as father). So the orb in the sky may be asexual, but Yelm  has a mighty ‘serpent’, with whom he fathered many deities. 

A separated aspect of Yelm is a mighty serpent.

But then I don't think anybody needs to be convinced that Yelm is a dick. The discussion is mainly about how useful that fact is in interaction with goddesses.

And "stick it where the sun doesn't shine" doesn't quite work for old Brightface... Even Yelmalio might have ontological problems with that one.

10 minutes ago, davecake said:

I don’t think they talk about this much in any public Yelm rite, but I think it is more explicitly acknowledged in the (associate cults etc) shared rites with Dendara. Don’t be believing all that ‘Yelm is sexless and high and pure and misogynist’ stuff that creepy old uncle Plentonius tries to sell you. 

I do think that there was some mystical separation from earlier urges for Yelm to become emperor of the (known) universe. The perfect emperor needs to remain aloof. Hence the imperfections, the incarnated aspects, like Murharzarm.

Yelm became his own Antirius, only hot.

10 minutes ago, davecake said:

*except in that secret Darudic ‘the dragon is Kundalini’ way maybe. There are mysteries still. 

Yelm as a sensation?

[Sir_Godspeed]

Well... sunlight literally makes plants grow... The orb might be asexual, but the rays might not be.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Qizilbashwoman]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Jernedeus is toted as another name of Verithurus, and Jernedeus is the orb in the sky (or above the ziggurat) guardian deity of Mernita while Lesilla is the nurturing goddess. A key lunar power is Madness, and at tumes like this it shows.

I've long wondered about the significance of the Entekosiad's story of how Mount Jernotius was raised by Re Dala Ma (perhaps Gata?) after they were persecuted.

If Jernedeus was the Darsenian version of the "orb above the settlement" so infamous from pre-Dawn Dara Happa, that certainly raises and answers a lot of questions about this story and the Jernotian Council and Daxdarius. It also explains the reluctance of the Potter's Third Child to seeing Jaga Natha as a religious ally of Daxdarius...

[Bill the barbarian]

Ooo mama, can this really be the end...
To be stuck inside of Tulsa with the Lunar Blues again!

Makes one wonder if Greg Stafford ever visited Bob and the Band at Big Pink in Woodstock?

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

("It's so dreamy,
times are fleeting,
Madness
takes its toll"...)

and I was wondering if this was where Joerg was gong... until I read that...

Cheers

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The orb might be asexual, but the rays might not be.

no wonder uz hate the Burner, jizz just everywhere and nobody seems to care

[Ali the Helering]

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

 

Makes one wonder if Greg Stafford ever visited Bob and the Band at Big Pink in Woodstock?

Hate to be a pain, but Bob and the Band were on the Isle of Wight when many others were at Woodstock. 

[Bill the barbarian]

On 8/20/2019 at 1:21 PM, Ali the Helering said:

Hate to be a pain, but Bob and the Band were on the Isle of Wight when many others were at Woodstock. 

Actually Bob and the Band lived at Woodstock in Big Pink, and while Woodstock was not happening in Woodstock (It happened at Yasgar's Farm, x number of miles away), they might well have been playing at the Isle of Wight. I was not at either unlike billions of others. Bob and company, possible being at one or the other but just definitely living in Woodstock, where Woodstock was not.

Clear

If not, I blame the Brown Blotter, I hear it was a bummer.

Cheers

Edited August 22, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Ali the Helering]

10 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Actually Bob and the Band lived at Woodstock in Big Pink, and while Woodstock was not happening in Woodstock (It happened at Yasgar's Farm, x number of miles away), they might will have been playing at the Isle of Wight. I was not at either unlike billions of others. Bob and company, possible being at one or the other but just definitely living in Woodstock, where Woodstock was not.

Clear

If not I blame the Brown Blotter, I hear it was a bummer.

Cheers

GodLearner🎸

[davecake]

On 8/20/2019 at 7:16 PM, Joerg said:

A separated aspect of Yelm is a mighty serpent.

Just like other once separated aspects of Yelm, represent powers like terrestrial fire, Justice and rulership, and so on. Now they are no longer separated, but combined. 

On 8/20/2019 at 7:16 PM, Joerg said:

I do think that there was some mystical separation from earlier urges for Yelm to become emperor of the (known) universe. The perfect emperor needs to remain aloof. Hence the imperfections, the incarnated aspects, like Murharzarm.

They are always going on about that stuff, Dara Happan religion evolves and changes far more than they admit. But they also exaggerate it. As I said - maybe they don't talk about Yelms fertility much in most civic rituals, but the fertility powers are much in evidence in Dendara rituals etc. 

Yelm is not Dayzatar. He can interact with his wife in appropriate ways. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

I agree - he's the Patriarch, the Father, and he's got his Wife. If we go beyond ReAscent, he even has multiple wives, as well as concubines. I'm not sure if "emanated" is ever used in relation to him begetting children, though it definitely is when speaking of the higher heaven gods like Dayzatar or Aether (iirc.).

 

8 hours ago, davecake said:

Just like other once separated aspects of Yelm, represent powers like terrestrial fire, Justice and rulership, and so on. Now they are no longer separated, but combined. 

 

I'm going to assume these are still worshipped separately in various contexts and by various people since that's usually the way things go in Glorantha.

[Bill the barbarian]

On 8/21/2019 at 12:48 AM, Ali the Helering said:

GodLearner🎸

Tremble with fear, a godlearning barbarian.

RUN AWAY!

[davecake]

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'm going to assume these are still worshipped separately in various contexts and by various people since that's usually the way things go in Glorantha.

Of course, Yelm;s worship varies considerably depending on where you are. The Six Parts of Yelm is very much a Dara Happan doctrine. 

In the Heartlands/Dara Happa they are worshipped both separately and sometimes together (mostly at big state rites). I think Dara Happans would recognise they are they are all, conceptually, parts of Yelm but distinguish the different Rites. Of course only a tiny elite are direct initiates of the Yelm cult, but the Enverinus cult is very common and presides over sacrifices and cremations for both Lodril and Yelm cults (and is mostly commoners). Antirius is recognised as a sub-cult of Yelm dedicated to Justice. I think Berneel Arashagern is invoked during the (many) rites that recognise Dendara as the wife of Yelm. And so on. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Berneel Arashagern

ah yes, the sublime dick of Yelm, hahahaha