quick Thinobutan nerd question

[Qizilbashwoman]

This is kind of a minor question but:

What is the origin of the Thinobutans? They end up in Masko-Elamle but they start out a specific distinct ethnic group way out at sea.

* They're not blue-skinned - they're mocked as blueskins because apparently they like woad, but are specifically not, but I can't find much evidence of their origin. I am really confident they aren't displaced Theyalans ("Worlanthi").

* They are discussed in Pamaltela

* I'm not sure they are Agimori, they might be Easterners or something.

Does anyone have any idea? I'm just curious because I'm kind of confused even after reading a bunch of books.

@Joerg? @jajagappa

[Joerg]

23 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

This is kind of a minor question but:

What is the origin of the Thinobutans? They end up in Masko-Elamle but they start out a specific distinct ethnic group way out at sea.

* They're not blue-skinned - they're mocked as blueskins because apparently they like woad, but are specifically not, but I can't find much evidence of their origin. I am really confident they aren't displaced Theyalans ("Worlanthi").

* They are discussed in Pamaltela

* I'm not sure they are Agimori, they might be Easterners or something.

Does anyone have any idea? I'm just curious because I'm kind of confused even after reading a bunch of books.

@Joerg? @jajagappa

Thinobutu was an island north or northeast of Pamaltela (in a time when the God Learner maps tell us that that region was Yellow Elf jungle).

They have their own creation myth, of how the Creator Soli or Masdoumari lifted their island (or possibly the whole world) out of the Sea, then made the eight ancestors, two paiirs of men and women from four different types of Clay which then went and had offspring in every possible combination of clays.

The stories are in Revealed Mythologies, p.56 onward.

They are of "agimori racial type" despite having a rather wide spectrum of skin tones, generally lighter than those of the Doraddi, Pithdarans or Men-and-a-Half. Personally, I would make them the skin tone equivalent of Polynesia and New Guinea.

 

We only have fragmented stories of emigration to intermediate kingdoms as Serelazam, the Doom Current child of Togaro, made its way through their homeland, then their first places of exile, in the torrential wars.

Coastal life appears to have been a feature even in the earliest of those stories, so not all seas were harmful, and fishing was a way of life.

The God Learner maps in Appendix E make a heroic but ultimately futile attempt to insert the island into the dogma of the Late Golden Age and afterwards.

What all stories have in common is the arrival of the sacred outrigger ship, of Sendereven origin, as an unexpected and invaluable aid against the onslaught of the seas. This also gives the various outrigger folk a distinct East Isles ancestry from the two saviors crewing that ship.

The origina lands (or island) of Thinobutu was sunk, but people emigrated from there - mostly using the new expanse of water to reach new shores where they built up their exile communities. These all suffered further invasions - by Artmali cloud-ships, by Vithelan Antigods from Duravan, and by the seas.

 

Let me enumerate the Thinobutan descendants that made it into Time first. This is an unusual approach, made necessary by the fragmentary myths of these distinct groups.

The westernmost group are the folk of the Kumanku archipelago.

Next are the natives of Thinokos, on the Marthino Sea shore of eastern Fonrit.

Next are the weird folk of Kimos, on the far side of Laskal, with their endless war against the Gorger antigods.

Next are the people of Loral, who disappeared during the Closing.

Next are the people of Elamle, elf friends.

Easternmost are the people of Onlaks, of the same homeland as those of Elamle, but from a later migration.

Potentially Thinobutan (but without any known origin myths) are the people of Teleos (agimori race, rainbow hues of skin) who also suffered a curse during the Closing. Prior to the Closing they had notoriety as pirates, which makes an outrigger ancestry possible.

In short, all of the humans south of Magasta's Pool but north of the Elf forests in coastal and island Pamaltela, except for the Fonritian blues (shown on the map of p.697).

 

So let's look at Appendix E for Thinobutu and its heirs: p.683 has Thinobutu inside a river bend of Sshorg River, east of the continuous yellow elf jungle. Almost enough to make it conform to the native "island" myths.

p.684 shows Duravan and Fozeranto as fragments of the Vithelan empire in the Flood Age, and a (too?) small island named Thinobutu. King Thakinda of that island uses secret tidal powers to resist the first torrent.

The maps on p.688 and p.691 show pretty much the same coast line for northeastern Pamaltela, which has the three interim kingdoms Ulrana, Alarlaverir and Dakuputlo Elamle and the land of Genjera. The seas have advanced only slihtly from one map to the other. Thinobutu Isle remains on both of these maps, too.

Only the Breaking of the World / Zzabur's blast / the implosion of the Spike opens the seas between Umathela and Maslo.

The veracity of these maps in the area of northern Pamaltela has been doubted across the trenches of decades old debates. The blue cloudships could have attacked floating above that elf jungle (or green elf forest), but a sea route along northern Pamaltela prior to the Firefall appears to be the more likely answer.

Still, the descriptions of the refuge places are the best (or rather only) map representation of the various interim refugee lands.

 

As far as I am concerned, the Thinobutans are the continuation of the East Isles naval developments with northern Pamaltelan personnel. Antigod demons from Fozeranto entered their realm, but so did Artmali navies.

Their first stories of coexistance and conflicts with the yellow elves are from Maslo. Whether Teleos with its own yellow elf population played a role is uncertain.

 

Significant portions of their ancestral culture and almost all of their ancestral lands have been drowned (or in case of Loral, depopulated).

So, to sum up, they are a human people of agimori racial type without being descended from the First Drinkers. They have heroic admixture by a the crew of a stranded Sendereven ship (each of the intermediate lands has this, with different names for the helmswoman and the navigator), and they culture attracted the hostility of western Artmali (IMO) and Fozeranto antigods alongside the invasive seas.

IMO they were an island culture from the beginning, with a sea not shown in the Golden Age maps because it doesn't conform to the monomyth sequence of dry lands in the Golden Age. But then, neither does Ivaro's Pool and subsequent drowning in the East.

The various cultures don't seem to have interacted with Vovisibor directly, although both Fozeranto and the Artmali interactions may have been tainted by Vovisibor association.

 

Their myths are one of the main reasons why there is a serious debate whether there ever has been a single Cosmic Mountain in the Surface World, or whether that edifice/landmark was rather limited to a magically unified combination of various localized archetypical mountains which got conflated.

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

Yeah see this is why I feel like they are Easterners who ended up in Pamaltela. There's no evidence of Agimori culture or religion; in fact there's an independent religion based on Islander myths, and it's shamanic. They have their own creator.

Also, as you say, they have no First Drinkers among them.

Seems like a little bit of the Eastern Islands 🌴 "many islands and gods divided" principle, but they got cut off somehow yet survived.

Less like the peoples of New Guinea and more like the Oceanic peoples who arrived and settled in New Guinea much much later and adopted a lot of local customs.

[metcalph]

For the broadest generalisation, they are Agi ("The  Maslo culture is made up of a variety of Agimori peoples living along the coasts of Elamle and Onlaks" Guide p600).  They originally are made out of "red earth, brown sand, gray earth, and black mud" Guide p683 so they have a variety of skin tones, including blues, vithelans and other people (who would have come later).  The Teleono who live to their north and may be related are seem to be similar Guid p523.  

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

There's no evidence of Agimori culture or religion; in fact there's an independent religion based on Islander myths, and it's shamanic. They have their own creator.

They do not seem to be at all associated with Pamalt.  It's a very distinct culture, and very fragmented.

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Less like the peoples of New Guinea and more like the Oceanic peoples who arrived and settled in New Guinea much much later and adopted a lot of local customs.

I briefly ran a Maslo campaign and drew heavily on Filipino, Polynesian, and Indonesian traditions with some Mayan cultural ideas mixed in to expand on the existent myths of Thinobuto and Elamle-Ata. 

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I briefly ran a Maslo campaign and drew heavily on Filipino, Polynesian, and Indonesian traditions with some Mayan cultural ideas mixed in to expand on the existent myths of Thinobuto and Elamle-Ata. 

Did you expand on the existing pantheon? We've got Soli, Big Eel, Old Turtle Woman and the Earth and Sun Spirits; then we've got the Three Crew, King Malukinda, King Thakinda and Erlanagga (whose yearly rituals are crucial!), and the Sleeping Underworld Gods (again with the yearly sacrifice). I bolded the ones that were mentioned under "Thinokos Tradition", which is classed as shamanic.

Likely we've got some Aldryami gods poking their heads in there; the Elamle Ata are the Forest People, right?

And of course there's likely some annoying Fonrit influence.

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Yeah see this is why I feel like they are Easterners who ended up in Pamaltela. There's no evidence of Agimori culture or religion; in fact there's an independent religion based on Islander myths, and it's shamanic. They have their own creator.

Also, as you say, they have no First Drinkers among them.

Seems like a little bit of the Eastern Islands 🌴 "many islands and gods divided" principle, but they got cut off somehow yet survived.

East Isles without Vith, though. So what we get is a civilisation in the south-east that is neither tied to the directional lord of the east (Vith) nor to that of the south (Pamalt), and which was destroyed by Sea, eastern Antigods, and (IMO northwestern) Artmali (as we have no hint of Veldang naval activity on the Togaro Ocean, only on the Nargan sea and the "slow zone" of Sramak's river in the neighborhood of the earth cube).

What we do get are strong parallels with the Fiwan Hsunchen creation myths of Pamaltela (though if Bolongo's betrayal occurred, the stories are quite silent about that), so there is continuity to Pamaltela there.

6 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Less like the peoples of New Guinea and more like the Oceanic peoples who arrived and settled in New Guinea much much later and adopted a lot of local customs.

In other words, Madagascar, or possibly New Zealand?

That's the role of the Outrigger heroes - helmswoman and navigator.

Dengenti and Jomor accompany Miirdek in the Sharzu -> Maslo version.

Inki and Boroto occur in the Ulrana -> Thinokos version, as intercessors between the living and the underwater realm of the dead.

The people of Alarlarverir -> Kimos apparently make do without an outrigger boat. They are the ones who remember the coming of the antigods. Theirs is the most Chthulhuid of the three Outrigger People myths. Or they are the only ones who remember the worst stuff of the demon period.

Loral lies smack-dab in the region of Genjera/Gendara. The Queendom of Loral is lost to history, and may have been eradicated or horribly transmuted by the arrival of the island fortress of Zir. This appearance might be tied to the 1049-1051 cataclysms that also produced the city of Senbar in northern Pent.

We have no myths of origin for the Kumankans, their History section tells us that the islands were colonized by people of Thinobutu origin without telling us how and when they arrived there, and only the map on p.697 of the Guide to ascertain their Outrigger origin. For all we know, they may have been carried off from the Sevasbos coast by Artmali as slaves. There is one interesting exception to the enslavement of Kumanku, though -- the Place of Cloth Trading on Teleos who rule over a slave population carried away from Teshnos. The Kimotan myth does allow for other places of survival, though, only following the activities of the demigod king Kediri.

 

Thinobutu itself appears to be a spirit realm island. Maybe it was one from the start.

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

37 minutes ago, Joerg said:

In other words, Madagascar, or possibly New Zealand?

No I mean literally the Oceanic speakers who settled Papua-New Guinea. Two major branches of Austronesian are attested in the island of New Guinea, Oceanic (the Western Oceanic languages) and the South Halmahera–West New Guinea languages.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Did you expand on the existing pantheon? We've got Soli, Big Eel, Old Turtle Woman and the Earth and Sun Spirits; then we've got the Three Crew, King Malukinda, King Thakinda and Erlanagga (whose yearly rituals are crucial!), and the Sleeping Underworld Gods (again with the yearly sacrifice). I bolded the ones that were mentioned under "Thinokos Tradition", which is classed as shamanic.

That's the Thinokos <- Ulrana tradition you mention. Maslo has its own - Masdoumari rather than Soli, the three Crewmen Dengenti, Jomor and Miirdek, and different kings, too. Erlanagga appears to be a cognate of Elamle-ata, only one that staid at home rather than prepared peaceful integration with the Novarooplia elves.

 

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Likely we've got some Aldryami gods poking their heads in there; the Elamle Ata are the Forest People, right?

The "Elamle-ata" as the enemies of Laskal could be anything. One possibility could be an exodus from Kimos, possibly throwbacks to the demon worship of Genjera. And possibly encouraged/subverted by yellow elves. It could be just the demons of Genjera summoned and instrumentalized by the yellow elves, possibly on loan from the Gorger masters.

 

Maslo itself is divided by their different elf attitudes. It may just be my impression, but the aggressive sea trading seems to stem from beleaguered Onlaks rather than idyllic Miirdek (discounting the Mother of Monsters which makes permanent harbor construction impossible and whose leftovers demand constant effort).

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

And of course there's likely some annoying Fonrit influence.

Fonrit has more (human) inhabitants than the rest of Pamaltela combined. Of course it has tremendous influence.

But then, Fonrit is united by the Garangordite slavocracy (with a few exceptions) and little else.

[jajagappa]

11 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Did you expand on the existing pantheon?

I created some odds and ends of myths (or mythic fragments). Was doing this about 10 years ago, so can't necessarily recall all of what I had in mind with these, but adding here for whatever interest they provide.

Elamle and the Eight Villages of Sacrifice

In Bayahote, the Sacrifice is of a limb, which is regrown, but the Limb establishes a link of the person to the earth and the trees.  The person will feel harm to the earth/forest.

In Neimingu, the Sacrifice is associated with the statue of Elamle and meeting the 294 conditions of the Oath of Elamle (the sacrifice broken into many smaller parts, perhaps each corresponding to a body part?).

In Olyn, the Sacrifice is that of movement where the Citizens become like trees.  All goes to this ultimate sacrifice and the spiritual connection of the Citizen.

In Wendo, the elves have a dock and are part of the town.  Undoubtedly, there is some additional element of the Sacrifice here as well.

There were four other villages, now hidden, which marked the other Sacrifices.  One is on the Edrenlin Isles.  One may be carried off to Kumanku?  One is near the Alyss River.  One rises in the heart of the peninsula--the dock of the Sky Boat.

In Onlaks, there is no equivalent of the Sacrifice and as a consequence the Sacrifice is the ritual devouring of humans by the jungle.  The Hero to unite the land must find the Path of Elamle.

 

Notes on the above:

Relate to the Way of the Seeded Earth--the Sacrifice as a communication & exchange with the  world of the Spirits.  The Sacrifice energizes the Spirit World and the Spirit World infuses the Mundane World.

The celestial world is just part of the Spirit World, but in the Mundane World the spirits have been forced to paths by evil demons or unnatural sorceries.

The elves are seen as a part of the spirit world but their songs are different.  Through agreements there are ways for Sacrifice to create unity of the world.

The superstitions of the Elamle folk are connected to the Right Sacrifice to maintain the balance with the Spirit World.  Without Sacrifice, the Spirit World is not renewed in the right way, making beings of the spirit plane hostile and malevolent, warping the fabric of the Mundane World.

 

Dimalanta and the Sacrifice of the Vadeli

In the days when the foul Vadeli travelled the world, they came to Thinobuto.  There was a contest and the Hero (could be Thakinda, but maybe Dimalanta) Sacrificed in such a way that the foul Vadeli was withered and consumed by the Hungry Spirits and destroyed.  [It is likely this includes something of the Flaming Serpent.]

Dimalanta went to Bulayaom and found the Feathered Serpent of the Fiery Breath hidden within the stalk of the Star Reeds [rainbow?].

When the foul Vadeli returned, Hoom Jhys called up this myth to destroy the Fleet of the Vadeli.  It was not that the Fleet of Maslo was destroyed, but that they had to participate in the Sacrifice to complete the task.  Hoom Jhys should have been the Hero who made the Sacrifice, but being of Onlaks, who do not Sacrifice of themselves, the Sacrifice comes from all the combined support.

 

Caylaota and the Fall of Hinaduc (Light of the Sorrow or the 'Idea')

When the God Learners came and fashioned Umbertal, a Hero of Olyn (Caylaota) Sacrificed following the Way of Dimalanta and called forth the Spirit of the Dragon Breath to consume the Flame of Vadel.  The Dragon Breath has since guarded the site and has been warded by the Flaming Serpents.

Caylaota travelled the Shimmering Path of the Reflecting Lights and the Simmering Trail of Unyielding Tears to find the Dragon Breath Spirit hidden amidst the Sundering Blade Swamp.

 

The Dance of the Eight Legs of Final Friendship

When Gabat the Foam of Decay floated up from the Dead Sea, all life and spirits withered in its presence.  All that was life and all that was spirit fell away rotten, out of the dream of the Creator.  And Creator could not stop Gabat for it was not created from his dream, but from the changed and broken bits of debris.

Then folk fled from the monstrosity that was Gabat, the flotsam of broken worlds, the refutation of all that was imagined.  Its head was nothing but an empty wind but it could vomit forth filthy acid, its whip the slashing shards of broken earth, its feet were scorching flames and screaming souls, its body was a shifting and unsettled mass of writhing 'bugs' (godlings, demons, and whatever else had died) which it could release in 'births'.  Such 'bugs' were called Timimaw and were monstrous unskinned evil.  The writhing mass of Gabat formed a bridge of slime which washed across the world.

Bulanadi knew she and her folk could not stop Gabat and they fled by boat from the Foam of Decay.  In her flight, she found others who shared a dream of a living world.  Though they were strange(small and large; animal and vegetable; man and beast; of spirit, daimon, and essence), they found they all participated in the Dance of the Eight Legs.  They came from the Eight Directions:  north, south, east, and west, up, down, in, and out.  Besides Bulanadi who was of us (IN), one was named Apalahin and he was a mighty spirit chief (SOUTH); one was named Aldry who sang the plant songs (DOWN--the seeds of the earth); one was Lakanoil who flew from the Sky (UP); one was Talaba born from the oyster and she arose from the seas (EAST); there was Cambongo the dark wind (NORTH); one was KrimanKol the stone hand; and last was Madla of the many beasts (OUT).

Gabat came and sought to eat and devour, but the dance remained even after Gabat ate the weave. 

Gabat came and sought to fight, but the dance did not resist so could not be fought.

Gabat came and sought to dissolve the dance, but each time the dance dissolved, it reformed and changed and was still a dance.

Gabat came and sought to halt the dance, but the unmoving dance was still a dance and the dance went on.

Each thing that Gabat came and sought was answered by the Eight Sacrifices.

From the Dance came the Final Friendship and the Song of Naming.  The Eight Legs named the evils and as each evil of Gabat was named, its Truth was revealed and returned to the dream of the Creator, falling apart from the whole of Gabat. 

The Eight Legs fashioned the Eight Idols and placed the Eight Idols across the land, guarded by the eight villages of Life, to remind all of the Dance of the Eight Legs and to name the Truths of Gabat.

 

Apalahin Raises the Mountains and the Tears of the Creator

A great spirit called Apalahin sought to keep his dream to himself.  He gathered all his children together on a great plain.  He then commanded other spirits to make a Giant Wall in the world.  This wall was called the Unbroken Chain of Underearth and it extended through the world and the spirit plane, south of Sharzu. 

This made the Creator sad since all were part of his dream.  The tears of the Creator became HiNagapi the Rain, and the Rain fell upon Sharzu, renewing the life of the Creator.  But HiNagapi could not cross the Unbroken Chain of Underearth of the lands of Apalahin remained dry ever after until the great filths broke the Chain.

 

Note: this was based on Pamalt having Lodril raise the great mountain ranges of Pamaltela

 

Gongahasa and the Hammer of Horaypatoc

The evil gods came to Thinobotu and fought each other, as was the way of demons.  A mighty thunderer named Horaypatoc came, pounding on his giant anvil and showering the world with sparks which caused many things to burst into flame.

In the Field of Apoinan, Horaypatoc and a fierce demon named Bagsic fought.  Though Bagsic was crushed, Horaypatoc was wounded by a poisoned stinger and collapsed there, dropping his hammer.

When the minions of Bagsic assailed the Thinobutans, Malukinda walked the land and awoke old powers.  Gongahasa was one of those who walked with Malukinda and he found the Hammer of Horaypatoc.  He wrestled first with the Breath of Horaypatoc, which could blow over mountains, but Gongahasa lashed a rope to the Hammer so he could not be blown away.  Then he wrestled with the Voice of Horaypatoc which could shatter the ears of all who heard it, but Gongahasa stuffed his ears with wax so he wouldn't hear it, and raised his own voice so loud that Horaypatoc had to listen.  Then he wrestled Horaypatoc the giant, and he would have been thrown if not for a secret hold that he learned from Gumabay that would allow him to hold on no matter what.  Horaypatoc conceded the fight and let Gongahasa choose his reward.  Gongahasa chose the Hammer.

Gongahasa found that he could use this to hammer even the bones of gods and demons to make new weapons and to instill these weapons with the spirits of old.  He learned the Burning Sacrifice which purified the bones and the Cleansing Sacrifice which cooled the bones and the Naming Sacrifice which allowed the spirits to embrace the bone.

 

Note: Since then the Gongahasa Practice has held the powers of redsmithing in Elamle and Onlaks, and its practitioners can call forth the Purifying Spirits, the Hardening Spirits, and the Sharpening Spirits.

[Sir_Godspeed]

I'm a bit reticent to get into the whole phenotype stuff, but I guess you can argue that the Thinobutans are to the Pamaltelans/Agi what RW Melanesians* are to Sub-Saharan Africans*. They look superficially similar from an outsider's perspective, even if they have been separate population pools for hundreds of thousands of years.

(*Dubious categories, I'm aware, hopefully you get what I mean.)

[g33k]

On 8/24/2019 at 12:31 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

This is kind of a minor question but:

....

You poor, naive child...

This is Glorantha.  When you ask a "nerd question" you can never... ever... count on it being a "quick" question!

 It's like opening a Hellmaw to roast a marshmallow.

😋 

 

(good job!)