Book of Sires Question

[YwainDigsLions]

Let's say somebody's grandfather is a Dissident of Vortigern's policies, and then the father becomes a knight. Is the father automatically a Dissident, or does he start out Neutral? I've been assuming he starts out Neutral and changes according to what happens to him specifically, which could lead to an interesting situation where grandfather and father end up fighting on opposite sides in a battle. What have you guys been doing?

Actually, let's add another question here: The Book of Sires and Book of the Warlord say becoming a Vassal Knight is worth 200 Glory, while KAP 5.2 says it is only 50. Furthermore, the BoW says you can only get 1,000 Glory for any one deed, so if you are knighted as a Vassal Knight, are you capped at 1,000 instead of 1,200? What's the consensus?

Edited August 27, 2019 by YwainDigsLions

[Morien]

1 hour ago, YwainDigsLions said:

Let's say somebody's grandfather is a Dissident of Vortigern's policies, and then the father becomes a knight. Is the father automatically a Dissident, or does he start out Neutral?

You are tracking the FAMILY's politics (see pp. 15-16). So if the Grandfather is a Dissident, so will the rest of the family be, too. All the exceptions to this are mentioned in the text, including one where a Loyalist Grandfather is assassinated, and hence the Father grows up to be a Dissident.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Morien

[Morien]

1 hour ago, YwainDigsLions said:

The Book of Sires and Book of the Warlord say becoming a Vassal Knight is worth 200 Glory, while KAP 5.2 says it is only 50. Furthermore, the BoW says you can only get 1,000 Glory for any one deed, so if you are knighted as a Vassal Knight, are you capped at 1,000 instead of 1,200?

This is again one of those things where KAP 5.2 didn't update everything that it should have. 200 Glory is correct.

When you get knighted, you get 1000 Glory. THEN you become a vassal and get granted land, earning you the 200 Glory. Two separate occasions, both give their full value: 1000 Glory + 200 Glory.

Same if you marry a widowed heiress who has loads of Glory. You get 1000 Glory for the marriage and THEN you get the titles. Two occasions again.

[Atgxtg]

I agree with Morien here, both because things would happen in sequence and be two separate events- probably over two different days will full pomp and ceremony, and because I'm not all that wild about the 1000 glory cap to begin with. I only see one place in the rules where it is required, battles. Specifically the Book of Battle, and IMO it would probably be better to lessen some of the multipliers in BoB. As for other instances where a characters earns over 1000 glory at one time, I think he earned it -not that it happens all that much. 

[Hzark10]

YPMV, but I do differentiate each day for battles, just in case.  

[Morien]

I separate Badon to its constituent daily battles, too.

Then again, since I don't use BoB and I definitely would not use the multipliers for extended melees, it is less likely that I come up with a situation where the 1000 Glory rule would get broken in any single Battle. (As stated above, I consider Badon to be a series of battles rather than one long one. The first day is not even fought on the Badon Hill!)

I would find it very difficult to deny someone 1000+ Glory if they have earned it like taking down a Dragon single-handedly, or some such. Of course you can claim that while the Dragon itself is just the RAW 1000 Glory, the extra for doing it single-handedly and achieving the quest goal are separate rewards, although at least the single-handed bonus is clearly related to the same event.

Curiously enough, I just went through KAP 5.2, and I couldn't find where this max 1000 rule is stated. I know I have read it somewhere, but p.122 explicitly states that you can get more: "Those occasions from which more than 1,000 points can be gained are invariably unique and deadly (the Battle of Badon Hill, for instance)."

Edited August 28, 2019 by Morien

[Morien]

22 minutes ago, Morien said:

Curiously enough, I just went through KAP 5.2, and I couldn't find where this max 1000 rule is stated.

Found it. BotW, p. 5: "Note, however, that the maximum Glory gained for any title, including those gained through marriage, is 1000 points. This is the maximum amount of Glory that may be awarded for any single event in King Arthur Pendragon."

I'll just dissent a bit from that. Not that it is that important, since it would only apply for Guinever, but I do think that she would deserve the 1500 Glory for becoming the Queen of the High King, rather than just an 'ordinary' Queen which is already worth 1000.

[Hzark10]

Agree that becoming the Queen of the High King should be worth a bit more.

You will notice that this rule is for title, but I seem to remember that there was discussion about it applying elsewhere.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Hzark10 said:

You will notice that this rule is for title, but I seem to remember that there was discussion about it applying elsewhere.

7 hours ago, Morien said:

Found it. BotW, p. 5: "Note, however, that the maximum Glory gained for any title, including those gained through marriage, is 1000 points. This is the maximum amount of Glory that may be awarded for any single event in King Arthur Pendragon."

[Atgxtg]

As noted above I dislike the limit. 

As far as title go, I don't see the need for a limit at all, since we can set the glory award for any given title. If we want to make High King 1500 we can. No need for a limit since no one is going to be getting multiple titles as the same event.  

For wives I could see them getting a percentage of their husbands glory.  Surely it would be more glorious to be the wife of a King than the wife of a Baron or King than the wife of a Knight?  The 1000 point cap sucks for wives since they do get their titles through marriage, and no matter who they marry they get the same amount, 1000 points. So basically a lady gets 1000 points for marrying anybody of Knight status or higher. 

And a far as the Book of Battle goes, if we lowered the multipliers we wouldn't hit the 1000 glory cap in the first place, and occasionally going over it would be okay. The way I look at it if a PK slays two dragons at the same time he deserves full glory. Note that only the  top tier Round Table Knights could be expected slay two dragons at once anyway. 

 

[Morien]

19 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

The 1000 point cap sucks for wives since they do get their titles through marriage, and no matter who they marry they get the same amount, 1000 points.

Well, YPWV, but in my little corner of the universe, not only do I separate Marriage and Title Glory for women (same for husbands, if they marry a widowed heiress, they get Marriage AND Title glory), but I even go a step further and houserule the whole marriage Glory shebang so that it actually matters how much Glory the husband has. Currently, any schlub who is a knight would max you out, no matter if it was Sir Lancelot or Sir Couch-Potato.

[Atgxtg]

5 hours ago, Morien said:

Well, YPWV, but in my little corner of the universe, not only do I separate Marriage and Title Glory for women (same for husbands, if they marry a widowed heiress, they get Marriage AND Title glory),

That's pretty much my view as well. It's why I think the cap should be tossed out. it didn't exist prior to KAP5 and it didn't need to. The only place where I see people hitting the cap in in Book of Battle 2nd Edition with the multipliers. 

5 hours ago, Morien said:

but I even go a step further and houserule the whole marriage Glory shebang so that it actually matters how much Glory the husband has. Currently, any schlub who is a knight would max you out, no matter if it was Sir Lancelot or Sir Couch-Potato.

Exactly. I've been thinking of something like 1/10th or so of the husbands glory with either a minimum of 1000 or plus 1000. So marrying a Legendary Knight with 4000 glory will be worth 4-5K to a Lady., But then that is really where she is going to get the majority of her glory.

[YwainDigsLions]

When going through the grandfather's and father's history, are they also supposed to get 200 Glory for being vassal knights?

[Morien]

1 hour ago, YwainDigsLions said:

When going through the grandfather's and father's history, are they also supposed to get 200 Glory for being vassal knights?

Yes. See p. 7.

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, YwainDigsLions said:

When going through the grandfather's and father's history, are they also supposed to get 200 Glory for being vassal knights?

Yes, but it won't make that much of a difference if you forget it. By the time you get to the PKs it's only another 22 glory. 

[YwainDigsLions]

4 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Yes, but it won't make that much of a difference if you forget it. By the time you get to the PKs it's only another 22 glory. 

Yup, just wondering. Thanks!

[Leingod]

On 8/28/2019 at 6:05 PM, Atgxtg said:

That's pretty much my view as well. It's why I think the cap should be tossed out. it didn't exist prior to KAP5 and it didn't need to. The only place where I see people hitting the cap in in Book of Battle 2nd Edition with the multipliers. 

Exactly. I've been thinking of something like 1/10th or so of the husbands glory with either a minimum of 1000 or plus 1000. So marrying a Legendary Knight with 4000 glory will be worth 4-5K to a Lady., But then that is really where she is going to get the majority of her glory.

That's pretty close to how I handle it, unless I'm misunderstanding you. My take is that, to a lady, a marriage to a noble is exactly as momentous and as much of a confirmation of status as being knighted is to a man, and thus just as the man gets 1,000 Glory off the bat once he is knighted, the lady gets 1,000 Glory for marrying someone of at least knightly status (but only the first time it happens). Then you factor in all the other stuff that adds Glory to the marriage, much as how a man gets his Glory from being knighted and then accounts for whatever titles and lands he's inherited separately from that, and just as a man gets way more Glory from inheriting high titles and lots of lands, a lady gets far more Glory add-ons from marrying a man who has the above instead of just his knighthood.

[Morien]

That is very close the way I handle it too for lady characters. 1000 marriage glory for the 1st marriage and then the extras for husband's title and glory etc. 

[Cornelius]

On 8/28/2019 at 1:52 PM, Morien said:

Found it. BotW, p. 5: "Note, however, that the maximum Glory gained for any title, including those gained through marriage, is 1000 points. This is the maximum amount of Glory that may be awarded for any single event in King Arthur Pendragon."

I'll just dissent a bit from that. Not that it is that important, since it would only apply for Guinever, but I do think that she would deserve the 1500 Glory for becoming the Queen of the High King, rather than just an 'ordinary' Queen which is already worth 1000.

To be honest it constitutes what you see as the 'event'. I agree with @Morien that the marriages and getting the titles are two separate events, and thus get their own glory. The same goes for a battle. You could even separate the special event (dying heroically while defending your liege) and the rest of the battle.

While some things require to break this rule (becoming high queen or high king for instance) in most cases I would not let it happen as a single event. It is a bit like the lover's solo. You will need to get in the right position etc. Its a string of events that finally culminates into the final reward. So in the end a person will have got much more than a 1000 glory.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Cornelius said:

To be honest it constitutes what you see as the 'event'. I agree with @Morien that the marriages and getting the titles are two separate events,

For a woman, they wouldn't be. She marries the Count, King, Knight, etc. and that is how & when she gets her title. 

 

1 hour ago, Cornelius said:

 

While some things require to break this rule (becoming high queen or high king for instance) in most cases I would not let it happen as a single event. It is a bit like the lover's solo. You will need to get in the right position etc. Its a string of events that finally culminates into the final reward. So in the end a person will have got much more than a 1000 glory.

I'd let it happen, but letting it happen and having it happen are two different things. Outside of the Book of Battle, or the situation with a woman getting married, it just wouldn't come up as it would require a character to do something really exceptional, like kill two dragons at the same time.  I think if a knight can pull that off he deserves to get all the glory.

[creativehum]

On 8/27/2019 at 9:52 AM, Morien said:

This is again one of those things where KAP 5.2 didn't update everything that it should have. 200 Glory is correct.

What was the reasoning from shifting the Glory from 50 to 200. It's been 50 for years. 

Not arguing against the change. Simply curious what the discussion/logic was.

[Hzark10]

Off hand, I would say that when things were codified, vassal knight ended up at 200. Of course, one could argue becoming a vassal of another knight would be one amount, of a banneret would be a different amount, of a count, more still, etc.

[Morien]

9 hours ago, creativehum said:

What was the reasoning from shifting the Glory from 50 to 200. It's been 50 for years. 

Geez, you are asking me to remember something from 5 years ago?

Warlord v1.0 it was 250 Glory. I -think- it was a change due to vassal knights being rarer than they were in earlier editions, and Greg wanted the glory to reflect that. 50 Glory is not that much, after all. Then when Warlord was revised, it was decided that 200 Glory per step up to a King would give a nice round 1000 Glory total for the King. Since at the time, 1000 Glory was the cap anyway, this seemed about right. That is my recollection of it.

[creativehum]

8 hours ago, Morien said:

Geez, you are asking me to remember something from 5 years ago?

Warlord v1.0 it was 250 Glory. I -think- it was a change due to vassal knights being rarer than they were in earlier editions, and Greg wanted the glory to reflect that. 50 Glory is not that much, after all. Then when Warlord was revised, it was decided that 200 Glory per step up to a King would give a nice round 1000 Glory total for the King. Since at the time, 1000 Glory was the cap anyway, this seemed about right. That is my recollection of it.

Thanks for the reply!

I understand there might a thread or threads in the archive I can go look up, and if you want say "Go find them," I completely understand.

But if you don't mind one more question, this clause makes me curious: "a change due to vassal knights being rarer than they were in earlier editions."

I don't remember previous editions getting too deep into the woods about how many vassal knights there were. 

I am assuming this is an issue that arose from books like Book of the Warlord and people digging into history and create numbers for types of knights? (I don't own BoW.)

The text and structure of the rules of each edition of the core rules of KAP really hasn't changed much over the years, so I'm curious about the idea that there was a set number of vassal knight before that could have changed.

Again... thanks!

[Morien]

1 hour ago, creativehum said:

I don't remember previous editions getting too deep into the woods about how many vassal knights there were. 

I am assuming this is an issue that arose from books like Book of the Warlord and people digging into history and create numbers for types of knights? (I don't own BoW.)

Again, speaking from my vague recollections...

The very vagueness, the fact that all the PKs started as vassal knights, the example heiresses with several manors of their own, and the easy availability of 1-manor heiresses from Random Marriage Table (guaranteed on 5+ result on 1d20) all presented a picture that Vassal Knights are plentiful. Indeed, at the Banneret -entry of 4th edition, it says that a banneret, having several manors himself, must have at least 3 knights holding land from him, but typically seven or eight. If you look at Logres random chargen in 4th edition for Father's class, it gives 1-8 odds for a landed knight/lord, 9-14 for a landless knight (household or mercenary) and 15+ for a squire.

So, any people, myself included, pretty much assumed that it was something like half and half or thereabouts.

Then Greg did some more research, especially with regards to Warlord, and came up with a figure like 10% of the knights ought to be vassals or lords, the rest household knights. That Landed Knights were much rarer than was the impression given in Pendragon, and getting a manor should take a lot of hard work, not just a 5+ roll with a 1d20.

 

EDIT: One of the Utterances of Greg that I could find, from way back in 2011: http://kapresources.wpengine.com/Pendragon Forum Archive/index.php/t-1253.html

Edited September 10, 2019 by Morien