Example of Multiple Combatants

[Sumath]

I've uploaded a write-up of 5 rounds of RQG combat, although the early rounds are missile and spell casting. 

Title of document is Multiple Combatants Example.

Feedback appreciated.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Sumath

[PhilHibbs]

It's easy to find but here's a link anyway

 

[PhilHibbs]

Brodan takes a wound on SR4, and elects to cast Heal 3 in response. 5 SR to put away his sword, plus his DEX SR of 2, plus 2 for the 3 point spell, I make it that he can't do it in that round without dropping his sword.

I can't find any rules for how long it takes to retrieve a dropped sword. Fumble drops take 1D3 rounds but I think that's harsh for a deliberately, gently dropped sword.

Of course if Brodan wants to be really flash, what he does is throw his sword up in the air, cast the spell, then catch it. We need rules for that.

Edited September 8, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[g33k]

6 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Of course if Brodan wants to be really flash, what he does is throw his sword up in the air, cast the spell, then catch it. We need rules for that.

And for Kerwith Yewthever, the elf, to shoot the sword with an arrow, deflecting it into the hands of Kerwith's ally...  We need rules for that, too!     🤡

[Sumath]

5 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Brodan takes a wound on SR4, and elects to cast Heal 3 in response. 5 SR to put away his sword, plus his DEX SR of 2, plus 2 for the 3 point spell, I make it that he can't do it in that round without dropping his sword.

Good point. I may have made that mistake elsewhere too.

6 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I can't find any rules for how long it takes to retrieve a dropped sword. Fumble drops take 1D3 rounds but I think that's harsh for a deliberately, gently dropped sword.

Page 194 notes that 5 SRs is an abstract convention for arming or disarming a weapon, so I've assumed the same for picking one up.

[Bill the barbarian]

7 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Brodan takes a wound on SR4, and elects to cast Heal 3 in response. 5 SR to put away his sword, plus his DEX SR of 2, plus 2 for the 3 point spell, I make it that he can't do it in that round without dropping his sword.

Now there are two point that still confuse me. Note that I intend to read the Sumath's examples tonight, just commenting on PhilHibb’s comment.

1/ You should have two DEX SRs, no? One for the sword and one for the spell?

Next, a little off the example:

2/  Many things can be combined, I realize that some spells are not included in this statement... moving and sheathing a sword is one example that can be done.
This is done at the same time so for the two actions the longest should add the SRM, no? (this is not clear in the rules and I have seen others using the shorter time in their examples as the SRM).

[Sumath]

2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Now there are two point that still confuse me. Note that I intend to read the Sumath's examples tonight, just commenting on PhilHibb’s comment.

1/ You should have two DEX SRs, no? One for the sword and one for the spell?

Next, a little off the example:

2/  Many things can be combined, I realize that some spells are not included in this statement... moving and sheathing a sword is one example that can be done.
This is done at the same time so for the two actions the longest should add the SRM, no? (this is not clear in the rules and I have seen others using the shorter time in their examples as the SRM).

Regarding point 1/, I figured it as follows: Bodran's Dex SR is 3, +1 for surprise means he can in theory start taking action on SR 4. He can't cast without putting his sword away though, so this adds another 5 SRs to casting time. Then 2 more SRs for the 3 point spell. @PhilHibbs This was what I'd envisaged, although arguably as Bodran was injured on SR 3 you could say that SR 4 is too quick a response time to start the process.

Point 2/ you can normally combine movement and actions, but in the case of Angtyr when he is evading missile fire, the rules for that (p.214) say that an evading target can do nothing else but move half their movement and evade in that round.

[Sumath]

So in order to make that work, I'd need to have Bodran start acting on SR 4 as above, but then change his statement of intent (+5 SRs) to casting Heal 3 and then just drop the sword and cast the spell. That should still be okay to go off on SR 11.

[Psullie]

Thanks Sumath, that was an enjoyable read. Nice use of tactics to explain the rules. Also shows the importance of armour. My only suggestion would be that as the Orlmarth had the drop they should have cast a few spells to boost their chances... 

[Bill the barbarian]

4 minutes ago, Sumath said:

Regarding point 1/, I figured it as follows: Bodran's Dex SR is 3, +1 for surprise means he can in theory start taking action on SR 4. He can't cast without putting his sword away though, so this adds another 5 SRs to casting time. Then 2 more SRs for the 3 point spell. @PhilHibbs This was what I'd envisaged, although arguably as Bodran was injured on SR 3 you could say that SR 4 is too quick a response time to start the process.

 

That is one DEX SRM in the red should there not be another for the spell?

(don;t know if RQ G has eliminated the term SRM but I like it to differentiate twixt strike ranks and strike rank modifiers)

[Sumath]

Thanks @Psullie, I saw it as them just trying to scare the Greydogs off, not wanting to waste magic, but then the Humakti taking exception and deciding he would engage with them. The use of magic ramps up from reactive healing magic to full blown Rune Magic by the end.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Sumath

[Sumath]

3 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

That is one DEX SRM in the red should there not be another for the spell?

(don;t know if RQ G has eliminated the term SRM but I like it to differentiate twixt strike ranks and strike rank modifiers)

You start casting on your DEX SR though, so it's already there for Bodran, DEX SR 3. Would you need to add it a second time if you haven't actually taken action after your first DEX SR?

[Bill the barbarian]

3 minutes ago, Sumath said:

You start casting on your DEX SR though, so it's already there for Bodran, DEX SR 3. Would you need to add it a second time if you haven't actually taken action after your first DEX SR?

I think healing is one of those spells that can not be combined with melee action, so by my current understanding of the rules you would need to use DEX SRM for each action that can not be combined.

By the by, thanks @Sumath for taking the bull by the horns, so to speak.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Sumath]

As per 'Magical Attacks and Strike Ranks' on p.194: "5 additional strike ranks must be added to an adventurer's normal strike rank for a spell if they are switching from a weapon to the use of a spell in that melee round, so long as one hand remains free"

This seems to cover change of intention, as per my fourth post in this thread above. My original mistake was in having him sheathe the sword (another 5 SRs) instead of just dropping it.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 minutes ago, Sumath said:

As per 'Magical Attacks and Strike Ranks' on p.194: "5 additional strike ranks must be added to an adventurer's normal strike rank for a spell if they are switching from a weapon to the use of a spell in that melee round, so long as one hand remains free"

so the comment in red would be used in place of a DEX SRM, might be so. It  would be nice to see what the great old ones say... As to changing one’s mind the old RQ 3 penally modded up to RQ G standards should work until real rules come in.

Cheers

[Sumath]

Thanks @Bill the barbarian. That section isn't clear on whether it includes change of intention. If not, then yes Bodran possibly couldn't cast that round, although the Greydogs' statement of intent for round 1 was pretty vague anyway...

The other thing that occurred to me is that the Orlmarth should perhaps have had +40% added to their attack chances in the first round since the Greydogs were unaware of them. It wouldn't have made any difference to the outcome of round 1 though.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 minutes ago, Sumath said:

Thanks @Bill the barbarian. That section isn't clear on whether it includes change of intention. If not, then yes Bodran possibly couldn't cast that round, although the Greydogs' statement of intent for round 1 was pretty vague anyway...

 

Well, alas change of intention is not in the RQ G rules at all that I have seen, but 5 SRs is standard for RQ3 3 SR penalties that have made it to RQW G.

Now Sumath, you may mot have noted but the item I have highlighted in purple...

19 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

26 minutes ago, Sumath said:

As per 'Magical Attacks and Strike Ranks' on p.194: "5 additional strike ranks must be added to an adventurer's normal strike rank for a spell if they are switching from a weapon to the use of a spell in that melee round, so long as one hand remains free"

so the comment in red would be used in place of a DEX SRM, might be so. It  would be nice to see what the great old ones say.

has not been addressed in your answer (I know, it does not seem to be a query but a statement, I have had others say I could be a little clearer). Any thoughts.

[Sumath]

25 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

so the comment in red would be used in place of a DEX SRM

Looking at the list of modifiers on p.193, I'd agree that that is a SRM (whether it is a DEX SRM is unclear) - "Prepare a new weapon, reload a missile weapon, spell or ready a missile" - these are given +5 SRs. Nonetheless it seems to do a similar job to the old DEX SRM.

There is a reverse example of what we're discussing on p.195 'Multiple Activities Outside of Melee' where Vasana casts a Demoralise spell first, taking 5 SRs, then combines movement of 9m and notching an arrow for an additional 5 SRs, taking her to SR 10. She cannot then attack because she runs out of SRs. 

So she has cast a spell and made a preparatory action in one round, like Bodran does, but in a different order. To me, this suggests that Bodran should be able to get the spell off inside the round.

[g33k]

47 minutes ago, Sumath said:

As per 'Magical Attacks and Strike Ranks' on p.194: "5 additional strike ranks must be added to an adventurer's normal strike rank for a spell if they are switching from a weapon to the use of a spell in that melee round, so long as one hand remains free"

This seems to cover change of intention, as per my fourth post in this thread above. My original mistake was in having him sheathe the sword (another 5 SRs) instead of just dropping it.

I don't think it covers change of SoI:  as I read the RAW, it covers a SoI of "I cast a spell" when they began the round armed for melee, from the prior round.

I do not believe the RAW covers changing the SoI at all, actually.  +5 SR's seems like the "default" delay for something of the sort, however!

I also note the (somewhat slapdash, honestly; but official!) reply from Jason in the "official clarifications" thread:

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/8399-runequest-core-rules-questions/?do=findComment&comment=135847

Quote

A statement of intent can certainly be changed based on events transpiring during the round...  As a gamemaster I tend to go with whatever SR is higher between the original stated action and the SR of the new course of action attempted.

I'm not sure if Jason is saying "As a gamemaster I tend to..." in order to indicate ordinary "just another GM" advice, instead of Line-Developer "official ruling," or what...

 

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Now there are two point that still confuse me. Note that I intend to read the Sumath's examples tonight, just commenting on PhilHibb’s comment.

1/ You should have two DEX SRs, no? One for the sword and one for the spell?

Sheathing a sword is a flat 5SR so DEX SR only comes in once, for casting the spell.

Quote

Next, a little off the example:

2/  Many things can be combined, I realize that some spells are not included in this statement... moving and sheathing a sword is one example that can be done.
This is done at the same time so for the two actions the longest should add the SRM, no? (this is not clear in the rules and I have seen others using the shorter time in their examples as the SRM).

I don't think sheathing a sword, which is necessary for spell casting, can be done simultaneously with spell casting. Personally I don't make people put their weapons away to cast spells, but that's my house rule.

Edited September 8, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Sumath]

2 minutes ago, g33k said:

I do not believe the RAW covers changing the SoI at all, actually.  +5 SR's seems like the "default" delay for something of the sort, however!

This is the impression I'm getting too. 

Given that less importance seems to be placed upon SoI in RQG (to the point that either Jeff or Jason said they didn't much bother with it in their own games), it looks like they've put in the +5 SR modifier as a way of speeding things up. 

If that is the case, then fair enough. I don't have a problem with it.

[g33k]

2 minutes ago, Sumath said:

This is the impression I'm getting too. 

Given that less importance seems to be placed upon SoI in RQG (to the point that either Jeff or Jason said they didn't much bother with it in their own games), it looks like they've put in the +5 SR modifier as a way of speeding things up. 

If that is the case, then fair enough. I don't have a problem with it.

It may be worth annotating your example with something like "Change of SoI is an interpretation, not explicit in the RAW, based upon the change-of-weapon / change-of-action rule."  Otherwise, some poor slob may spend hours fruitlessly searching for the rule you used; and/or you may find yourself answering the same plaintive "but it doesn't work that way!" DM's for years to come...  😏

[Sumath]

I'll put up an edited version in the next 48 hours. There's a few things I've noticed (or been pointed out to me) that need a tweak.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Sumath

[PhilHibbs]

7 minutes ago, Sumath said:

So she has cast a spell and made a preparatory action in one round, like Bodran does, but in a different order. To me, this suggests that Bodran should be able to get the spell off inside the round.

Except that Brodan starts his actions after SR4 when he is injured.

1 hour ago, Sumath said:

So in order to make that work, I'd need to have Bodran start acting on SR 4 as above, but then change his statement of intent (+5 SRs) to casting Heal 3 and then just drop the sword and cast the spell. That should still be okay to go off on SR 11.

That's still 13: 4+5+2(DEX)+2(mp-1).

One of the real tough situations in RuneQuest is that you take damage half way through a round, and you die from it at the end of the same round. Never enough time to get off a quick heal spell. I allow rune magic at any time in the round, not just on SR1.

 

[Sumath]

12 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Except that Brodan starts his actions after SR4 when he is injured.

This goes back to the SoI question that @g33k has raised - namely that there no longer seems to be a penalty for changing Statement of Intent, only for changing between melee and magic. 

The question is, if Bodran is injured before his (adjusted) DEX SR, then what stops him from casting a healing spell straight away? The +5 SR penalty listed on p.193 and 194 seems to account for switching between melee weapon use and spell casting, so it's clearly not readiness. He acts on his DEX SR plus 5 SRs.

The only other impediment was having a hand free to cast the spell, and I'm assuming that dropping a sword (as opposed to sheathing one) takes no time. The downside of that is that someone else can potentially pick it up in combat.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Sumath