Example of Multiple Combatants

[Kloster]

13 hours ago, Sumath said:

But would they also lose the magic points since they have succeeded in the original casting roll and committed the MPs

I would say no. The MP are spent at the time the spell is cast. If the casting is interupted before the effective time the spell is cast, there should be no spending. This is effective for all spell casting, not only spirit magic (and should also apply to Rune Points if the rune roll is missed). The only exception I can think is RQIII Sorcery where, IIRC, you spent 1MP if the spell roll was missed.

[PhilHibbs]

5 minutes ago, Kloster said:

I would say no. The MP are spent at the time the spell is cast. If the casting is interupted before the effective time the spell is cast, there should be no spending. This is effective for all spell casting, not only spirit magic (and should also apply to Rune Points if the rune roll is missed). The only exception I can think is RQIII Sorcery where, IIRC, you spent 1MP if the spell roll was missed.

I think that was spirit spells as well in RQ3, you lost 1MP for a failed cast and all for a fumble.

Yup. Can't find a rule for fumbles though.

[Pierre]

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think that was spirit spells as well in RQ3, you lost 1MP for a failed cast and all for a fumble

 

From RQG GM Screen :

Spirit Magic:.... If the spell is not successful, no magic points are expended.... 

Rune Magic:....On a fumble, the spell fails and the Rune points are lost. If the roll is a critical, the spell costs no Rune points.

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by Pierre

[PhilHibbs]

5 minutes ago, Pierre said:

From RQG GM Screen :

Spirit Magic:.... If the spell is not successful, no magic points are expended.... 

Rune Magic:....On a fumble, the spell fails and the Rune points are lost. If the roll is a critical, the spell costs no Rune points.

Yes, that's RQG. I shouldn't really have digressed into RQ3 rules in this thread.

[Lordabdul]

Yeah it's already confusing enough with just the RQG rules that we don't need to reference previous editions   (this is where I really realize combat rules are the weak point of RQG).

Thanks for the write-up, @Sumath! Here are my comments:

• Statement of Intent (SoI) happens before players proceed with the round. As such, the Greydogs couldn't possibly have planned to cast healing magic or whatever this turn... or maybe they did? But I think they probably declared something like "I patrol along the path and if there's anything funky, I either attack or get behind cover, depending on the funkiness".
  • It's really surprising that there's no rule for changing your SoI... between +3 and +5 SR seems appropriate to me, because if there was no penalty, then ambushing somebody effectively only gives a penalty of +1 or +3 SR for "Surprise", and that feels not very, err, penalizing, especially when other RPGs typically make you skip your entire first round.
  • The Greydogs' SoI effectively amounts to a "Wait" maneuver for their round, and there's no rule for that either! Even though the actual example for SoI in the book is such a maneuver!
  • It gets especially hairy when a slow character attacks a fast one. What if the attack SR was, say, 10? Angtyr's Broadsword, with element of surprise, is SR 7+1=8. This means he could see a bunch of n00bs trying to ambush him, but he's so much better than them that he actually injures them first! I can certainly see this happening, but I would have imagined it happening for bigger differences in combat levels -- not just a mere +1 SR difference in the base SR! This means ambush is actually only helping a little bit in getting the upper hand, but not much? You wouldn't want to ambush spear-equipped Lunar soldiers with your Broadsword, then? Seems harsh!
• I would rule that Bodran can drop his sword to cast magic, and then pick it back up for +5 SR after the spell was cast. I would allow holding the weapon with the shield hand temporarily, but Bodran wants to use his shield to protect himself so that's not possible IMO. It might all be +5 SR anyway for any kind of grip change or whatever (not just dropping/picking up). If he didn't have any shield, he would have a free hand and would be able to cast right away, I think.
  • Ultimately, it doesn't make much difference -- dropping the sword (and saving 5 SR) doesn't free up enough time to cast Protection 2 in the same round anyway, so either way, Bodran still has to take 2 rounds spell-casting and then 5 SR to draw/pick up his sword somehow.
• I'm not sure why Bodran casts Heal on SR 9? The SR for the spell should be (assuming sheathing the sword as written) 5+3+1+2=11? (+5 for the sheathing, +3 for DEX, +1 for Surprise, +2 for additional magic points).
  • Oh I actually see that he rolls on SR 9 and the spell takes effect on SR 11... why the distinction? I can't find anything about that in the rules. I would just roll and take effect on SR 11.
• I like the idea of asking players ahead of time where their foci for their various spells is. Maybe they'll say their Heal spell focus is on their sword (so they can heal without sheathing/dropping the sword) but of course that means they can't use the spell quickly when their weapon is confiscated, or broken, or dropped, or whatever... I think they'll soon agree to put some of those spells on tattoos and jewellery.
• On Round 2, I don't think Chadestra can use her sling on SR 3... she threw a stone last round on SR 11, so she has to reload the sling before firing, so that would be resolved on SR 8? Same think for Drogarsi, who needs to reload an arrow? (this would mean they can't fire again on SR 11).
• Why does Drogarsi cast Bladesharp only on SR 12? Shouldn't it be SR 5+3+1=9? (+5 for switching weapons, +3 for DEX, +1 for additional magic points)
  • It looks like it was written with the thought that changing weapons is DEX SR + 5, but I think it's a flat +5 SR... otherwise, changing weapons and attacking would result in twice the DEX SR modifier applied, when that's not the case (changing weapon and attacking is just normal DEX and weapon SR plus 5... so it makes sense to me that changing weapons without attacking would be a flat +5 SR).
  • If I'm right, that would change a bunch of other rounds where there was also, IMO, double-dipping of DEX SR modifiers for picking up weapons/shields/etc.
• Any reason Bodran can re-attempt to remove the arrow only on SR 11? Doing multiple actions is usually a +5 SR affair, so why not on SR 8?

Thanks again!

Edited September 10, 2019 by lordabdul

[Sumath]

Okay, I've just updated the file with the amendments below.

I've added a little bit of explanatory detail around SR calculations just to make things obvious.

I've also changed two of Bodran's actions and one of Angtyr's:

Round 1, SR 4 - I've amended Bodran's strike rank actions so he now drops his sword and changes to spell casting, and I've added a note about there being no apparent penalties for changing Statement of Intent in RQG.

Round 2, SR 3 - Bodran's second spell attempt corrected to include his DEX SR, which has a consequence (see below)

Round 2, SR 4 - After moving, Angtyr now moves his sword to his shield hand to cast Protection instead of sheathing it, but still spends 5 SRs switching to spell casting.

Round 2, SR 11 - Bodran now gets impaled by the arrow before his spell would take effect, so it fails.

Round 4, SR 1 - Bodran therefore commits two extra magic points to his Heal Wound spell, so it goes off slightly later in the round. SR calculation also corrected for Rune spell with magic points.

[Sumath]

Thanks for your feedback, @lordabdul

13 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

As such, the Greydogs couldn't possibly have planned to cast healing magic or whatever this turn... or maybe they did?

No, they wouldn't have, but their SoI was pretty vague anyway. Their SoI just said they were waiting to assist Greydogs (so this could have included themselves!)

As RQG doesn't penalise SoI changes, I decided not to sweat it too much.

15 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

ambushing somebody effectively only gives a penalty of +1 or +3 SR for "Surprise", and that feels not very, err, penalizing

RQG actually only gives an ambush SR bonus if you're within 9m of your enemy, so strictly speaking I shouldn't apply anything by RAW, but I figured that missile fire deserved something. This is prime house ruling territory, I reckon.  What I could have done is granted the attackers a +40% to hit bonus as the Greydogs were unaware ('Attacking from Advantage or Disadvantage' p.223).

20 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I would rule that Bodran can drop his sword to cast magic, and then pick it back up for +5 SR after the spell was cast. I would allow holding the weapon with the shield hand temporarily,

Funnily enough, I've amended version 2.0.0 to just this.

21 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Oh I actually see that he rolls on SR 9 and the spell takes effect on SR 11... why the distinction? I can't find anything about that in the rules. I would just roll and take effect on SR 11

As per my reply to @Brootse above on this, rolling at the end of spell casting becomes problematic when you start doing long castings (e.g. Sorcery that takes two melee rounds) and only find out at the end whether you've wasted your time or not. If you fail your casting roll on the SR you begin, then you can abandon it and still do something else in the rest of the round - for me, rolling on the initial SR makes combat more versatile and interesting for players.

24 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I like the idea of asking players ahead of time where their foci for their various spells is

See my comments further up this thread. I think foci location should be recorded on character sheets, as it is tactically important.

26 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

On Round 2, I don't think Chadestra can use her sling on SR 3... she threw a stone last round on SR 11, so she has to reload the sling before firing, so that would be resolved on SR 8?

Between rounds SRs are reset. The only exception to this (AFAIK) is spell casting that takes more than one round  e.g. Sorcery.

32 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Why does Drogarsi cast Bladesharp only on SR 12? Shouldn't it be SR 5+3+1=9? (+5 for switching weapons, +3 for DEX, +1 for additional magic points)

You're absolutely right, because he is only casting magic once this round, he should start casting on SR 8 with it taking effect on SR 9 - I'll amend that. 

34 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

If I'm right, that would change a bunch of other rounds where there was also, IMO, double-dipping of DEX SR modifiers for picking up weapons/shields/etc

DEX SR gets applied a second time in the round when you attempt a second action (e.g. firing a bow twice).

35 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Any reason Bodran can re-attempt to remove the arrow only on SR 11? Doing multiple actions is usually a +5 SR affair, so why not on SR 8?

He fails on his DEX SR 3, so then waits 5 SRs plus his DEX SR to try again, same as if he were attempting cast a spell or fire a bow a second time. 

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, Sumath said:

Between rounds SRs are reset.

SRs are reset but she still starts the round with an unloaded sling -- so I think she would need an extra 5 SRs to reload. I wouldn't make reloads "free" between rounds.

2 hours ago, Sumath said:

DEX SR gets applied a second time in the round when you attempt a second action (e.g. firing a bow twice).

Sure but there are some situations where that wasn't the case. For instance in Round 4, Estavos drops his bow, readies his short spear, and moves -- there's no attack. So I think the spear should be ready on SR 5 (no DEX SR modifier included, just a flat +5 SR), and the move be done on SR 7 (by the way, I think it takes SR +2 for Estavos to move 5 meters? I think in the write-up it only takes him SR +1).

To be clear, my rationale for making weapon changes (sheathing, drawing, etc.) a flat +5 is that attacking with a ready weapon in DEX SR + Weapon SR, attacking with an unready weapon is DEX SR + Weapon SR + 5, so I figure that just readying the weapon without attacking must be +5.

2 hours ago, Sumath said:

He fails on his DEX SR 3, so then waits 5 SRs plus his DEX SR to try again, same as if he were attempting cast a spell or fire a bow a second time. 

Right, thanks.

Edited September 10, 2019 by lordabdul

[Sumath]

11 hours ago, lordabdul said:

SRs are reset but she still starts the round with an unloaded sling -- so I think she would need an extra 5 SRs to reload. I wouldn't make reloads "free" between rounds.

That's a good point, I'll amend that also so she just drops her sling and picks up her spear - she missed anyway, and it won't make any difference to her subsequent SR timings.

11 hours ago, lordabdul said:

For instance in Round 4, Estavos drops his bow, readies his short spear, and moves -- there's no attack. So I think the spear should be ready on SR 5 (no DEX SR modifier included, just a flat +5 SR), and the move be done on SR 7 (by the way, I think it takes SR +2 for Estavos to move 5 meters?

I'm not sure someone can take a physical action, even if it's just dropping a weapon, before their DEX SR, as this represents how quickly they can act. So for me - unless you're using Rune magic, which is divine and happens on SR 1 - a character's melee round actions begin on their DEX SR, at a minimum. In Estavos' case, his DEX SR is 2, +0 to drop his bow, and +5 to pick up his spear, taking him to SR 7. He then moves 5m (+2 SRs), so is behind Angtyr on SR 9.

[Sumath]

Estavos could have attacked Angtyr with his spear on SR 11, since he hadn't attacked that round.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Sumath

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Sumath said:

I'm not sure someone can take a physical action, even if it's just dropping a weapon, before their DEX SR, as this represents how quickly they can act.

If I need to draw my sword and attack, would you figure the DEX SR first, then 5 SR to draw the sword? Do I add in my DEX SR again to attack, or would you consider the drawing of the sword and attacking to be a single compound action and that it doesn't really matter whether the DEX SR is the first two or somewhere in the middle?

I don't think that the rules-as-written really back up the "no actions before DEX SR", although it's a reasonable extrapolation. Specifically I don't think it affects parries or dodges. If someone's melee SR is somehow below my DEX SR, that doesn't mean that I am entirely defenseless against that foe. Any artifacts of the 12-second melee round should be "well, I guess that's not too bad" rather than "ok, the rules are killing me".

[Sumath]

25 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

If I need to draw my sword and attack, would you figure the DEX SR first, then 5 SR to draw the sword? Do I add in my DEX SR again to attack, or would you consider the drawing of the sword and attacking to be a single compound action and that it doesn't really matter whether the DEX SR is the first two or somewhere in the middle?

For drawing a sword and attacking, I'd say you start drawing on your DEX SR, and complete the draw 5 SRs later, so can attack straight away then. I'm thinking that DEX SRs only get applied a second time in the event of a second success roll happening during a round (e.g. in the case of two missile weapon attacks: fire on DEX SR, reload for 5 SRs, then fire again after DEX SR).

25 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think that the rules-as-written really back up the "no actions before DEX SR", although it's a reasonable extrapolation. Specifically I don't think it affects parries or dodges. If someone's melee SR is somehow below my DEX SR, that doesn't mean that I am entirely defenseless against that foe. Any artifacts of the 12-second melee round should be "well, I guess that's not too bad" rather than "ok, the rules are killing me".

I'd say DEX SR only affects 'SR actions'. As parries and dodges take up no SRs they would be unaffected, so can happen at any time in the round. But equally, this would be the same for dropping a weapon (0 SRs) I suppose, but not to drawing one (5 SRs). In game terms, DEX SR is controlling who has initiative in the round, so it seems fair that anyone taking additional actions (like drawing a weapon) delays their attack/spell etc.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Sumath

[Sumath]

I am planning to post a summary of the learnings from the combat example write-up this evening.

[Lordabdul]

3 hours ago, Sumath said:

For drawing a sword and attacking, I'd say you start drawing on your DEX SR, and complete the draw 5 SRs later, so can attack straight away then. I'm thinking that DEX SRs only get applied a second time in the event of a second success roll happening during a round (e.g. in the case of two missile weapon attacks: fire on DEX SR, reload for 5 SRs, then fire again after DEX SR).

I can see your rationale but I don't really like how reloading/readying a weapon sometimes gets DEX SR applied and sometimes doesn't... it sounds like you avoid the DEX SR modifier if the reloading/readying is part of another action that already includes it or something? I imagine this might lead to some exception situation(s) eventually, but as long as you're consistent, that's fine.

By the way, I was incorrect in saying that a "Wait" maneuver wasn't addressed in the rules, there's a small bit of text at the bottom of p192 that say: "Any combatant can delay an action and go on a later strike rank, if desired.".

Edited September 11, 2019 by lordabdul

[Sumath]

I've now uploaded v3.0.0. of the combat example. Hopefully all should be okay now.

[Bill the barbarian]

15 minutes ago, Sumath said:

I've now uploaded v3.0.0. of the combat example. Hopefully all should be okay now.

Hey Sumath, finally had a moment to look so I downloaded 3.0 and started to skim, to get familiar with the idea and formatting and it dawned on me... not seeing SIZ... that’s okay, spells slings and spells (oh my) no need for SIZ here... by the time i get melee, there it will be...

but, skimmed to melee without seeing it... so I search for SIZ to be told no...

Again, just skimmed so I might have missed a note explain your rational (for instance did you just add it in and not show the stat in the posted examples?) so must ask how are you calculating SR sans SIZ? Will check back later.

Cheers

 

[Sumath]

20 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

not seeing SIZ...

The total weapon SR in parenthesis on each character's description at the beginning includes SIZ and weapon strike ranks.

But as most of the first few rounds are missile and spell casting, there's lots of stuff happening on DEX SRs. It's not until Chadestra uses her spear that we get a melee attack that includes SIZ SR.

There's lots of stuff I didn't include in this combat example (e.g. augments, spirit combat, dodging, etc) so maybe I'll do another example in future with more melee.

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Sumath

[Bill the barbarian]

5 minutes ago, Sumath said:

There's lots of stuff I didn't include in this combat example (e.g. augments, spirit combat, dodging, etc) so maybe I'll do another example in future with more melee.

 

Thanks, that is what I assumed, Off for a bit and I will continue my perusal later. Worth noting, I agree that spells should be charged MPs (or not depending on rolls) on casting by RAW but I like your explanation as a HR.

As lordabdull says so well, you start a new MR with an unloaded sling (I am unsure what an automatic sling might look like but my duck will trade a cross bow for one.)

Cheers and thanks for your great patience...

[richievh]

Just a doubt. I am relatively new to RQ:G so I may be getting something wrong.

I get it that Chadestra has to reload her sling at the start of round 2 (thus bringing her SR to 8). Doesn't Estavos need to do the same? I see him firing at SR 2 and 9 every round, but shouldn't he have to reload as Chadestra?

[Lordabdul]

26 minutes ago, richievh said:

shouldn't he have to reload as Chadestra?

Welcome! And yes, he would have to.