Summon (Entity) rules questions

[Akhôrahil]

I would put this in the Core Rules Questions thread, but that one is looking increasingly dead and does not allow discussions, so I'm making a thread instead.

*

Summon (entity)
Variable
Ritual, Active
To cast this spell, the caster must inform the gamemaster
of the Summon (entity) spell being used. Shamans and
adventurers normally summon only spirit entities. The
summoner states how many magic points they are using,
and the summoner cannot use more magic points than
are available. If the number of magic points used is less
than the magic points possessed by the specific entity being
summoned (as generated by the gamemaster), then the ritual
automatically fails. The magic points powering the Summon
spell are expended whether it succeeds or not.

*

I'm getting a number of questions here. First, what does "Variable" mean here? The immediate answer is "how big a summon you can get", but that doesn't work with the description text. The description lets you spend as many Magic Points as available, with no cap by the size of the Summon spell. Also, you cannot normally modify the size of a Spirit Magic spell once you have it, so if you had, say, Summon (Thunderlung Disease Spirit) 12, you would have to cast it at 12. But if the size of the spell doesn't affect what you can summon, why is it even stackable? The fact that the MPs used for the spell are lost if it fails -- unlike normal MP expenditure for Spirit Magic spell - also indicates that these are expended outside of regular casting.

It's of monumental importance whether you have to have a 1-point spell or 15-point spell in order to summon a 15 MP entity.

It's been suggested that having it Stackable means that you can summon multiple entities at once. This makes sense (but you would have to have a pretty big MP reserve before you start to go around summoning multiple entities). For some of the questions below, I'm assuming that you can get any size summoning out of a 1 pt spell.  

Second, is this summons permanent? It certainly seems so from the rules text (although at least it's Active, so that limits the abuse potential). As it's Active though, does that mean that you can get rid of the entity by just not focusing on the spell? That certainly makes hostile entities into much less of a problem!

Third, if you have a ton of magic points available (and you only need a one-point spell), doesn't this spell become extremely powerful? If you're Lunars, using MP crystals and the like to summon some 100 MP lunar spirit that is at least more likely to be hostile to the Orlanthi scum than to you seems... potent. Even more 30 MP spirits tend to be pretty nasty.

Fourth, what does dispelling look like here? Is it just a one-point Spirit Magic spell for dispelling purposes (assuming the above reading), no matter how many magic points you dumped into it? This makes even more reasonable summoning useless if the face of active opposition, and question 3 certainly gets addressed right away! No-one will bother with a big summons if what you get just gets trivially dispelled by the opposition.

Fifth, Dispel again: I'm assuming that what you need to target with a dispel spell is the entity itself, correct? Not, for instance, the caster?

Sixth: Is my reading correct that you can't summon something in order to beat it up in Spirit Combat yourself (for purposes of binding, learning Spirit Magic, or the ever-ridiculous Disease Spirit harvesting), but that you can do it for someone else to beat up? (The reason you can't do it yourself is because it's an Active spell and Active spells drop once you get attacked in Spirit Combat.) 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

I'm surprised no-one has bothered to tackle this.

Sorry it's me who's going to start, because it would be here, unprofessional, player opinion... 

 

Firstly, yes to as many MPs you can dump into it, rather than having to learn higher levels of the spell. I base this on - relative uselessness of a 1-pt spell; and the wording.

Secondly, it would make sense that the Variable option allows for multiple entities... But that's only in consideration of the above making the Variable tag mean something else. (As well as that Summon Spirit Dog 4 thing from somewhere)

Active... I'm uncertain. It makes sense that it needs concentration for the spell itself to finally summon the entity to where you are (I'd suggest non-instantaneous), but after it arrives it stays (visible??) for the regular 2 minutes of a Spirit Magic spell. And thus, no.concentration required. (Obviously, others may suggest that you need to concentrate to keep the spirit local and not have *the option* of leaving.... Which responds to your bit about dropping concentration as a way of removing hostile spirits)

Dispel... Perhaps the spirit is forced back to the spirit plane? Perhaps it's useless altogether once the spirit arrives? (Given we have Dismiss Elemental, the latter is plausible).

I can't see any reason you couldn't get into spirit combat with it, especially if it's hostile. If it's not hostile, you'll have a problem if you can't Control it, or have Spiritspeech... What gestures do spirits consider rude enough to want to attack you after being neutral or friendly??

If we assume that the spirit is temporarily tied to the summoning location, and doesn't become visible, then the summoner is going to need some way to see/perceive it.

 

I miss the Ritual skill.... 

[GAZZA]

That looks like a mess, for sure. I think it pretty much has to be a 1 point spell because otherwise there's no feasible way your average magician will be able to summon two decent kinds of spirits (although a shaman can just discorporate and go hunting I guess); the main point of it having a cost historically (e.g. RQ3) was so that you still had to devote some INT (now CHA) to memorising it (or have a matrix, or a spirit, or whatever).

I don't have a solid answer for the rest of your points though @Akhôrahil - and I can even add another in that it would appear that this sort of thing can't be done solo (unless you're really high INT and fancy your chances of nailing that INTx3 roll once you cast Control Species afterwards - and Orlanth help you if you get attacked or whatever, since then you have 2 Active spells to roll concentration for). I suppose you could rule that a Summoned entity is automatically hostile to whoever summoned it, to get around the "let the spirit loose and hope it goes after your foes first" loophole... but that's nothing more than a house rule at best. It's interesting that the most common case where you'd have someone try to do this with spirit magic would presumably be shamans, but they are also the least likely to need to (as above, just discorporate, find the spirit you want, and bash it into service).

[French Desperate WindChild]

I would use the same view than rune spell (with the x2 rate)

1) that's for me the only issue, i may be wrong but :

2pt -> you can summon spirit like 1 POW divine magic (aka 3D6 magic points)

4pt -> you can summon spirit like 2POW divine magic (aka 3D6+6 magic points)

6pt -> you can summon spirit like 3POW divine magic (aka 4D6+6 magic points)

 

then the magic points are used to overcome the spirits points (3d6, 3d6+6, 4d6+6, ...)

 

 

2) once here the spirit does what it wants (except any control spell) it can stay , attack, go back, etc

3) I disagree to see one player with ton of magic but if there is. The magic points needs depends on your strategy (the point 1) of course you can burn 100 MP to be sure to summon a little sylph if you want.

4-5) There is nothing to dispel but to disturb. When you are summoning, you can be block by any means (sword, spell, ...) why not dispell but I don't know the effect it can give (in this case dispell must follow the point 1 to identify how many points you need) . You cannot dispell the spirit when it is here.

6) I consider you can summon for "yourself": it is active because until the spirit is here you need to concentrate on this action. When it is here, it is here. You don't have to be concentrate then, so you can start another action.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Personally I would assume that the "variable" is a mistake, a misinterpretation of the mechanism that you spend MPs to summon a spirit. Someone saw that and thought "Need MPs to summon a spirit... that means it's variable..."

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, PhilHibbs said:

Personally I would assume that the "variable" is a mistake, a misinterpretation of the mechanism that you spend MPs to summon a spirit. Someone saw that and thought "Need MPs to summon a spirit... that means it's variable..."

Unfortunately, rules questions no longer seem to get answered, so it's impossible to tell.

[tnli]

For my game I've suggested my players the interpretation that there are different levels of entitities that are Summon able with the Summon Entity spell, and you need the correct level spell to summon the entity. The levels can be found from the Summon Cult Spirit and Summon Elemental rune spells, for example. 

So, in order to summon a medium air elemental you would need to know Summon (Air Elemental) 2, and you would need to cast the spell at level 2, costing 2 magic points, and then add on enough magic points extra to equal or exceed the elementals POW. Unless great preparation is done, this last part I would see as a gamble, ie you would have to guess the amount of magic points to use, unless you had some previous intel about this specific elemental.

Edited March 6, 2020 by tnli
Elemental magic points to POW

[Akhôrahil]

38 minutes ago, tnli said:

For my game I've suggested my players the interpretation that there are different levels of entitities that are Summon able with the Summon Entity spell, and you need the correct level spell to summon the entity. The levels can be found from the Summon Cult Spirit and Summon Elemental rune spells, for example. 

I like this, especially since it's how Rune Magic Elemental Summoning works.

[gochie]

On 2/25/2020 at 6:16 AM, Akhôrahil said:

Also, you cannot normally modify the size of a Spirit Magic spell once you have it, so if you had, say, Summon (Thunderlung Disease Spirit) 12, you would have to cast it at 12.

Not quite. You're allowed to use lower versions of the spell. 

That said, here's my take on this... The way I see it RAW should answer all your questions. 

You will need Summon (entity) 10 to Summon an entity with 10 MP. You can choose to cast Summon entity 1 (or anything less than 10), which is what is meant by "choose how many mps you use". This obviously greatly limits how powerful the entities you can summon are, and makes powerful summoning magic extremely difficult to obtain. 

A summoned creature can't be dispelled, because it's here now, permanently . The summoning itself is the spell, which acts like an instant spell but takes time to cast. Once the creature is here there is no more magic in play, and your "active" spellcasting ends. You can now barter, spirit combat, whatever, freely.

Hope this helps, and I agree that the whole "choose how many mps you spend" bit is worded VERY badly.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, gochie said:

Not quite. You're allowed to use lower versions of the spell. 

I don't think this is true. Do you have a rules quote for it?

(I mean, you can explicitly know the same spell at several different strengths - the rules say so, and it would be meaningless if you could just cast it at a lower strength - but I assume that you mean that you can deliberately "tune down" your spell, and I don't believe this is supported.)

Edited March 6, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[gochie]

48 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Do you have a rules quote for it?

p. 248 under Variable/Nonvariable Spell:

"An adventurer can know a powerful variable spell and cast a weaker version of that spell."

[Akhôrahil]

22 minutes ago, gochie said:

p. 248 under Variable/Nonvariable Spell:

"An adventurer can know a powerful variable spell and cast a weaker version of that spell."

Thanks, that settles it!

I still don't think this answers the original question about Summon, though.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[gochie]

45 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Thanks, that settles it!

I still don't think this answers the original question about Summon, though.

Which one? Thought I touched everything lol

[Akhôrahil]

Just now, gochie said:

Which one? Thought I touched everything lol

It's still not just a variable spell, I think, because MPs spent for it behave in a way that's not how Spirit Magic works (MPs are lost on failed casting, which is how it works for Boosting but not for casting). Plus that it's dubious from a practical perspective that you need a giant 10pt spell in order to summon a very moderately sized spirit of 10 POW.  

[gochie]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's still not just a variable spell, I think, because MPs spent for it behave in a way that's not how Spirit Magic works (MPs are lost on failed casting, which is how it works for Boosting but not for casting). Plus that it's dubious from a practical perspective that you need a giant 10pt spell in order to summon a very moderately sized spirit of 10 POW.  

I agree it's a strange spell as written, and perhaps what I'm describing is not exactly as intended... But it's all we've got 🤷‍♂️. 

So for your first point, look at it as if you're summoning a portal that brings forth an entity. Your spell succeeds, so you lose your MPs, but the entity is not pulled into the portal (ie "resists). So your spell was successful but yielded no results, just like a resisted beffudle spell. 

As for your second point, the spell is actually incredibly powerful, which is why it takes so many points to pull a powerful entity across. You're summoning a spirit to you "permanently" (it probably escapes if you don't react and attack/control/communicate with it, but still).

You don't have to spirit travel to find spirits, which is huge for assistant shamans. If the assistant forces the entity to attack him, he farms checks in his spirit combat skills and POW without spending a single rune point. Plus, you can bind multiple small spirits in enchantments or to a shaman's fetch, which can add up to a huge ammount of MP storage, plus whatever spirit magic you can force them to use or learn from them.

Once again, you get all this by only spending MPs, and without needing a shaman at all.

[GAZZA]

Here's another point - what does it even mean for a ritual spell to be Active? Ritual spells typically don't have a duration (and this appears to be no exception - as noted, it would appear that having been Summoned the entity can pretty much bugger off and do whatever it likes unless forced in some other way). That means that of the three descriptors (Variable, Ritual, Active) only one of them is clear in its intent.

Also I'm not sure this is the boon for assistant shamans you think it is @gochie - if the prospective assistant shaman wants to cast Control, he has to reduce the spirit to 0 MPs first. As an assistant shaman cannot discorporate, and spirits cannot be compelled to enter spirit combat, there does not seem to be any way to force a neutral or hostile spirit to comply with your wishes. Then again... Spirit Binding doesn't make any mention of the spirit having to be willing...

Wait.

It would seem, RAW, if I have a Binding Enchantment prepared that I've sacrificed sufficient POW for, then if I encounter a 20000000 POW spirit that would "fit" in the binding enchantment, Spirit Binding gives it no resistance, no way to avoid being bound. What am I missing here? RQ3 didn't have this - you used Control (Species) to force a spirit into a binding enchantment (which, depending on the variant spirit/Divine/Sorcery, might require you to have bested the spirit in spirit combat first or at the very least to overcome its MP on the resistance table). If you still need to do that, it's not clear what Spirit Binding even does.

I'm clearly missing something here; the rules on Binding Enchantments pp249-250 clearly state that Spirit Binding is a control spell, and also note that Control (Species) still works, so... does that really mean that with Spirit Binding all that dangerous mucking about with having to force spirits into your enchantments is no longer needed?

[gochie]

6 hours ago, GAZZA said:

spirits cannot be compelled to enter spirit combat

I think the Distraction spell taunts a spirit. 

Either way you can cast control (entity) to force the spirit into your Binding enchantment.

The only time control spells can't be resisted is when the spirit is already in a binding enchantment. 

[GAZZA]

9 minutes ago, gochie said:

I think the Distraction spell taunts a spirit. 

Either way you can cast control (entity) to force the spirit into your Binding enchantment.

The only time control spells can't be resisted is when the spirit is already in a binding enchantment. 

Distraction only works if it's already in spirit combat. And RAW, it appears Spirit Binding does not allow any resistance. (If it does, it's not really clear why it exists at all, since if it can be resisted it is presumably identical to Control).

[gochie]

10 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Distraction only works if it's already in spirit combat. And RAW,

True, it does RAW. 

10 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Spirit Binding does not allow any resistance.

A Binding Enchantment doesn't target a spirit... It targets an item or unintelligent creature, and only creates the "space" that a Spirit can be shoved into.

You need to somehow control the spirit to force it into the binding enchantment. 

[GAZZA]

Not Binding Enchantment. Spirit Binding. 1 point spell, new in RQG. You still need a Binding Enchantment. But you don't need any sort of contest to control the spirit - Spirit Binding just works (it doesn't even need to be specific to a type of spirit unlike Control).

[gochie]

4 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Not Binding Enchantment. Spirit Binding. 1 point spell, new in RQG. You still need a Binding Enchantment. But you don't need any sort of contest to control the spirit - Spirit Binding just works (it doesn't even need to be specific to a type of spirit unlike Control).

Ah my bad, forgot about that spell. Either way, the creature resists if it doesn't want to be bound, just like any other "offensive" spell.

Spells don't need to specify they can be resisted, rather the opposite. 

[GAZZA]

1 minute ago, gochie said:

Ah my bad, forgot about that spell. Either way, the creature resists if it doesn't want to be bound, just like any other "offensive" spell.

Spells don't need to specify they can be resisted, rather the opposite. 

Well, two points:

First, do you have any other example spell that is supposed to be resisted but doesn't specify it? Because frankly I'm unaware of it.

Second, Control requires you to force the creature down to 0 MP in spirit combat first. So even if I accept that Spirit Binding requires you to overcome its POW - and I am by no means convinced of that - it's still better than Control (even ignoring that Control has to specify an entity type; Control Wraith and Control Ghost are different spells, Spirit Binding works on either).

[Akhôrahil]

19 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

First, do you have any other example spell that is supposed to be resisted but doesn't specify it? Because frankly I'm unaware of it.

Lots and lots of them - since you get to resist anything that doesn't specify that you don't get to, almost all spells can be resisted. Slow, Lie and Peace are some examples off of the top of my head.

[gochie]

33 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

First, do you have any other example spell that is supposed to be resisted but doesn't specify it? Because frankly I'm unaware of it.

Plenty of examples, but I'll just point you to this quote: p. 254. "All targets, except voluntary ones, resist spells cast at them and need to be overcome (POW vs. POW) with a resistance roll". 

35 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

it's still better than Control

Yep. It sounds like this spell is probably meant to be used by priests instead of shamans. Not sure why they made it this way, but RAW it is definitely better.

[GAZZA]

Fair enough on the resisted spells.