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Questions about Lunar regiments during the early Hero Wars

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I have a number of questions about the composition of the Lunar Army in Tarsh after the DragonRise.

First off, who were the Native Furthest Corps - were there a bunch of different regiments Like the Heartlands Corps, or was this the provincial army and as such did not have regimental differentiation?
 


I assume the highest level of differentiation of Lunar units is the Native Furthest Corps and the Heartlands Corp?  



What were the composition of the Lunar armies during the Battle of Dangerford and The Battle of the Queens? 



Were they entirely Tarshite, or did they also have Heartlands Corps elements? 



Forgive me if there is a single post somewhere dealing with all this. 

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1 minute ago, JavaApp said:

I have a number of questions about the composition of the Lunar Army in Tarsh after the DragonRise.

Do you have access to the Armies and Enemies of Dragon Pass that Martin Helsdon wrote and available through the Jonstown Compendium?  That's by far the best source to answer most of these questions.

3 minutes ago, JavaApp said:

who were the Native Furthest Corps - were there a bunch of different regiments Like the Heartlands Corps, or was this the provincial army and as such did not have regimental differentiation?

Yes, there are distinct regiments, though most are raised out of specific cities and go by those designations (e.g. 1st Furthest Foot, Goldedge Foot). These are the same names/designations as on the WBRM counters. They are part of the Provincial Army.

8 minutes ago, JavaApp said:

I assume the highest level of differentiation of Lunar units is the Native Furthest Corps and the Heartlands Corp?  

There are others, e.g. Imperial Bodyguard, Cavalry Corps, Great Sister's Army, Lunar College of Magic, etc.

11 minutes ago, JavaApp said:

What were the composition of the Lunar armies during the Battle of Dangerford and The Battle of the Queens? 

Most of these are detailed in Martin's work. Dangerford had both Lunar and provincial units.  Battle of the Queens was mostly provincial/Tarshite.  In both cases, these were units not at the Dragonrise.

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8 hours ago, JavaApp said:

I have a number of questions about the composition of the Lunar Army in Tarsh after the DragonRise.

First off, who were the Native Furthest Corps - were there a bunch of different regiments Like the Heartlands Corps, or was this the provincial army and as such did not have regimental differentiation?

All the provincial kingdom armies had a regimental structure, sometimes local, sometimes, as with many Tarsh regiments partially or wholly Lunarized. Some were basically a militia and others highly professional.

8 hours ago, JavaApp said:

What were the composition of the Lunar armies during the Battle of Dangerford and The Battle of the Queens? 

Were they entirely Tarshite, or did they also have Heartlands Corps elements?  

In both cases, the provincial armies were augmented by regiments from the Lunar Army.

As Harald has noted, you may find https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/296535/The-Armies-and-Enemies-of-Dragon-Pass?src=hottest_filtered of interest.

The Lunar Army was divided into various corps, based on their type and their allocation to field armies. The Lunar Army has a complicated organization.

Edited by M Helsdon
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The Lunar's (and likely others) also made extensive use of Mercenaries who vary in formation, discipline and composition (From Tusk Rider Warbands to groups like The Company of the Manticore described in The Smoking Ruins)  

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Plenty of info about battle of Queens in this thread https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/10383-another-question-for-the-sages/?tab=comments#comment-154100

The most relevant bit for original question

Lunars

Army Commander: King Pharandros 

Veterans Horse – 500 veteran cavalry

Landholders Horse – 500 regular cavalry

1st Furthest Foot – 1000 foot levy

2nd Furthest Foot – 1000 foot levy

Silver Shields – 1000 veteran foot - Southern Corps

Dalini Foot – 1000 regular foot - Provincial Army

Minor Class – 50 magicians - LCM

So the majority are Tarshite - 3,000 troops of 5,000, but there also troops from the Southern Corps and Provincial Army, plus a small contribution from the Lunar College of Magic.

The Heartland Corps and the Cavalry Corps are off dealing with Pentans far away, but it’s not  just Tarshites. the Silver Shields are from Sylila, the Dalini foot from Mirin's Cross. 

 

Edited by davecake
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The battle of Dangerford, according to Eleven Lights (but noting this is 'paper strength', real numbers substantially lower.

 Provincial Army
Veterans Cavalry: 500 Heavy Cavalry.

2nd Furthest Cavalry: 500 Heavy Cavalry.

3rd Furthest Cavalry: 500 Heavy Cavalry.

Bagnot Foot: 1000 Heavy Infantry.

Dunstop Foot: 1000 Heavy Infantry.

1st Furthest Foot: 1000 Heavy Infantry.

2nd Furthest Foot: 1000 Heavy Infantry.

Goldedge Foot: 1000 Heavy Infantry.

Talfort Foot: 1000 Heavy Infantry.


Cavalry Corps
Antelope Lancers: 500 Heavy Cavalry.

Bell Temple: 500 Heavy Cavalry.

Char-un: 500 Heavy Cavalry.

Whipstock: 500 Heavy Cavalry.

Arrowstone: 500 Heavy Cavalry.

Goldwave: 500 Heavy Cavalry.

Uplands: 500 Heavy Cavalry.
Queen’s Horse: 500 Heavy Cavalry.

Starkin: 500 Light Cavalry.
Moon Arrow: 500 Light Cavalry.

So 7,500 Tarshite, 5,000 Cavalry Corps from all across the Empire 

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23 hours ago, JavaApp said:

I assume the highest level of differentiation of Lunar units is the Native Furthest Corps and the Heartlands Corp?  

Armies and Enemies suggests the definition of what a 'corps' is in the Lunar Army is a bit more complex. (see pg 248)

Sometimes a corps is an official designation for units based in the Heartland - the traditional Imperial Bodyguard, Heartland Corps, and Cavalry Corps, plus the Magical Corps which is dominated enough by the Lunar College of Magic that they are often used synonymously (though I'm sure non-Lunar magical units like the Spell Archers are more aware of the difference). The Provincial Army is treated as a fifth corps from the Lunar Heartland point of view, and the sixth corps is technically the Sisters Army, commanded by Great Sister, but its a very different institution to even the Magical Corps, as its an almost entirely magical and spiritual institution, and deals in very different magic that seems of a far less practically martial nature. All these Corps are ancient, dating mostly from the early days of Empire, and don't change much. 

The four base corps, the Heartland, Cavalry, Imperial Bodyguard and Magical Corps, are divided into Divisions and Brigades, according to A&E, but I don't recall them being mentioned before. I suspect they are much looser and more flexible than our modern equivalents, in particular Brigades being reorganised for individual campaigns, and changing with political whims somewhat - or is this just that the Divisions and Brigades are largely superceded by the organisation of the Field Armies in the field? But they definitely matter for things like where logistics support comes from, and I suspect the great houses, most of whom have many members involved in the military (eg Sor-Eel of the Eel-Ariash) as well as provincial administration and of course the heartland satrapies, care a great deal about the details. 

Then there are the Field Corps, a designation for a practical mobile army, which is a more practical term, there seems to be some confusion over whether these are better titled Field Armies - the Heartland Corps is also a field corps, but the Cavalry Corps especially is regarded as a division whose units are re-assigned between the different Field Corps, the Provincial Corps is not quite the same as the Provincial Army (even though the Army is technically a Corps) and the Southern and Eastern Corps are formally Imperial Field Armies not formal Corps in as far as the Heartland army is concerned. I gather units are regularly moved into and out of the field armies/Field Corps at need, and the Southern and Eastern Corps are basically the two field armies representing all the campaigns in Dragon Pass/Holy Country/Prax, and the campaigns against the Pentans, respectively? I found all this pretty confusing! I've probably got some of it wrong, and I'm summarising it half in an attempt to make sense of it in my own head. The Northern Corps seems to have been effectively abolished due to embarrrasment over the Parg Ilsi affair (and it would seem to be currently an army aimed at its own people or long established allies, there not being much to the North), and the West Corps doesn't seem active as of the 1620s, probably because it fell into inactivity during the Ban or because of some complication of Carmanian politics or feeling the Arrolian states made a sufficient buffer that a field army was unnecessary. Pulling the Western Corps back into a big active field army presumably happens decades later in the Hero Wars when the Lunars make a military push into Fronela along the Janube. 

Everything below the Field Army/Field Corps level seems to be fairly ad hoc and changes with every campaign? 

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6 hours ago, davecake said:

Everything below the Field Army/Field Corps level seems to be fairly ad hoc and changes with every campaign? 

That seems pretty realistic to me. Standing numbers probably vary wildly (not only from campaign to campaign, but also between campaigning and inactive periods), with "paper strength" being mostly a theoretical, administrative fiction, and organizational charts are probably drawn and redrawn for almost every muster and with every shift in command both to satisfy tactical and logistical needs and the egos of noble commanders. On the higher end the organizations might appear to follow certain military traditions of the Empire, both for legal and magical reasons, but on the ground things might get a lot more improvisational.

I could be wrong though, not a military history expert.

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7 hours ago, davecake said:

I found all this pretty confusing! I've probably got some of it wrong, and I'm summarising it half in an attempt to make sense of it in my own head.

Yes, it is confusing, and intended to be so, there's even a footnote about it!

The other corps are well established in canon, but the field army corps were derived from a document Jeff kindly shared with me, which detailed the field armies of the south and east. These field armies probably have their origin in the earlier Dara Happan field armies. 

A level of well defined doubt and uncertainty lends both wriggle room, and realism, as ancient armies (even those of the Successors and Romans) weren't as neat and tidy as modern military organisations. In the Lunar system pretty much any unit, of any of the corps, can be reallocated to another, including augmenting the provincial army, the exceptions being the Cavalry Corps which consists solely of cavalry and of course the Magical.

If you have a copy of 'Armies & Enemies' there should be some extras at the back of the latest pdf, including the strengths of the Lunar Army in different regions and years, which conveys just how fluid things are, and the losses, and the ability of the Lunars to rebuild relatively rapidly (though newer units are often basically militia).

Edited by M Helsdon
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