Characteristics training

[Brootse]

48 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

This came up back in RQ2 days as well.  There was a whole article written on it in one of the old Different World issues, including a skill for it IIRC, but overall it just added complexity.

I added Teching skill to my RQ3 campaign, but no PC ever used it, so to simplify things I didn't add it to the RQG. Perhaps it's time to get it back.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Brootse

[David Scott]

37 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Would those ideas include introducing a a Teaching skill???

i've thought about it for years. Teaching was one of the few skills that I would add to RQG (and CoC), although I tend to think now that it's actually easier to imagine it as equal to CHAx5. However that's likely too controversial for many. I only ever bring it up if there's some kind of player interaction with the teacher or research into how good they are. Having worked in education myself, I can generalise that there are basically those that could and those that couldn't teach. Combine that with level of knowledge or skill in their subjects, and I found extremes of excellent teachers that, didn't know enough (not enough experience yet) and those that were very knowledgable, but terrible teachers, with everything else in-between. CHAx5 seems obvious after that in an opposed roll vs the student's skill. Here were my findings, results are the % increase. 

	Fumble	Fail	Success	Critical
Fumble	-1	0	0	0
Fail	0	0	1	1
Success	0	1	3	4
Critical	0	1	4	6

Ultimately it's too fiddly for my tastes. So I ignore it and get on with the game.

[Brootse]

Trainers were an important part of the old Pavis campaign, and made for good roleplaying situations. And the skill could be an interesting addition to the RQG Apple Lane campaign, where you have your own militia.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

for any other ability, training is capped at 75%.

Which is also really weird - you think people who are utterly excellent at stuff didn’t get there by training their asses off? It seems like someone’s idea at a balancing rule, not something that has anything  to do with modelling reality.

[Akhôrahil]

On 5/7/2020 at 9:43 PM, HreshtIronBorne said:

Does someone need better characteristics than the PC to train them in that stat? 

Not by the rules, and not really going by the real world either. The trainer needs to know what works for training, not have a higher stat.

[Joerg]

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Which is also really weird - you think people who are utterly excellent at stuff didn’t get there by training their asses off? It seems like someone’s idea at a balancing rule, not something that has anything  to do with modelling reality.

That rule existed already in RQ3, which means I have long come to accept it.

From reaching 75% onwards, you are in research territory, finding your own way, with the risk of doing some contraproductive training.

Having a trainer might give you a bonus on your ability success roll (actually failure roll) to see whether you increase the skill. The risk of negative or no increase remains. That's not in the rules as written, but would make a sensible house rule.

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

There are no rules saying that the trainer can't get trained by someone else during the same season.

Given that being trained implies that they "can't do anything else during that season", it means to me they don't have time to be teaching. So nope, they can't do both.

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

This came up back in RQ2 days as well.  There was a whole article written on it in one of the old Different World issues, including a skill for it IIRC, but overall it just added complexity.

I think complexity here is fine because it adds one more roll sometimes between adventures. Adding complexity needs to be managed less closely here than during actual play (especially action scenes). YMMV of course.

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

i've thought about it for years.

Thanks for sharing! Frankly, I think it could be polished and bit and published in an RQ Companion book or something. FWIW I would have instinctively gone with rules that improve your chances at the experience gain roll (rolling above your stat), and not with bonuses to the actual percentage gain roll (d4/d6). Maybe that would result in less "fiddly" results?

31 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Which is also really weird - you think people who are utterly excellent at stuff didn’t get there by training their asses off? It seems like someone’s idea at a balancing rule, not something that has anything  to do with modelling reality.

Experts and master do train, yes, but I think the 75% rule doesn't mean you can't train anymore -- it means you can't train under another master. 75% is basically when the student becomes the master. It's when you leave your dojo and go make your own school. It's when you stop reading books on philosophy and start writing your own theories. It's when you leave <famous scientist>'s lab and start your own research.

This is somewhat modeled with the "Experience Between Adventures" rules on RQG p416: you can select up to 4 occupational or cult skills, and get experience checks in them, even if you didn't get a check during an actual (played) adventure. This indeed models people continuing to practice (and train) their main skills during the rest of the season.

Edited May 9, 2020 by lordabdul

[Akhôrahil]

26 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Experts and master do train, yes, but I think the 75% rule doesn't mean you can't train anymore -- it means you can't train under another master. 75% is basically when the student becomes the master. It's when you leave your dojo and go make your own school. It's when you stop reading books on philosophy and start writing your own theories. It's when you leave <famous scientist>'s lab and start your own research.

I don't know... take the best athletes in the world, and I can guarantee you that they all but universally have a trainer (well, multiple, most likely).

Edited May 9, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Brootse]

25 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Given that being trained implies that they "can't do anything else during that season", it means to me they don't have time to be teaching. So nope, they can't do both.

Unless it's a part of their job.

 

[Lordabdul]

10 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Unless it's a part of their job.

Yep, correct.

14 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I don't know... take the best athletes in the world, and I can guarantee you that they all but universally have a trainer (well, multiple, most likely).

Yeah but at that point, the coach (and their team) are more there to provide and enforce a well structured training schedule, general fitness maintenance, nutritional programs, and so on than, you know, actually teaching the athlete how to play soccer/skate/run fast/whatever. At best, a coach might provide high level tactical training and team-building (for team sports),  or whatever, but it's not so much just a matter of walking up to the nearest sport club, flashing some money, and say "hey train me for 3 months, please". You have to hire that coach from that other country that trained so and so successfully. In Glorantha, it would be about seeking that one Rune Lord from that one temple, or something. At this point, it's not rules driven but GM/story driven. MGF. Do whatever works for you!

Edited May 9, 2020 by lordabdul

[Shiningbrow]

9 hours ago, lordabdul said:

FWIW I would have instinctively gone with rules that improve your chances at the experience gain roll (rolling above your stat), and not with bonuses to the actual percentage gain roll (d4/d6). Maybe that would result in less "fiddly" results?

I gotta disagree. Coming from both teacher and student, that doesn't seem the best way to account for learning.

The best example I've got was doing formal logic. First couple of weeks was a PhD tutor - it was terrible! A few of us were going backwards (fumbles from the teacher). The real lecturer came in (finally) and the successes (and crits) were rolled! The way things were explained made everything easy...

I'd almost take the student out of the roll (except for willingness, and whether what's taught is actually known), and leave it all up to the teacher's skills... 

[Lordabdul]

35 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'd almost take the student out of the roll (except for willingness, and whether what's taught is actually known), and leave it all up to the teacher's skills... 

Sure, feel free to make a new thread for training house rules