Using Magic in a Duel

[MMan]

I have found several mentions that duels are a thing in Orlanthi culture (and maybe with Lunars / Praxians also?).

However, I wonder whether duelists are allowed to use magic in their duel? As various kinds of magic are very common in Glorantha, it feels like all magic is much stronger part of each character's core being. Not just learned tricks and conjurations that shape the reality like in many other fantasy worlds, but instead very personal and everyday affair (spirit magic) and deeply connected to the who the character actually is (rune magic, sorcery, runes and links to gods the character serves).

However, when considering from where the magic and power actually comes from and how the culture is formed around cults and spirits, I could see it getting more complicated. Consider two Orlanthi warriors from Orlanth's cult dueling: If they would use Rune Magic, they would actually invoke the very power of their common god to slay another who follows the same god. Basically they would weaken their own god by killing another of Orlanth's follower using the god's own powers.

Different spells options in each cult also create very uneven ground for duels, especially if duel is a form of justice / law: No one would fight Humakt as that would be certain death (well, it would often be that even without magics . Then again, most people in a duel in which loser forfeits their life would probably do anything, even break the duel's rules to survive. So they would use any magics they could to increase their own survival regardless of rules.

Some rune spells would also make the duels very short: Rune Magic is cast at SR 1, and there would be strong incentive to blast the opponent with all you got as early as possible to guarantee your victory and to prevent the opponent doing the same. This could even lead to both parties dying immediately as both would releasing all their god's power at their disposal against one another.

Then how about shamans and their fetches: could they use their spirits and fetch in duel to drag the opponent to spirit world and destroy them there? How about unleashing spirits in real world on their opponent... Would that be according to dueling rules?

Then there are also magical weapons which would vary wildly in their power and function.

Allowing magic in duels could make many duels not to happen at all, as the power levels of the participants would be so different. Often the result of the duel could be easily predicted, so losing party would probably just rather take the shame and exile and whatnot instead of certain death.

On the other hand, forbidding magic in duel would probably be pointless, as most would be willing to break the rules once they are facing death, unless there are some anti-magics active in the dueling ground to prevent that.

I'm quite unfamiliar with Lunar and Praxian cultures, not to mention more distant (from Sartar) cultures, so any view points and thoughts on those would be welcome as well. How about duels across cultures (e.g. Lunar vs. Orlanthi).

Are there any canon sources which touch this subject? And do you have some thoughts about this?

[metcalph]

16 minutes ago, MMan said:

However, I wonder whether duelists are allowed to use magic in their duel?

In the Saga of Bituarian Varosh, there is a descreiption of a Humakti duel

 

Quote

Each circled a while, undoubtedly casting spells. The
swords glowed, their armor wavered, the air inside the
circle seemed to ripple, and Alain sheared away Naimless'
shield despite her parry. Naimless' sword glanced off
Alain's iron armor. Alain struck again, but was parried.
There was no return attack as Alain drove in, hoping to
take blood before Naimless' next magic took effect.
He was too slow. A small salamander stuck him
from behind before his sword thrust home. Naimless had
to dodge his falling body. A moment later the elemental
disappeared. The combat had taken less than a minute.
Despite the damage, Alain rose. I could see his
scorched flesh heal on his unarmored leg. Naimless used
healing magic to put her fingers back in place.
Alain accused Naimless of un-Humakti conduct,
working himself into a rage. Naimless now was backed
by her friends (including another Sword) since the fight
was over, and she waited calmly, then said that Humakt
could judge it. The god made no sign, so Naimless claimed
victory.

Cults of Prax p33

Alain the Singed is upset because Naimless used non-Humakti magic (the Salamander) to win the duel but even Humakt approved of it.  So if even Humakti with his geases approves of magics in duels, you can be sure that everybody else does.

[MMan]

@metcalph Thanks, that was a very good example.

This seems to have been duel to first blood. Are the duels usually first blood duels, or to death? In Sartar - Kingdom of Heroes on pg. 216 the sidebar notes "The winner of a duel will likely owe wergild to the loser’s kin; ..." which I interpreted to mean that duels are to death, although there have been some mentions that wergild should also come in play when dealing permanent damage (cutting limbs etc.).
 

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, MMan said:

However, I wonder whether duelists are allowed to use magic in their duel?

It depends on what the duelists agree to.  In my campaign, there was a ritual duel with a Yelmalion Rune Lord.  That duel explicitly forbade the use of magic.

I'm sure other duels do not as in the Humakti example noted above.  (And there would be cults like Zorak Zoran that would laugh at the idea of being bound to not use magic.)

4 hours ago, MMan said:

This seems to have been duel to first blood. Are the duels usually first blood duels, or to death?

That will also depend on what is agreed to.  I had one recently go to 'first fall'.

I'd just make it appropriate to the situation/game.

[soltakss]

5 hours ago, MMan said:

However, I wonder whether duelists are allowed to use magic in their duel?

We played that Humakti Duels could use magic, except Sever Spirit, if the participants agreed. If the participants did not specify what could or could not be used, then anything could be used. If the specified, then they could ban all non-cult magic, all offensive magic, all magic or whatever combination they wanted.

Purists might ban all magic, so that it is skill on skill.

5 hours ago, MMan said:

And do you have some thoughts about this?

For non-Humakti duels, anything goes, as long as it has been agreed by the duellists.

Shergar Sunhoof, Centaur Extraordinaire, My Yelmalian PC had a geas "Challenge all Zorak zorani on sight" and one of the other PCs was a Death lord of Zorak zoran with 200% Defense, so Shergar could not touch him in combat. he wasn;t of the mondest to challenge Derak to a game of chess, so it had to be combat. To have a chance of hitting him, he had to go Fanatical, but he could attack with two weapons and had a 4D6 damage bonus when tooled up, so Derak always hit first with a good Bludgeon, as if he didn't take me down I could probably have had a good chance of killing him. Dertak had a Troll Maul, SIX 26 or something and DEX 21, he also had an ability that he attacked on SR1. Shergar had SIZ 40 (+1 with a  magical ability), DEX 29 tooled up and used a Long spear in combat, as we banned lances in duels, so he attacked just afterwards, he also had Jake's Amulet(Diddle-diddle-dum), so he had two kicks that he could use at SR5, so our combats usually lasted for 1 SR when Derak normally crushed and took out a limb or a vital location.

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

with 200% Defense

Getting rid of Defense was the best thing RQG did.  It too often rose to absurd levels.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Getting rid of Defense was the best thing RQG did. 

RQ3 had already done so.  It was one of the natural pieces to carry forward from that version.

[Shiningbrow]

20 hours ago, MMan said:

@metcalph Thanks, that was a very good example.

This seems to have been duel to first blood. Are the duels usually first blood duels, or to death? In Sartar - Kingdom of Heroes on pg. 216 the sidebar notes "The winner of a duel will likely owe wergild to the loser’s kin; ..." which I interpreted to mean that duels are to death, although there have been some mentions that wergild should also come in play when dealing permanent damage (cutting limbs etc.).
 

I suspect most Orlanthi duels are to first blood, precisely because of the weregilds and fueds that can come from them.

Warring tribes may go that step further though.

[PhilHibbs]

On 8/8/2020 at 2:15 PM, jajagappa said:

It depends on what the duelists agree to.

I don't think that's a thing that happens. Imagine a TV series or film set in Viking culture. Two major characters are fighting a duel, and our hero is down in the dirt and almost out. He looks up to the skies and cries "ODIN!" and gets back on his feet and lays into the other guy who is taken by surprise, and the hero wins!

"Hey, you used maaaagic, that's cheeeeating!" cries the brother of the defeated guy.

How out of place would that be? It should be just as out of place in Glorantha in my opinion. Just as "I say we should agree not to pray to Odin in this duel" would be.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think that's a thing that happens. Imagine a TV series or film set in Viking culture. Two major characters are fighting a duel, and our hero is down in the dirt and almost out. He looks up to the skies and cries "ODIN!" and gets back on his feet and lays into the other guy who is taken by surprise, and the hero wins!

"Hey, you used maaaagic, that's cheeeeating!" cries the brother of the defeated guy.

How out of place would that be? It should be just as out of place in Glorantha in my opinion

As I've had a couple of duels in my games where there were agreed upon terms, it definitely happens in my Glorantha.  May vary with others.  My Yelmalions and Humakti are prone to highly ritualized (and defined) duels.  Others, not so much.

But it's also quite possible to have the duel you note, where they have agreed to forsake magic, the hero is down, and invokes Orlanth's Lightning to blast his opponent, and the hero wins.  Did the hero fight Honorably?  Not by the conditions of the duel - automatic bump down in Honor, and automatic bump up in Reputation.  Did the foe get killed, the foe's clan demands weregild, and quite possibly a feud is begun.