Pushed Skill Rolls for Runequest?

[Beoferret]

Hello all. One of the mechanics I like best from 7thed Call of Cthulhu is the concept of the "pushed roll" for skills. Basically, if a player fails a non-combat skill roll, they can appeal for a second roll after explaining what their character does to accomplish the failed task a different way. The drawbacks being that it takes extra time for a task to be accomplished and that, most importantly, a second failure brings serious consequences of some variety. Since beginning characters start off with fairly low values in many potentially useful skills, wouldn't this be a good mechanic to port over? I don't think that it gives players too much of an easy street. I think that it'd work well with Rune and Passion augments, without supplanting them, and adds a little drama to games. 

For example: Case #1: you have a low ride skill, but need to gallop away from some broo. The first ride skill roll is a failure. Your horse doesn't move, does whatever it wants, won't let you mount, rears without dumping you, or something similar. The broo are now closer, so you try the roll again in desperation and either succeed or fail a second time - leading to you getting dumped off your panicking horse's back, hurt, and /or much closer to the broo (or the horse turns and gallops towards them with your character hanging on for dear life.)

Case #2 (with augment): Your character is inspired by their devotion to Orlanth while worshipping to restore rune points. The worship skill roll fails. Needing that connection to the divine to fill their rune magic bucket, the character keeps going (maybe after adding a quick sacrifice). With success, all is good. A second failure though and the character feels a growing disconnect with the Storm God (i.e. -5% to their devotion passion), or they'll have a penalty to their next worship roll, or Orlanth is annoyed by the character pestering him and sends a spirit of retribution to perform a brief, minor corrective.  

So.... has anybody used the pushed skill roll mechanic in their Runequest games? If so, did it work? Can anyone think of any reason why it wouldn't work in Runequest? And if it could easily work and has worked as a mechanic in RQG games, could we convince Jeff and Jason to include it as an optional rule/mechanic in the Gamemaster's Guide or some other publication?

 

[Stephen L]

9 hours ago, Beoferret said:

if a player fails a non-combat skill roll

P142 of the core rules covers this:

Quote

Reattempting Ability Rolls
An adventurer failing an ability roll may still be in a situation
where they could potentially try again. The gamemaster
may permit a follow-up attempt if it is justified, but at a
–25% penalty.
If this second attempt fails, the adventurer cannot make
any further reattempts without the passage of time or change
in circumstances.

 

[David Scott]

11 hours ago, Beoferret said:

Hello all. One of the mechanics I like best from 7thed Call of Cthulhu is the concept of the "pushed roll" for skills. Basically, if a player fails a non-combat skill roll, they can appeal for a second roll after explaining what their character does to accomplish the failed task a different way. The drawbacks being that it takes extra time for a task to be accomplished and that, most importantly, a second failure brings serious consequences of some variety. Since beginning characters start off with fairly low values in many potentially useful skills, wouldn't this be a good mechanic to port over? I don't think that it gives players too much of an easy street. I think that it'd work well with Rune and Passion augments, without supplanting them, and adds a little drama to games. 

I actually use this in RQG where appropriate, usually in an MGF situation. The big difference is that the Reattempting Ability Rolls is at -25% and Pushing the Roll, gives no negative bonus, but dire consequences on failure. Most of my players play CoC as well and instinctively say "Can I push the roll?".

So on in #1, I would say you are going to break an arm falling off the horse (remember it's dire - extremely serious). This is clearly an MGF situation. I would avoid rolling for the injury - just stating that an arm drops to 0 hit points. If you start dice rolls, the GM situation just gets more complex and it's a pointless rule.

and #2, it would be a the same as a fumble, immediately  I would say–10% from the Rune and is overcome by psychic turmoil. I'd likely pick "Until sunset, sunrise, or similar length of time, During this time, the adventurer cannot use that Rune at all." 

I wouldn't allow Push in example #2, as it's not an MGF situation. I would use the -25%, The dire consequences of push aren't warranted here.

I would not water down the dire consequences, as this is the important part of push. 

I don't think this needs adding to RQG, it's a good port from CoC if your players already understand it (which is why we use it). 

[Mugen]

It's interesting that the RQG mechanism is only intended to be used with characteristic rolls, and not skills. Is it possible to push characteristic rolls in CoC, or is it only for skills?

As for myself, I think I'd let players use the Reattempting rule proposed here for skills too.

[David Scott]

28 minutes ago, Mugen said:

It's interesting that the RQG mechanism is only intended to be used with characteristic rolls, and not skills.

It's about Ability Rolls, the section is called Ability use. Skills and Characteristics rolls both be used for Ability rolls. Characteristic Rolls and Skill Base chance are both part of the Ability use subsection. as is Reattempting Ability Rolls. So Characteristic Rolls and Skill rolls can both use Reattempting Ability Rolls. See page 141.

28 minutes ago, Mugen said:

Is it possible to push characteristic rolls in CoC, or is it only for skills?

CoC says "The term "skill roll" is used regardless of whether a skill or a characteristic is used."

 

[soltakss]

We tried Pushed Rolls, but my Players didn't like them. They much preferred using Hero points to reroll.

Edited October 6, 2020 by soltakss

[Beoferret]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

It's about Ability Rolls, the section is called Ability use. Skills and Characteristics rolls both be used for Ability rolls. Characteristic Rolls and Skill Base chance are both part of the Ability use subsection. as is Reattempting Ability Rolls. So Characteristic Rolls and Skill rolls can both use Reattempting Ability Rolls. See page 141.

CoC says "The term "skill roll" is used regardless of whether a skill or a characteristic is used."

 

This honestly tripped me up a little. So thanks to you and Stephen L for pointing it back out to me. When I read about reattempting ability rolls, I took that to mean only characteristic checks. Still, I'd argue that the -25% to a second roll only makes second attempts a reasonable option for characters that already have decent to high levels of skill in the first place. My main concern is for starting and low-power characters who might sometimes flounder when they need to use a basic skill they don't have much ability in.

[Kloster]

17 hours ago, soltakss said:

We tried Pushed Rolls, but my Players didn't like them. They much preferred using Hero points to reroll.

I'm using JB007's rules for hero points:

Gained on a Quality 1 (=critical) roll (unmodified), and 1 HP spent can change the quality of a result by 1 <Fumble><Fail><Success><Special><Critical>

[Lordabdul]

On 10/6/2020 at 2:28 AM, David Scott said:

I don't think this needs adding to RQG, it's a good port from CoC if your players already understand it (which is why we use it).

I'm a big CoC player (and so are most of my players) and I love that rule (along with many of the 7th edition's changes), but I don't even think I would port it to RQG personally. It works well in a horror game because a horror game is all about dire consequences... so it's a nice case of mechanics reinforcing the setting's themes.

In RQG I feel like the point is less about desperate people who take risks and face consequences, and more about people who believe in a cause, defend their community, fight for what they think is right. So the mechanics are supposed to encourage players to take on (and increase) their Passions and Runes. Even with a poor skill score, it's easy to get in the ballpark of 50% (at least) with an Augment. If the character fails, then she wasn't passionate enough about what she was doing. She'll have to prove herself more. The mechanics for increasing/decreasing Passions are quite underrated IMHO and would merit a bit more spotlight (I'm hoping to see some additional advice in the GM book).

Also, RQG characters have a LOT more opportunities to increase their skills and learn new ones, compared to CoC characters  

Edited October 8, 2020 by lordabdul