D100 multiverse

[RogerDee]

Has anyone tried combining all the D100 universes into a multiverse complete with lore?

Such that things like CoC, Mythras, Aquelarre etc could be incorporated?

Discuss how you would accomplish this.

 

[Bilharzia]

CoC and Mythras aren't settings, they're rule systems which have various settings written for them. I can see a game jumping across different settings (Luther Arkwright is designed for this) but mixing settings and rules together is probably a waste of time outside of a one-off game or short campaign. There was a White Dwarf scenario called "Ancient & Modern" which used CoC rules and characters for the modern part of the scenario, then switched to AD&D for the millions of years in the past, ancient world fantastical setting, but I don't know much else that does that. There are a number of CoC scenarios or campaigns that jump around time-hopping but they don't switch rules.

[RogerDee]

1 hour ago, Bilharzia said:

CoC and Mythras aren't settings, they're rule systems which have various settings written for them.

Each rule system has games that carry a default cosmology in many instances, whether CoC (Invictus, Dark Ages, Japan, etc), Classic Fantasy, or Runequest, Elric, so that is not quite true.

So how do you combine the different cosmologies in each setting?

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by RogerDee

[hix]

Rifts does it well, portals to the cowboy universe, alien planets, fantasy realms appear in all of the above, linking the worlds to each other.

[Atgxtg]

On 11/28/2020 at 9:04 AM, RogerDee said:

Has anyone tried combining all the D100 universes into a multiverse complete with lore?

I've mixed some of the settings at times. Ususally in Strombringer/Eternal Champion Games. I've also worked on using BRP to handle Roger Zelazny's Amber setting, which is also something of a multiverse

On 11/28/2020 at 9:04 AM, RogerDee said:

Discuss how you would accomplish this.

Well, first off I had to decide what the underlying metaverse was like. For instance if I was running Stormbringer then everything would be part of Moorcock's multiverse, and all the various settings would have to work within that paradigm. If running Amber then all these settings would be shadows that could be reached, and manipulated to some extent by Amberites. Generally speaking it's easier to use one ruleset and adapt the settings to that ruleset (i.e if you use random armor and general hit points you should probably do so in every setting/universe), but changing some rules to suit a given setting can help to differenate the settings nicely, but it's tricky.

IMO it's important to have some sort of overview as to how the various universes interact in order to adjudicate what happens when unstoppable object from Universe A runs into immovable object from universe B. Stuff like can Strombringer actually kill Cthulhu or not. Most such dilemmas tend to come down to GM preferences between settings. In most such situations either answer is equally good, provided they follow some sort of campaign logic that fits in with the chosen "master setting", and is internally consistent. For instance, if running a Eternal Champion based campaign, then all the settings must conform to the rules of Mookcock's multiverse.

 

[g33k]

On 11/28/2020 at 7:07 AM, RogerDee said:

...

So how do you combine the different cosmologies in each setting?

Frankly, I don't (combine cosmologies).

I used to enjoy kitchen-sink settings, but increasingly find that so many different elements TAKE AWAY from one another's awesome, rather than adding their awesomes together.

For example, the cosmology/backstory of RQ doesn't really fit with the pseudo-science cosmology/backstory of CoC.  One *COULD* just equate Cthulhu&Co with RQ "Chaos" and Done... but Cthulhu's cosmology has millions-of-years-ago events & races &c that explicitly differ from the known history of Glorantha with its pre-Time events and "dawn of Time" singularity.  Similarly, the undersea elements of the Mythos (q.v. "Deep Ones") differ from those of Glorantha (Triolini, Magasta, &c).  They just don't FIT, imho... except with a shoehorn that lessens both of them.

YMMobviouslyV !

===

Lets look *just* at Mythras, now...  The core rulebook is very toolkit-y, with a loosely-implied bronze-age-ish setting just background'ing the exemplar-characters, game-mechanics example-of-play's, and the framing fiction.  Meeros &c is built-out in one world TDM offers, and you COULD pastiche that with other things...

But Classic Fantasy is a whole DIFFERENT thing, specifically emulating AD&D 1e/2e, and though (for (c) reasons, I presume) doesn't use ForgottenRealms or Greyhawk or such, fits those sorts of worlds/cosmologies (which are different than Meeros' Bronze Age vibe).  Then there's TDM's Mythic Earth line, both the "very-historical +fantasy" of Mythic Britain and Mythic Rome (explicitly using folkloric/historic mythologies & religions, so... those cosmologies), and the much-more-fantastical Mythic Constantinople, and the "ItalianCityState-with-Serial-Numbers-Filed-Off" of Fioracitta (which probably isn't even "Mythic Earth" but totally could be an Italian city); coming soon are Mythic Greece, Mythic Mesopotamia, & Mythic Polynesia -- each with their own mythology/cosmology, derived from each culture; combining all those just winds up bland, IMO.  After the Vampire Wars is, AFAIK, explicitly modern-esque / near-future / Alt-History Urban Fantasy, but Worlds United is pulp retro-future alt-history with a DIFFERENT history, and licensee Frostbyte's Odd Soot (still Mythras) is a different retro-future with yet another alt-history (and cosmology, and cosmological threat).  TDM also has Luther Arkwright (a licensed IP) with its own multi-universe cosmology, & cosmic menace; and Lyonesse (an IP licensed from the Jack Vance estate) ...

Chaosium's own native BRP has (had) its own multiverse-cosmology, of course, with Moorcock's Eternal Champion line (Elric, Hawkmoon, et al), and the forces of Law and Chaos defining the multiversal struggle.

===

I like chocolate cake, and I like garlic chicken... but why would I put them both in a blender and expect the resulting gooey mess to be any good at all?

YMMV.

[Ian Absentia]

18 hours ago, g33k said:

I like chocolate cake, and I like garlic chicken... but why would I put them both in a blender and expect the resulting gooey mess to be any good at all?

And yet you masticate them one after another and blend them in your stomach, and they sustain you to be the champion that you are.  I reject your analogy and challenge you to drink that brown-grey goo, and go forth and conquer.

Also, I challenge you to watch a season or two of Doctor Who -- any era -- and get back to me.  Lots of delicious brown-grey, garlic-chocolate goo to be had there.

!i!

Edited December 2, 2020 by Ian Absentia
Am I forgetting my emojis again? ​​😜​

[HierophantX]

I think it more depends on what having a "multiverse" will narratively accomplish in your setting. Do you want to have have a multiverse so that Veritech Hovertanks can slug it out with Coalition bots in the swampy, gator-y ruins of Gulf Coast Rifts America? or because one of your players wants to be something from one setting in another setting? What do YOU as GM want to be able to do with this as a setting. Once that's clear there are several paths to follow:

- Have an "in-verse" explanation that the players are all a part of and that they know about cosmologically

- Don't explain shit. This thing happened, so now they have to adapt and overcome

- It's not a PhD dissertation you have to defend, or a peer-reviewed journal. Unless you are writing a multiverse situation for publication and you need it to stand actual scrutiny beyond your crew, who cares? It only needs to work for your story and if it needs to contradict itself see below

- Secret History of the World - maybe there's an underlying cosmology and lots of people think they know what it is and maybe some of them are partly right or maybe not. Sure that guy's magic works but as far as why his magic works? Maybe he thinks it's due to his mastery of Pvaric disciplines and how he thinks the universe works. Maybe there are sources of power, maybe there are extra-dimensional beings that you can contact and gain power from? But what those things are and how they really work could be completely subjective, contradictory and incompatible across perspectives, and that's totally fine. And in any case those weird sites and stone structures that turn out to be portals to other worlds are the coaxial connections to some interdimensional beings' virtual entertainment (porn) system powered by the souls of the dead of those worlds and all the planar travel is just a byproduct. 

- And Glorantha is just a simulation anyway, whether the beings who run it are Mi-Go or whatever Dragonnewts actually are... meh.

[RogerDee]

On 12/15/2020 at 8:48 AM, HierophantX said:

- It's not a PhD dissertation you have to defend, or a peer-reviewed journal. Unless you are writing a multiverse situation for publication and you need it to stand actual scrutiny beyond your crew, who cares? It only needs to work for your story and if it needs to contradict itself see below

See I am the exact opposite here tbh, and I make sure that I can run Runequest, CoC or whatever, all together if need be and I tend to plan how it all works.But then I can be a bit OCD on this.

Champions Mystic World (and a few other rpg's) really helped me put all the together, but YMMV.

Edited December 17, 2020 by RogerDee

[Warframe44]

On 11/28/2020 at 9:04 AM, RogerDee said:

Has anyone tried combining all the D100 universes into a multiverse complete with lore?

Such that things like CoC, Mythras, Aquelarre etc could be incorporated?

Discuss how you would accomplish this.

 

Because they're all BRP based, the settings and modules could be used as-is, with small conversions at the table.

What occurs to me is having a CoC Great Old One level event snap the barriers between the multiverse, and the Heroes (gathered from multiple planes of existence) are tasked with saving... well, everything

[Warframe44]

On 12/1/2020 at 12:48 PM, hix said:

Rifts does it well, portals to the cowboy universe, alien planets, fantasy realms appear in all of the above, linking the worlds to each other.

Rifts does it well... 😬

I've always thought Rifts is the National Enquirer version of BRP

[Warframe44]

On 12/1/2020 at 7:44 PM, g33k said:

For example, the cosmology/backstory of RQ doesn't really fit with the pseudo-science cosmology/backstory of CoC.  One *COULD* just equate Cthulhu&Co with RQ "Chaos" and Done... but Cthulhu's cosmology has millions-of-years-ago events & races &c that explicitly differ from the known history of Glorantha with its pre-Time events and "dawn of Time" singularity.  Similarly, the undersea elements of the Mythos (q.v. "Deep Ones") differ from those of Glorantha (Triolini, Magasta, &c).  They just don't FIT, imho... except with a shoehorn that lessens both of them

I don't see this as a barrier. I think players familiar with RQ could invest in the idea that Chaos (I'm unfamiliar with RQ cosmology) and a Great Old One are one and the same, could have a real epiphany. There's a ton of room for discovery, role playing, and adventure in discovering that one fact alone. Having RQ characters adapt to other worlds would be really neat to GM.

[RogerDee]

11 hours ago, Warframe44 said:

Because they're all BRP based, the settings and modules could be used as-is, with small conversions at the table.

What occurs to me is having a CoC Great Old One level event snap the barriers between the multiverse, and the Heroes (gathered from multiple planes of existence) are tasked with saving... well, everything

You could have something like the below which I pinched off the Marvel wikia.

Universes: They can be neatly divided up into those that follow the physics of Earth-like worlds with similar makeup, physical properties, and laws of physics. Then there are those that are completely alien and foreign possessing differing physical properties and laws of physics; and finally dimensions that are governed by magic.

So you could literally have one universe run by the Christian god (Aquelarre), and in another universe it is full of Great Old Ones.

Then maybe have some kind of higher dimension full of beings like the Q Continuum which have some kind of affiliation to either Order or Chaos? Perhaps even have some kind of Outsiders, which are the Outer gods?

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by RogerDee

[g33k]

On 12/17/2020 at 2:51 PM, Warframe44 said:

I don't see this as a barrier. I think players familiar with RQ could invest in the idea that Chaos (I'm unfamiliar with RQ cosmology) and a Great Old One are one and the same, could have a real epiphany. There's a ton of room for discovery, role playing, and adventure in discovering that one fact alone. Having RQ characters adapt to other worlds would be really neat to GM.

Runequest (specifically -- the world of "Glorantha," which isn't limited to RQ (there are other rule-sets, both official (HeroQuest has a Glorantha book, and many supplements; 13th Age has a Glorantha book, too) and unofficial for the world; these other rules aren't related to BRP/RQ rules)) has a robust and complex mythology, of a scope and scale that is similarly broad & deep as the Cthulhu Mythos.

And at the higher scales of power, PC-level heroes can and do quest through time and space, and participate alongside their gods in mythic events from before Time itself had the sorts of linearity that it has in the "modern" (default beginning play) era; the "Dawn" was literally the first sunrise, about 1600 years previously, after a Great Darkness; and before which there was an eternal Sun centered high above the flat world, never setting nor rising.  ALL of this is a matter of history, as much as myth, because PC-scale characters can visit these times and places... the Cosmic Court ruled by the sun-god; the Great Darkness (after Storm slew the Sun); the Dawn of Time, when the resurrected Sun rose into the sky (rose, for the first time ever!); etc etc etc.  Most of Cthulhu's mythos simply has no place to fit.  The ancient myths of Glorantha simply are not lost to the mists of time.  They are well-known, clearly documented, revisited -- and personally experienced -- on a regular basis.  This is profoundly different from the Cosmic Horror and hidden ancient past of the Mythos.

Chaos (in the world of Glorantha) does have some Mythos-esque aspects, and borrowing from either game to the other is very easy indeed (and works very well, I think!).

But the full-on blending of cosmologies works... less well.
 

Obviously, it can be forced, can be MADE to fit.  I simply find both cosmologies to be weaker for the effort; but ymmv.

Edited December 19, 2020 by g33k

[Ian Absentia]

50 minutes ago, g33k said:

Obviously, it can be forced, can be MADE to fit.  I simply find both cosmologies to be weaker for the effort; but ymmv.

Whew.  For a moment there, I thought you were going to cut him some slack.  But orthodoxy takes the day!

!i!

[hix]

1 hour ago, Ian Absentia said:

orthodoxy takes the day!

Saucy, but he has a point. The Mythos as it was formed was a collaboration between the various writers of Weird Tales et al. Killing each other off in their stories, expanding and playing off of each other the same way a roleplaying group does. A genre is a set of conventions, mashing them up can be as much fun as playing them straight. The Cthulhu Invictus line should have some cool ideas for stuff to do in a Classical setting.

[RogerDee]

9 hours ago, g33k said:

Obviously, it can be forced, can be MADE to fit.  I simply find both cosmologies to be weaker for the effort; but ymmv.

If you have one set of timelines running on magic, and others running through science, it is not being MADE to fit at all.

Then just have higher planes residing over both of them (like in Elric). In fact this idea was in Champions: Mystic World, M&M, Age: Threefold. It is a very easy way to solve the problem.

8 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

But orthodoxy takes the day!

And that is kind of a problem....as it is utterly lacking in imagination

Edited December 19, 2020 by RogerDee

[Guest Vile Traveller]

I played in an interesting BRP multiverse campaign in the '80s. It was inspired by re-runs of The Time Tunnel from 1966, and at first was all simple historical, non-fantasy period adventures. But fantasy and science fiction soon made its way into the game, including one of my last-ever forays into Glorantha and various fictional settings. I suspect it was because the referee was a big Luther Arkwright and Jerry Cornelius fan.

The whole point of BRP is that it can run everything. Go for it.

[RogerDee]

1 hour ago, Vile Traveller said:

I played in an interesting BRP multiverse campaign in the '80s. It was inspired by re-runs of The Time Tunnel from 1966, and at first was all simple historical, non-fantasy period adventures. But fantasy and science fiction soon made its way into the game, including one of my last-ever forays into Glorantha and various fictional settings. I suspect it was because the referee was a big Luther Arkwright and Jerry Cornelius fan.

The whole point of BRP is that it can run everything. Go for it.

Awesome, that sounds like a hoot.

[Warframe44]

On 12/18/2020 at 9:39 PM, Ian Absentia said:

Whew.  For a moment there, I thought you were going to cut him some slack.  But orthodoxy takes the day!

!i!

I don't need slack.

Strange, in my opinion, to rely on orthodoxy in a realm of pure imagination. And that's what RD is proposing, Imaginative play & world building. If you don't like a thread, simply move on. 

[Ian Absentia]

1 hour ago, Warframe44 said:

I don't need slack.

Dang, I'm not using my emojis again.  I was agreeing with you, actually.  Or at least disagreeing with the orthodoxy of informing you that your idea is fundamentally flawed while graciously allowing that maybe you enjoy that sort of thing.  You know, "YMMV" and all that.

Play on!

!i!

Edited December 20, 2020 by Ian Absentia

[Warframe44]

On 12/18/2020 at 8:47 PM, g33k said:

Obviously, it can be forced, can be MADE to fit.  I simply find both cosmologies to be weaker for the effort; but ymmv.

That may well be. However entertainment is chock full of rewarding content that doesn't cater to expectations. It's challenging no doubt, but as GMs and designers we are also story tellers. Success or failure should depend on the quality of the story we tell, our ability to subvert and redirect expectations. Done properly it can be incredibly rewarding. We should feel empowered to take chances, and not be limited by orthodoxy.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Warframe44

[Atgxtg]

On 12/18/2020 at 8:47 PM, g33k said:

Obviously, it can be forced, can be MADE to fit.  I simply find both cosmologies to be weaker for the effort; but ymmv.

That's pretty much the perennial pitfall of crossovers. It is very hard to really do justice to both. Typically at least one setting/group of characters get's lessened by the crossover- especially if they are from different genres or work at different power levels, or worse both contain some sort of "higher power" that is supposed to make them supreme, leading to a unstoppable force vs. Immovable object situation. It very hard to handle that while keeping fans of both setting happy. 

[RogerDee]

On 12/21/2020 at 7:38 PM, Atgxtg said:

That's pretty much the perennial pitfall of crossovers. It is very hard to really do justice to both. Typically at least one setting/group of characters get's lessened by the crossover- especially if they are from different genres or work at different power levels, or worse both contain some sort of "higher power" that is supposed to make them supreme, leading to a unstoppable force vs. Immovable object situation. It very hard to handle that while keeping fans of both setting happy. 

This underlies some of the importance of communication to be honest.

Or the great idea above is having one as a simultion.

Have them as different universes, working under different laws.

Perhaps Runequest is part of the Realm of Dreams, connected to the Dreamlands? Grand Grimoire includes such an idea.

The main thing is indulge your creativity, ensure everyone has fun!

Edited December 23, 2020 by RogerDee

[HierophantX]

And in any event, all of you owe me 5$ for using the word "slack"

 

Thou Art Bob.