The return of the Waertagi

[davecake]

We know the Waertagi return, but do we have more details? My understanding is it can be any time after the rising of the Boat Planet in 1624, but does it start immediately and are they back on the seas by 1625? I gather the return in the far north and far south, so where do they first make contact and when? Sog City? Elamle? Arolanit? Kralorela? When do the make contact with Kethaela/Nochet? 

I assume there will be several dragon ships quite happy to be able to use dry dock facilities for the first time in several centuries, and it will be a notable part of the Fronela timeline. But it’s also very interesting to know when they make contact with Nochet, and how their relationships develop with the Ingareens, and the Choralinthor Ludoch. They might resent the Ingareens as God Learner allies. I know the Waertagi, surprisingly, interbreed with the Piscoi mermen but not the Cetoi like the Ludoch, and they are usually hostile (not least because the Piscoi think cetaceans are food), but the history of the Holy Country says the Triolini in the first age end up allied with the Waertagi rather subjects of the Only Old One (though they are allies with the OOO, in return for trading ports etc). Jeff’s recent posts more or less repeat this - and it would be a big change to the Kethaela politics if this happened again, which seems plausible now Belintar is not there to unify the Holy Country. And of course sea trade is a huge economic factor in Esroliain particular. 

Sandy said that while they might be expected to be seeking vengeance on Zzabur for the Closing, that no, they are trying to revive the alliance with the Brithini. Anyone know if that is still the basic story? 

[Snugz]

The Guide indicates they're coming back to comb the fog for Brithos, then they take a Brithini army to help the Seshnelans defeat the Quinpolic League once and for all (in 1624 IIRC so I think this happens soon after the Boat Planet!); so then they have dominance over the Western seas. Meanwhile the Closing has "ended" and people gradually realize this so I imagine the Waertagi are struggling to suppress contenders for sea dominance, especially vs. the Wolf Pirates (Guide also hints at this; that it's a Waertagi vs. Dormali fight and WPs are in the latter camp). I'd expect the WPs to oppose the Waertagi in the Nochet area since they're around there at that time, having completed the Circumnavigation and Harrek ready to settle scores w/Lunars in that region...

I bet first contact is at Brithos. They come sailing back over the edge of the world and that's closest on the western side.

[soltakss]

In my Glorantha,the Dragonship Rafts return, sailing in from Sshorg's Ocean some time after the Boat Planet returns.

Individual Dragonships return almost as soon as the Boat Planet rises, as they follow it up from Hell, so they sail up from Hell themselves. 

Again, in my Glorantha, at least one Dragonship follows the Boat Planet to the Sky and falls through Skyfall Lake, navigating down the Creek-Stream-River to the seas.

Although individual Dragonships make contact with each dock, once they have made contact all Dragonships can dock there. 

[davecake]

The Guide seems to only have explicit information about their return in starting  in Seshnela, but it seems of much wider importance 

“The Waertagi fleets are fated to return in strength, combing the Sea of Fog to find the remnants of Brithos. Many volunteer to aid them and, when successful, are betrayed and sacrificed in bloody rites. The Waertagi ally with the Brithini and they ferry a Brithini army to Arolanit. The Waertagi aid King Guilmarn in the downfall of Nolos and Pasos. They then declare a crusade against the cult of Dormal and begin wiping the sea clean of opposing ships. The Wolf Pirates, supported by Harrek the Berserk, are their main initial opposition. “

This sounds like it will bring war to the Wolf pirates, but it’s not quite clear when and how - and wiping out the cult of Dormal (and by implication all non-Waertagi shipping) certainly sounds serious! So what time frame sounds like an important question! 
note that the Guide time frame is 1621, I think some of this has already happened by 1625, including at least the beginnings of the downfall of Nolos and Pasos.

 

[davecake]

17 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Individual Dragonships return almost as soon as the Boat Planet rises, as they follow it up from Hell, so they sail up from Hell themselves. 

Yeah, that seems to be clear if they are actively ferrying Brithini about later in 1624.

18 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Again, in my Glorantha, at least one Dragonship follows the Boat Planet to the Sky and falls through Skyfall Lake, navigating down the Creek-Stream-River to the seas.

I just want to boggle at the implied ‘dragonship falls from the sky’ here! That sounds impressive for the dragonship to even survive with breaking in to pieces, and what is it going to do from there? It won’t be able to leave the lake. 

[soltakss]

47 minutes ago, davecake said:

I just want to boggle at the implied ‘dragonship falls from the sky’ here!

Maybe the Adventurers saw it, or see it and follow it.

48 minutes ago, davecake said:

That sounds impressive for the dragonship to even survive with breaking in to pieces, and what is it going to do from there?

It is a ship made from a living sea-dragon, sure it will take damage but the Waertagi Sorcerers will have put some protective magic on it to help it survive.

48 minutes ago, davecake said:

It won’t be able to leave the lake. 

Maybe, maybe not.

• The Waertagi could summon a huge or immense undine and just flow over the side
• The lake is the source of pone of the Creek/Stream/River, can't remember which, so it could sail away on that
• Imagine a Dragonship sprouting legs and just walking away
• The Waertagi could drag the Dragonship away from the lake
• Cragspider might not want a Waertagi Dragonship on her lake and might persuade it to leave
• The Adventurers could help it to leave

 

[soltakss]

57 minutes ago, davecake said:

This sounds like it will bring war to the Wolf pirates, but it’s not quite clear when and how - and wiping out the cult of Dormal (and by implication all non-Waertagi shipping) certainly sounds serious!

Dormal is rendered largely irrelevant by the rising of the Boat Planet, for the Seas are Open. Why do you need a cult with Open Seas if you no longer need Open Seas?

Non-Waertagi shipping doesn't need Dormal any more and will get along fine.

Waertagi could accept Dormal as a saint and can get access to his magic that way, or they could worship him in the same way they worship sea deities.

[Joerg]

Spoiler warning...

 

The prophecy in the Guide is fairly clear by which time the Waertagi aid King Guilmarn in conquering the Quinpolic League - by 1623, Guilmarn has taken possession of the place, and in 1623 Harrek arrives from Jrustela, and conflict arises again. Argrath is involved in this, and so is his Agimori companion Hunralki from Jolar, mentioned in Argrath Saga, who may or may not emerge as the new leader of the Pithdarans. The Wolf Pirates plunder Noloswal, and Argrath comes away from there with "the Red Gold Knife".

The Guide states that the Waertagi are countered by the Wolf Pirates. While Guilmarn apparently succeeds in securing Nolos and Pasos after the Wolf Pirates leave, we don't learn whether the Waertagi remain or not. There is no information whether refugee ships leave the Quinpolic League, possibly bound for Kethaela or Maniria, or for Jrustela, or Loskalm.

Aamor - the exiled heir of Dangim - apparently was involved in the Waertagi finding Old Brithos, and would be among those betrayed by the Waertagi (if not the principal victim of that betrayal).

 

There is some evidence for a Waertagi presence in Sog City later. The Grazer king Karndaro the Leaper, successor of Jandetin (who is instrumental in helping Argrath marry the FHQ prior to the Tarsh conquest) meets a Waertagi admiral there.

 

The dates in the Seshnela timeline place the return of the underworld Waertagi before the raising of the Boat Planet in 1624, possibly making their return a prerequisite rather than a consequence.

 

That "Aftal and the Waertagi" fragment which showed up in Missing Lands told us about Waertagi hold-overs in city-ships lashed together to form artificial islands unaffected by the Closing (as long as they stay immobilized). The brown Dormal men led to them by a Deri who bring destruction to Benel-Kayum may have been Vadeli.

 

 

[davecake]

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

The Waertagi could summon a huge or immense undine and just flow over the side

That is effectively saying 'the city sized ship can just summon an undine and float it over land'. I mean, not impossible, but seems something an order of magnitude or more above previous Waertagi magical capability. 

 

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

The lake is the source of pone of the Creek/Stream/River, can't remember which, so it could sail away on that

Yes, but the Creek/Stream river at that point is navigable by coracles maybe. Not floating cities. 

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

Imagine a Dragonship sprouting legs and just walking away

Again, not something Waertagi dragonships (which are sea dragons) are known to do usually, and Waertagi able to take their cities across land would raise a LARGE number of questions. Including why they waited to do until after the Closing was over, and didn't just walk their way across land and spend the Cosing in inland lakes. 

 

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

The Waertagi could drag the Dragonship away from the lake

Again, if they could do it, why wait until now, the point at which this so far unknown capacity was no longer necessary?

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

Cragspider might not want a Waertagi Dragonship on her lake and might persuade it to leave

Yes, true, but she would more likely deal with it by sinking it, I would expect. 

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

The Adventurers could help it to leave

Indeed, but that is just changing the who, rather than answering the much more difficult question of how. 

I'd think it more likely that we end up with the Waertagi ending up having to leave their ship there (possibly sinking it), and we end up with a situation like Castle Blue, blue people and their monsters living in their magical citadel in/under the lake. 

 

[davecake]

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

Dormal is rendered largely irrelevant by the rising of the Boat Planet, for the Seas are Open. Why do you need a cult with Open Seas if you no longer need Open Seas?

Yes. And the Dormal cult are just now realising they are no longer necessary, and if the cult is to continue to exist they need to find another reason to be - like being the focus of resistance to the Waertagi desire to contol the seas, for example. 

It may also be possible that the Open Seas ritual still provides some protection against hostile Water magic, such as that used by the Waertagi. 

 

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

Non-Waertagi shipping doesn't need Dormal any more and will get along fine.

Well, unless the Waertagi do want to wipe out all non-Waertagi shipping (or at least, all that doesn't make an arrangement with the Waertagi). It's hard to tell - all shipping is Dormal or Waertagi in 1624-1625 or so. 

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

Waertagi could accept Dormal as a saint and can get access to his magic that way, or they could worship him in the same way they worship sea deities.

I think rather the opposite is implied by 'crusade against the cult of Dormal'. Without the Closing, Dormal is just an upstart, spreading Waertagi derived magic secrets. 

 

[davecake]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The prophecy in the Guide is fairly clear by which time the Waertagi aid King Guilmarn in conquering the Quinpolic League - by 1623, Guilmarn has taken possession of the place, and in 1623 Harrek arrives from Jrustela, and conflict arises again.

Which seems a bit odd, as that implies the Waertagi return before the Boat Planet and the lifting of the Closing, which would change the previously understood chain of causality - the return of the Boat Planet and end of the Closing would have to be because the Waertagi had returned and re-opened contact with Brithos, rather than the other way around as I previously thought.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The dates in the Seshnela timeline place the return of the underworld Waertagi before the raising of the Boat Planet in 1624, possibly making their return a prerequisite rather than a consequence.

Exactly. 

 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Argrath is involved in this, and so is his Agimori companion Hunralki from Jolar, mentioned in Argrath Saga, who may or may not emerge as the new leader of the Pithdarans. The Wolf Pirates plunder Noloswal, and Argrath comes away from there with "the Red Gold Knife".

That does all sound pretty reasonable that these events are linked to the return of the Waertagi. 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Guide states that the Waertagi are countered by the Wolf Pirates. While Guilmarn apparently succeeds in securing Nolos and Pasos after the Wolf Pirates ly ve, we don't learn whether the Waertagi remain or not.

I don't think the Waertagi have any particular interest in Nolos and Pasos, beyond aiding their allies and destroying rivals for control of the seas. The Waertagi may or may not remain around Nolos and Pasos (which have no dragonship faciliities), but probably do continue to visit Arolanit, Brithos, and presumably Sog, at least. Whether or not they do continue further East along the coast is a good one - they might not, at least for a while, if Wolf Pirate opposition is enough to give them pause. 

 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Aamor - the exiled heir of Dangim - apparently was involved in the Waertagi finding Old Brithos, and would be among those betrayed by the Waertagi (if not the principal victim of that betrayal).

Exactly who he is betrayed by and when is unclear, but it does seem a likely outcome - certainly Guilmarn is unlikely to want a deal with sees him return to power. 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is some evidence for a Waertagi presence in Sog City later. The Grazer king Karndaro the Leaper, successor of Jandetin (who is instrumental in helping Argrath marry the FHQ prior to the Tarsh conquest) meets a Waertagi admiral there.

And the Sog Waertagi and Brithini descended citizenry certainly seem keep to see the Waertagi using the Sog drydock again, which  may be the only such facility in Genertela. 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

That "Aftal and the Waertagi" fragment which showed up in Missing Lands told us about Waertagi hold-overs in city-ships lashed together to form artificial islands unaffected by the Closing (as long as they stay immobilized). The brown Dormal men led to them by a Deri who bring destruction to Benel-Kayum may have been Vadeli.

Yes, though it seems that this probably occurs earlier, before the rising of the Boat Planet, but after Dormals voyages and the Vadeli gaining access to the Open Seas ritiual. 

An interesting question is whether such Waertagi surface remnants can use their Deri slaves to communicate with the ships in the Underworld. And if the Waertagi do return before the Boat planet returns, what is it that allows them return to the surface now?

[Joerg]

37 minutes ago, davecake said:

Which seems a bit odd, as that implies the Waertagi return before the Boat Planet and the lifting of the Closing, which would change the previously understood chain of causality - the return of the Boat Planet and end of the Closing would have to be because the Waertagi had returned and re-opened contact with Brithos, rather than the other way around as I previously thought.

Where do the Waertagi emerge from Hell? Passing through the Gates of Dawn seems to be impractical for a fleet of city-ships, so they will likely ride the upwelling current of the doughnut-shaped whirlpool and emerge somewhere on Sramak's Ocean. The Skyriver port described in The Eleven Lights quest is a possible first waystation, even if they refrain from sailing up the Sky River and plummeting down into Skyfall Lake.

They might shanghai someone who is able to perform the Opening Ritual, or their sorcerers may learn the spell as described in the rules, upon contact there.

37 minutes ago, davecake said:

I don't think the Waertagi have any particular interest in Nolos and Pasos, beyond aiding their allies and destroying rivals for control of the seas. The Waertagi may or may not remain around Nolos and Pasos (which have no dragonship faciliities), but probably do continue to visit Arolanit, Brithos, and presumably Sog, at least. Whether or not they do continue further East along the coast is a good one - they might not, at least for a while, if Wolf Pirate opposition is enough to give them pause. 

According to the text in the Guide, they have already ferried over a Brithini army from Brithos to Arolanit when they join Guilmarn in his war on the Quinpolic League, but yes, Sog as their base of operation sounds likely. Or Brithos - we don't know whether Brithos has a drydock. Chances are that they do, maybe in Old Trade.

 

37 minutes ago, davecake said:

And the Sog Waertagi and Brithini descended citizenry certainly seem keep to see the Waertagi using the Sog drydock again, which  may be the only such facility in Genertela. 

In the end, getting access to their kin may give them renewed access to Sea Dragons, and the material to construct a fleet for themselves.

But then, a good number of the Sog City Brithini may be blue-skinned Janubian River sailors rather than green-skinned high seas Waertagi.

 

37 minutes ago, davecake said:

Yes, though it seems that this probably occurs earlier, before the rising of the Boat Planet, but after Dormals voyages and the Vadeli gaining access to the Open Seas ritiual. 

Yes . I would place that story even before the Vadeli conquest of Umathela and Fonrit.

37 minutes ago, davecake said:

An interesting question is whether such Waertagi surface remnants can use their Deri slaves to communicate with the ships in the Underworld. And if the Waertagi do return before the Boat planet returns, what is it that allows them return to the surface now?

The Aftal story made it quite clear that trusting the Deri to that extent was fatal.

The Windstop may have been the trigger. It is a world-wide effect which may even have touched on the seas of the Underworld.

[davecake]

19 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Where do the Waertagi emerge from Hell? Passing through the Gates of Dawn seems to be impractical for a fleet of city-ships, so they will likely ride the upwelling current of the doughnut-shaped whirlpool and emerge somewhere on Sramak's Ocean.

Them appearing first in the far North seems to fit. 

21 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Skyriver port described in The Eleven Lights quest is a possible first waystation

To get from the Underworld to the surface, going to the Sky seems a long way out of your way. 

Some Waertagi are part of the Boat Planet heroquest, but it seems more a few heroquesters rather than an entire dragonship or more. 

24 minutes ago, Joerg said:

But then, a good number of the Sog City Brithini may be blue-skinned Janubian River sailors rather than green-skinned high seas Waertagi.

The Sog City Waertagi (quite a separate, though allied, bunch to the Sog City Brithini) are consistently referred to as green skinned. But in any case I'm not convinced the skin/tribal distinction is as different as all that - they've been living together and intermarrying for centuries. 

27 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Aftal story made it quite clear that trusting the Deri to that extent was fatal.

And also that the Waertagi did so, to their regret. The Deri, like the most effective traitors, put on an effective show of loyalty and usefulness before finding the most effective opportunity for betrayal. 

Still seems a bit of a reach, though there could be something about the power Brastalos or something. 

30 minutes ago, Joerg said:

They might shanghai someone who is able to perform the Opening Ritual, or their sorcerers may learn the spell as described in the rules

This seems far too prosaic for such a world changing event. 

[Joerg]

I am still puzzled how the Waertagi managed to attack Jrustela during the Closing. That last message from Jrustela - "Damn the torpedos" - seems to suggest that they managed to do a ride-by out of Hell, past that continent, and down Magasta's Pool again.

[davecake]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I am still puzzled how the Waertagi managed to attack Jrustela during the Closing. That last message from Jrustela - "Damn the torpedos" - seems to suggest that they managed to do a ride-by out of Hell, past that continent, and down Magasta's Pool again.

Or that one last dragonship/fleet, as it is driven into the shore to be wrecked, decides to take as many God Learners with them as they can. Or it was hiding out on the shore somewhere until one carefully planned wild ride. 

[ZedAlpha]

Hm. Side note of no possible interest to anyone but me, but I’m planning on turning the Hero Wars into a big ol’ kaiju fight, and my PCs have more-or-less removed the Wolf Pirates as a threat to anyone. Having a big fleet of dragon ships rampaging around could be a fun wrinkle to throw in. 

[davecake]

1 hour ago, ZedAlpha said:

Side note of no possible interest to anyone but me, but I’m planning on turning the Hero Wars into a big ol’ kaiju fight, and my PCs have more-or-less removed the Wolf Pirates as a threat to anyone. Having a big fleet of dragon ships rampaging around could be a fun wrinkle to throw in. 

Well speaking of kaiju, there is a Waertagi facility just off Loral. 
 

[soltakss]

17 hours ago, davecake said:

That is effectively saying 'the city sized ship can just summon an undine and float it over land'. I mean, not impossible, but seems something an order of magnitude or more above previous Waertagi magical capability. 

Yes, but the Creek/Stream river at that point is navigable by coracles maybe. Not floating cities. 

Again, not something Waertagi dragonships (which are sea dragons) are known to do usually, and Waertagi able to take their cities across land would raise a LARGE number of questions. Including why they waited to do until after the Closing was over, and didn't just walk their way across land and spend the Cosing in inland lakes. 

Again, if they could do it, why wait until now, the point at which this so far unknown capacity was no longer necessary?

Yes, true, but she would more likely deal with it by sinking it, I would expect. 

Indeed, but that is just changing the who, rather than answering the much more difficult question of how. 

I'd think it more likely that we end up with the Waertagi ending up having to leave their ship there (possibly sinking it), and we end up with a situation like Castle Blue, blue people and their monsters living in their magical citadel in/under the lake. 

I get the impression that you have decided that the Waertagi ship cannot leave the Lake. Fine, I know GMs like that.

For me, I like to give people options as to how things might happen.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

I get the impression that you have decided that the Waertagi ship cannot leave the Lake. Fine, I know GMs like that.

For me, I like to give people options as to how things might happen.

Leaving the lake means surviving the 600 feet drop into Snake Pipe Hollow, and then widening the Creek Stream River by 500% to get just enough depth for the dragonship to slither along. This would destroy some of the fordable portions of the River...

A city-ship is at least half a hex long, and probably one sixth or so wide. The River is generously depicted as being about a tenth of a hex in width.

The magic of a tidal wave usually has the entire sea to support it, still swamping much of the coast as it carries a city-ship out of the deep waters into a prepared drydock, or carrying it out again. Getting one out of the Skyfall Lake might be possible, but carrying it across the drop into Snake Pipe Hollow, and then all the way down to the Choralinthor Bay may use up more water than even the great Engizi River provides. At least if it is to be done in one step.

I suspect that the harbor wave used by the Waertagi only works at high tide anyway, so there is a possibility that the semi-undead dragon carcass the city is built upon may come to rest a number of times, waiting for the next tidal cycle to summon a pitiful imitation of a tidal wave from the inland waters. This will be interesting to the denizens of Dragon's Eye, who might take exception at hauling a dragon carcass past their lands...

Next interesting waystation will be the Upland Marsh. Does the Tidal Wave magic work in Delecti's realm?

Beast Valley will be easy, but then we get to the Dammed Marsh. What will the city-ship do? Enter the way too narrow bad Belintar dug for the New River, and follow the Runnel and Lyksos River to crash into Orlanth's Hill at Nochet? Or find a great magic to cut through or bore through the Lead Hills blocking the passage of the Creek-Stream River, redirecting it into its old bed now upheld by the Marzeel River?

Can the Waertagi summon the old Aroka Sea for long enough to flush the city ship from Skyfall Lake to Sog's Ruins? This would be similar to their feats on the Janube Sea (now river) and driving the Listor, Poral and Oronin rivers into Peloria and reaching the Thunder Delta. (They left their city ships at sea for that venture...)

[Snugz]

I'm curious how the other major Western seafaring people, the Vadeli, fit into the Hero Wars. Nary a mention of them in most official sources (although in Pamaltela they're surely actively involved). It's hardly a secret that the Red Vadeli are back but the (blue) Boat Planet would make an ideal time for the Blue Vadeli to return and perhaps Vadeli are doing their own sinister ceremonies w/the Boat Planet heroquest; or corrupting others'. Once the Closing is gone and the Navigationalists/Quinpolics are decimated they probably have a great opportunity in Genertela. Ditto with the "rise" of Mostali block-thing by Jrustela; old allies reconnected w/Orange Guild of Jrustela. Thoughts?

[Nick Brooke]

Quote

They looked upon [the Waertagi debate] as the thrashings of two detestable foes...

My view? Go big, or go home. A Waertagi Cityship surfing The River from Skyfall down to the Mirrorsea sounds all kinds of awesome!

[davecake]

8 hours ago, soltakss said:

I get the impression that you have decided that the Waertagi ship cannot leave the Lake. Fine, I know GMs like that.

For me, I like to give people options as to how things might happen.

Indeed, we have very different philosophies. When something might change the basic balance of the world, upset the existing status quo completely, and make quite limited sense in terms of basic physical limits (why can't a ship that can carry a few thousand people sail down a river a few feet deep?), you still like to give PCs options for how things might happen. For me, it kind of ruins the point of playing in an established setting. 

But if Derek the troll can kill Harrek, I'm sure he can also float a giant city sized boat down a creek. YGDoesV. 

[Nick Brooke]

Psst! Nobody tell Dave about the Red Moon - I think he'd be quite upset to hear about it.

[metcalph]

If I were to do the Waertagi in Skyfall Lake, I would say that the mysterious Green Glass City at the bottom of the lake (and rises to the surface from time to time) is actually a Dragonship which arrived here during the Inhuman Occupation.  Its crew will be refeshed by the rising of the Boat Planet as more Waertagi find it and in 1656, there will be enough water for it to sail free of the Lake.  

[ZedAlpha]

And then during the tumultuous events of the Battle of Cragspider Takes A Bath, trolls rise from their hollows to wreak bloody vengeance on every water-worshipper they can find.