Missile weapons in touch range

[SMAY63]

I recently GM'ed a scenario where a player was closed assaulted  (touch range). 

The player was trying to shoot his rifle at the attacker. 

First, he wanted to 'scope shot' the attacker (he had a hunting rifle), but I said the target was too close, which the player accepted. 

The player then wanted to shoot the target with their hunting rifle (42 inches, 3.5 feet); but I said once again, the target was too close (in his face)'

The player then argued this, so did the other player, and a third person also joined in, saying the player could shoot at the target (which was 12-14 inches away), with his hunting rifle (3.5 feet long). 

I said there was no 'manoeuvring' room to get the barrel of the 'longarm' towards the target because it was too close. 

I later read through CoC 3e, 5e, 6e, and even 7e; but nothing on missile/ballistic weapon in touch range; until I came upon a paragraph in G.O.R.E. (D100), which some people should remember. Generic Old-school Roleplaying Engine. 

On p32, it states: Note that if range is touch, missile weapons cannot be used.

I cannot find this in any version of CoC. Have I missed something? 

Any advice would be most grateful. . 

[soltakss]

Why not push the attacker away and then shoot? The rifle could be used to help push away.

If they are in an enclosed space then the Investigator could shoot but at a penalty.

If really enclosed, have each participant make a Luck Roll and the one who rolls worse is the one who gets shot. I have seen many films and TV shows where two people are grappling and a gun goes off, shooting one of them, but it is not clear which one gets shot.

 

[SMAY63]

Thanks for the reply. Quite helpful. 

I tried explaining to the players about using the hunting rifle as an improvised club (stock), but the 3 of them were most convinced the longarm could shoot at a target 12 to 14 inches away. 

I know what you mean about 'pushing away'. I've seen this in WW1 trench fighting, etc; as the trench is invaded, the defenders will likely have bayonets on the end of their rifles which they use as a sort of 'improvised' spear-type weapon, then usually try to push away the attacker, to either use the bayonet, or step back and try to 'get a shot off' at the 'pushed away' target. 

I've been thinking of 1 or 2 of the reply you gave. Worth trying to discuss with them in a future game (if they'll listen). 

Once again, thanks for the reply and suggestions. 

SMAY63

 

[klecser]

I agree with soltakss. This is less about what the rule is, or should be, and more about how best to adjudicate it in situ. Call of Cthulhu is a squishy ruleset that depends upon a Keeper to make decisions.

In this case, you made a decision, and it wasn't a popular decision. That's your first opportunity to use the "Yes, and..." or "Yes, but..." techniques. People hate to be told no. Table fun increases the fewer times people hear "no." That doesn't mean the "Yes" completely acquiesces to what the player wants. 

soltakss has the simple solution that is the beauty of this system: "Yes you can shoot, but you will take a penalty die on the roll." 

[Joe Kenobi]

I like the penalty die solution: it's not that your player can't--especially if the player insists they want to give it a try--it's just that the attacker is so close he can't wield the rifle as effectively as he would under other circumstances.

[SMAY63]

Over the decades I've played and GM'ed various RPGs, I've been lucky enough to not encounter this situation or anything like it. 

I suppose it had to happen sometime. 

Thanks again for the replies (and advice). 

Hopefully they'll take the above advice under consideration. 

 

[mvincent]

COC 5e p.114 (covering firearms) says "One penalty die is applied when targeting a combatant involved in melee combat"

To me, that also includes combatants in melee with the one firing the firearm. In my campaign, this rule has effectively removed the point-blank bonus die for handguns (which I never liked as it made guns too effective and ubiquitous). Anytime a new player asks for a point-blank bonus, I also remind them of the above rule (so eventually, they quit asking).

Of course, hunting rifles don't get a point blank bonus, so the above rule results in an actual penalty die in the scenario mention in the initial post

[SMAY63]

Mvincent: Thanks for the input. 

In 5e CoC, should it be p36 out of pages 32-36 (Combat?); Or is it p113-114 (CoC 7e?)

As I stated in my original post:

"I later read through CoC 3e, 5e, 6e, and even 7e; but nothing on missile/ballistic weapon in touch range; until I came upon a paragraph in G.O.R.E. (D100), which some people should remember. Generic Old-school Roleplaying Engine. 

On p32 (G.O.R.E.), it states: Note that if range is touch, missile weapons cannot be used."

I suppose I use G.O.R.E. as a SRD of sorts, concerning D100 system. 

I can see the rules in 7e about a 'disadvantage dice for firing in to a melee, but what I was trying to get across to the player, and the others in the scenario, was the player (carrying a hunting rifle, 42 inches-3.5ft long), was too long to use to shoot back at a target who was in touch range (about 12 inches-1ft away) from him. 

There was I explained to them, no 'manoeuvring room'  to get the long arm to shoot at the target, as it was too close. 

I explained to him he could use the stock to swipe at the target, as an improvised club to push it away, but not fire at it. 

As Soltakss said "Why not push the attacker away and then shoot? The rifle could be used to help push away.". 

Which I suggested to the player, but, no go. 

Th target was much closer than the 'business end' of the weapon, I told the player; but alas, not accepted. I'm thinking of accepting the rule on p32 of G.O.R.E.

I have a feeling it won't be popular with some players, but it seems logical (not using missile weapon in touch range). 

 

 

[klecser]

19 minutes ago, SMAY63 said:

As Soltakss said "Why not push the attacker away and then shoot? The rifle could be used to help push away.". 

Which I suggested to the player, but, no go. 

Th target was much closer than the 'business end' of the weapon, I told the player; but alas, not accepted. I'm thinking of accepting the rule on p32 of G.O.R.E.

I'm not at your table, but these statements lead me to believe that the problem isn't rules but unwillingness to cooperate or compromise. "I don't accept your attempts to fairly adjudicate this situation" is not something that makes for a healthy gaming environment. I'm not saying it's easy to deal with. "Finding the rule that people will accept" may be a band-aid on a bleeding artery solution.

[Darius West]

On 4/25/2021 at 9:46 PM, SMAY63 said:

Thanks for the reply. Quite helpful. 

I tried explaining to the players about using the hunting rifle as an improvised club (stock), but the 3 of them were most convinced the longarm could shoot at a target 12 to 14 inches away. 

I know what you mean about 'pushing away'. I've seen this in WW1 trench fighting, etc; as the trench is invaded, the defenders will likely have bayonets on the end of their rifles which they use as a sort of 'improvised' spear-type weapon, then usually try to push away the attacker, to either use the bayonet, or step back and try to 'get a shot off' at the 'pushed away' target. 

I've been thinking of 1 or 2 of the reply you gave. Worth trying to discuss with them in a future game (if they'll listen). 

Once again, thanks for the reply and suggestions. 

SMAY63

 

While the rules say you can't use any missile at touch range, that certainly isn't the case IRL.  It is all a case of who acts first in a round imo.

Consider, if you take the rules as written, then a character cannot use a pistol to commit suicide, which should be the primary use of a sidearm in CoC (jk).

If a PC with a gun acts before the person who wants to grapple them, I would let them shoot, and at point blank.

If the PC with the gun acts second, then they are grappling and if they shoot, they are as likely to hit themselves as their enemy.

If the enemy who is in touch range doesn't attack them, then the PC can shoot with point blank bonus.

In terms of a long barreled weapon, the extra length does make them harder to aim at closer ranges, so remove the point blank bonus.

Anyhow, that's my 2 cents.

[soltakss]

6 hours ago, SMAY63 said:

As Soltakss said "Why not push the attacker away and then shoot? The rifle could be used to help push away.". 

Which I suggested to the player, but, no go. 

Th target was much closer than the 'business end' of the weapon, I told the player; but alas, not accepted.

Ok, so next time the Investigator grapples a cultist, get the cultists to shoot the Investigator.

Players who refuse to accept a Keeper's suggestion or ruling should not expect Investigators to last long.

[Atgxtg]

I usually just allow missile weapons at touch ranged to be blocked or parried. The idea being that the target grabs the weapon or arm of the attacker and points it somewhere else. 

[SMAY63]

Thanks for the replies. 

The player wanted to use his hunting rifle (42 inches/3.5 ft long), on his turn after the zombie/infected had tried to hit him (touch range). 

He first accepted a no at the 'scoped shot' he wanted to try, as I informed him the target was too close (in his face). 

But he still wanted to use the rifle at the target (1ft away), after it had attacked him (claw strike). 

Darius West: A pistol would have been ok, but equal chance of him shooting himself?

Suicide shoot: ok, no problem there. 

Edited April 27, 2021 by SMAY63

[SMAY63]

7 hours ago, klecser said:

I'm not at your table, but these statements lead me to believe that the problem isn't rules but unwillingness to cooperate or compromise. "I don't accept your attempts to fairly adjudicate this situation" is not something that makes for a healthy gaming environment. I'm not saying it's easy to deal with. "Finding the rule that people will accept" may be a band-aid on a bleeding artery solution.

Which is fine by me. 

I'm merely trying to get some 'feedback' about the 'scene' that occurred. If the player had used a pistol on his turn after he was close-assaulted (touch range), that seems ok, but maybe a chance of shooting himself as well during the 'struggle' if he missed? 

It seemed during the time (his turn), after the infected had tried to claw his face off, he tried to use a 3.5ft rifle at the target 1ft away. 

I suggested he use the rifle stock to 'bash' the target and hopefully 'push' it away; but he seemed intent on using his rifle. 

Just asking for feedback/suggestions about what other GMs would do in this situation. 

I hate saying no as a GM, but sometimes it does inevitably come up. 

 

[SMAY63]

37 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I usually just allow missile weapons at touch ranged to be blocked or parried. The idea being that the target grabs the weapon or arm of the attacker and points it somewhere else. 

Good idea. I'll suggest that next time. 

[Atgxtg]

22 hours ago, SMAY63 said:

Good idea. I'll suggest that next time. 

I just hope they don't blame me when someone fumbles and gets his head blown off! Maybe that just happens with our group?