Confused about the rules on page 246

[DrDave]

My group has been puzzled by the augementing with skill rules starting on page 246.

It began with, how do you take two rounds to resist a spell?

But now are uncertain when the rules are supposle to be applied.  
-Do they replace the rules for augmenting any time you want to cast or resist magic?  Ie.rolls using magic use different augmenting rules than other rolls?
-Are part of the ritual magic system and are used only when you want to spend more time to get a higher bonus?

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, DrDave said:

My group has been puzzled by the augmenting with skill rules starting on page 246.

This particularly applies to any magical skill or spell that you want to ensure has the highest chance of success.  It could be the magical skills such as Worship or Prepare Corpse.  It could be a Rune spell such as Discorporation or one of the enchantment spells.  It will very likely occur with Sorcery spells.  And while it could be a Spirit Magic spell, the desire for immediate effect probably outweighs the added effort to augment.

The augment approach is no different than any other case of augmenting skills.  You pick a relevant skill to augment with - and with magic that is likely to be Sing, Dance, Play (instrument), Speak (one of the Elemental languages) - and roll for your augment.  Determine the augment bonus (or penalty), and then make your roll for the magical skill or spell adding/subtracting the augment bonus. 

Now, with magic, particularly rituals and sorcery spells, you may get additional bonuses based on:  place, time of day/week/season, meditation, and ritual practices.  Some of these you need to get yourself to the right place at the right time.  Some just take a long time (1 year of ritual practices carefully preparing and marking an idol, or something similar). 

You don't want powerful rituals and spells to go wrong.  So you do all these things in advance as preparation (think of those things as preparing for an exam).  Then it's time for the exam itself, so now you augment with a skill to ensure you're in the right frame of mind.  And then you cast your magic.  (And still hope you don't fumble).

[Alex]

Ooo, good question, and excellent close reading.

Multiple-round resisting certainly sounds like a real corner case.  It rather implies that the spell being resisted has been really telegraphed, but you can't actually just wander over and <doink!> the caster as a more effective means of stopping it.  Like there's a line of pikemen in the way, or this is some sort of Wizard Duel situation.  Or they've tied you down while they cast Corruption on you, but they're still allowing you to sing your Going to My Happy Place song to help resist...

My take is this is the "time critical" version of augmenting with a skill.  I think you'd logically apply the same sort of thing if you were doing would logically take extra time, as using as skill -- as opposed to a Rune or a Passion -- very often will, and that's not necessarily available to you.  The examples it gives on p144 aren't time-critical in the same sort of way, so I wouldn't normally apply the logic of, the longer this dance goes on, the more my Singing is doing to help.

[DrDave]

I guess I'm still unclear.

"The augment approach is no different than any other case of augmenting skills."

The rules on 246 require you to spend at least one round in combat where you can't do anything else, not even parry or dodge.  Are you saying this is a requirement of all skill augments?  If you want to augment an attack in combat, using a skill augment, you first have to spend a round not parrying or Dodging?

So, effectively, if you want to augment in combat, you should use a rune or passion?

We have been letting people use any augment without requiring preparation time in combat.

Edited November 20, 2021 by DrDave

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, DrDave said:

We have been letting people use any augment without requiring preparation time in combat.

If that works at your table then carry on doing that.

In fact, that's how I would probably play it anyway.

2 hours ago, DrDave said:

The rules on 246 require you to spend at least one round in combat where you can't do anything else, not even parry or dodge.  Are you saying this is a requirement of all skill augments?  If you want to augment an attack in combat, using a skill augment, you first have to spend a round not parrying or Dodging?

It probably reflects the concentration involved with augmenting a skill. 

 

Quote

Augmenting with Skills
An adventurer can augment their own or another adventurer’s chance of casting a spell or a magical resistance roll by using a skill such as Dance, Sing, speaking a magical language, or another skill determined by the gamemaster. Augmenting is described in the Game System chapter. 
It takes time to augment a spell or magical resistance roll with a skill:
. If the adventurer spends only one melee round performing the augmenting skill prior to casting the spell or its equivalent, the chance of success with the augmenting skill is halved. 
. If the adventurer spends two melee rounds performing the augmenting skill prior to casting the spell, the chance of success for the augment is normal.
. For each additional round spent performing the augmenting skill prior to casting, the chance of success increases by +5%. The chance of success for the augmenting skill can never be increased above double its normal chance.

Presumably this is the section you are referring to?

Quote

It takes time to augment a spell or magical resistance roll with a skill:
. If the adventurer spends only one melee round performing the augmenting skill prior to casting the spell or its equivalent, the chance of success with the augmenting skill is halved. 

This means that if you rush the augment it is harder.

So, if you used a sword dance to augment your sword skill, you would use Dance beforehand, but if you did a little jig then it would be harder to augment, instead you have to focus on the dance, get into it and do it properly, the longer you Dance for the better your chance of augmenting.

[DrDave]

OK, so I'm getting info that I think is more than I need but its making me worry that its trying to tell me something more fundamental.  So let me summarize what I think I'm being told.

-If I want to augment the casting of a spell in combat with a skill, I have to spend 1 or more rounds doing nothing else (including dodging or parry).

-If I want to use a skill to augment a sword attack in combat, it is the same.

-The rule we were using where you didn't have to spend rounds, but just rolled the augment as a "free action", was essentially a house rule.  The only applies to rune and passion augments.

Assuming this is true.  The rounds have to come immediately before the skill being augmented?  Or just in the seam scene?

Edited November 20, 2021 by DrDave

[soltakss]

15 minutes ago, DrDave said:

-If I want to augment the casting of a spell in combat with a skill, I have to spend 1 or more rounds doing nothing else (including dodging or parry).

Yes.

15 minutes ago, DrDave said:

-If I want to use a skill to augment a sword attack in combat, it is the same.

Yes.

15 minutes ago, DrDave said:

-The rule we were using where you didn't have to do this was essentially a house rule.

Yes.

15 minutes ago, DrDave said:

Assuming this is true.  The rounds have to come immediately before the skill being augmented?  Or just in the seam scene?

I suppose that is open to interpretation.

It probably means the rounds before the augmented skill is used in combat, otherwise you are not using the augmenting skill for a full round, or two full rounds.

 

Quote

p247: An adventurer trying to augment their chances of success through use of a skill may take no other action, not even parrying or dodging. If the magician takes damage, they must make a roll of INT×3 or their concentration is broken. They must start over to get the augment.

 

[Ludo Bagman]

3 hours ago, DrDave said:

The rule we were using where you didn't have to spend rounds, but just rolled the augment as a "free action", was essentially a house rule.

Not necessarily - it depends if the character can do both things at the same time. There are examples for simultaneous augments in the rules (for example, Move Quietly and Hide, Disguise and Act, Sing/Dance/Play Instrument, or different Lores.). A problem is that most skill take more time than a melee round to be effective, but there are some that can be used during combat, like Listen, Scan, Jump, appropriate Lores, shouting battle-cries, etc.

Magic used in combat is more restrictive since a spell caster can't do much while casting and the time is even shorter. One could perhaps use Sing or a magical language to check the intonation and pronunciation of the chant, but these are already covered by the rules.

[DrDave]

5 hours ago, Ludo Bagman said:

Not necessarily - it depends if the character can do both things at the same time. There are examples for simultaneous augments in the rules (for example, Move Quietly and Hide, Disguise and Act, Sing/Dance/Play Instrument, or different Lores.). A problem is that most skill take more time than a melee round to be effective, but there are some that can be used during combat, like Listen, Scan, Jump, appropriate Lores, shouting battle-cries, etc.

Magic used in combat is more restrictive since a spell caster can't do much while casting and the time is even shorter. One could perhaps use Sing or a magical language to check the intonation and pronunciation of the chant, but these are already covered by the rules.

The rules seem pretty specific that you can do "nothing else".

[DrDave]

So that leaves just one question. How do augment a resistance with a skill, if it takes at least one round to do so?  Do you need to be able to guess that a spell is going to be able to be cast on you at least one round in advance?

[Squaredeal Sten]

46 minutes ago, DrDave said:

So that leaves just one question. How do augment a resistance with a skill, if it takes at least one round to do so?  Do you need to be able to guess that a spell is going to be able to be cast on you at least one round in advance?

In my opinion it would be an unusual case, but i can think of some circumstances in which you would have time to do an augment:

1) The Crimson Bat is coming.  This has automatic morale effects, a 4KM chaos scream according to the Bestiary.  You can see this thing a long way away, as it is flying high.  You have plenty of time to cast a spell like Face Chaos, also to improve your POW vs POW resistance to the Demoralize by singing an appropriate hymn.  It depends on your GM as to whether that tactic can work.

2) You encounter someone backed by Jack o Bears, as in a certain adventure...  anyway the Jack o Bear only harmonizes one victim per round IAW the Bestiary.  It harmonizes the adventurer next to you and you can deduce that you may be next.  You look for something to augment your POW and resist it - perhaps Meditate?  If the GM agrees that is reasonable, they you may do it.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Squaredeal Sten
capitalization

[Alex]

58 minutes ago, DrDave said:

So that leaves just one question. How do augment a resistance with a skill, if it takes at least one round to do so?  Do you need to be able to guess that a spell is going to be able to be cast on you at least one round in advance?

Well, as I said (in comment #3), it'd work if the incoming magic is even slower (and you had no other or better counter to it).  For example, sorcery starts slow, and gets slower.

Or also if you're a very good guesser, or have precognitive powers, I suppose...

Neither case seems likely to be super-common.

[Ludo Bagman]

41 minutes ago, DrDave said:

The rules seem pretty specific that you can do "nothing else".

When trying to augment a spell or magical resistance roll with a skill prior to casting a spell (that passage is in the magic chapter). Other augments don't mention that limitation, and the general rule (p.144) states: "However, the augment and the primary ability are considered to happen simultaneously, on the same strike rank, and are both performed even if the augment is unsuccessful."

There are some clarifications here:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-players-book-print/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-06-game-system/#Augmenting

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Those "clarifications" allow for "augmenting" a skill with a Passion.  If you allow that, the whole "only one Passion/Rune per scene" limitation goes out the door.  "Oh, I'm not Inspiring, I'm augmenting."

These clarifications are not so helpful.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Shiningbrow]

Firstly, singing in a magical language (wow, 2 augments!) would be happening as part of the casting, not before it.

Perhaps if you fumble the sung /dance it increases the chance the attacking caster will fail, cos it's so atrocious?? 😛

More seriously... Evaluate and Animal Lore skill - happen at the same time. You know whether the price us fair or not based on the quality of the animal. So, there's not really a reason to say you *need* time before to augment - it would depend entirely in the nature of the augment skill! Singing and dancing literally take time, so no freebies there. You could claim a Custom or Lore could help a resistance roll, and thus instant... 

I'd probably allow Elder Race Lore to help augment an attack on said Elder Race (albeit, probably heavily modified), hinting at the idea that you're familiar enough to anticipate their movements... I'd do something similar with a bargain too... 

[Alex]

On 11/21/2021 at 12:40 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Those "clarifications" allow for "augmenting" a skill with a Passion.  If you allow that, the whole "only one Passion/Rune per scene" limitation goes out the door.  "Oh, I'm not Inspiring, I'm augmenting."

I think the terminology and organisation could stand to be cleaned up a good deal, but I don't see how that's the case.  Indeed, the final clarification for that section:-

Quote

No. One passion / rune per scene. No limit on skills augmenting skills.

I think the intent is, any time you're "augmenting" with a rune or a passion, use the Inspiration rules.  If it's with a skill, use the Augmentation ones, which then potentially get into the whole "time" issue, in cases where that might be a limiting (or helpful) factor.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

I think the intent is, any time you're "augmenting" with a rune or a passion, use the Inspiration rules.  If it's with a skill, use the Augmentation ones

Thanks   That's pretty much what we have been ruling too.