The First Invasion of Prax.

[Darius West]

On 12/6/2021 at 3:51 AM, David Scott said:

Not an oasis, but may have been after Dwarf technology (https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/7315-scenario-ideas-for-dwarf-knoll/?do=findComment&comment=102295)

First, thanks for the detailed replies David, they are appreciated. 

As to Dwarf Knoll and the Copper Caves, I suspect that one of the old machines is leaking or diverting a considerable amount of water, enough for it to produce a reliable oasis.  The old Prax Map from RQ2 definitely includes Dwarf Knoll as an oasis, and other publications have made mention that it has its own human population of Oasis people living there, as well as Mostali in the Copper Caves that lie beneath the Dwarf Knoll.

On 12/6/2021 at 1:17 AM, David Scott said:

acquisition of magical power is another major thing from the Praxians, Prax and the Wastes.

Do you perhaps mean that the Lunars hope to release Wakboth from under the Block? 😈

On 12/6/2021 at 1:17 AM, David Scott said:

If they followed the Pavis road, there are no oases.

Well, technically you are absolutely correct.  There are zero oases on the Pavis Road.  In practice however, diverting off to Moonbroth and Dwarf Knoll for a day or so is a pretty normal behavior for merchants and other travelers using the road, assuming that they are otherwise welcome in the territory, and far from unthinkable for an army that needs a water supply.  Of course it is highly unlikely that the Lunars were welcome at all, and likely had multiple Praxian warbands 'nipping' at them the whole time. 

On 12/6/2021 at 1:17 AM, David Scott said:

I would suggest the order was Moonbroth, Pimpers Block, Day's Rest, Tourney Altar, Paps. With an increasingly large nomad continent gathering after every oasis. Remember, Day's Rest is a Waha Holy site, Tourney Altar an intertribal Humakti one and with the block not far, the Storm Bulls would also be appearing.

Heh, this makes a lot more sense given the new RQG maps than the old RQ2 one.  I would describe this as pretty much a Caravan Alley invasion route, and I tend to agree with your interpretation of the campaign route.  I wonder if Chaosium will ever officially comment on the issue.

[Darius West]

On 12/6/2021 at 4:48 AM, scott-martin said:

Great thread. I know this isn't your authorial intent here but in the context of persistent questions about the Lunar motivation the turn of phrase got terrible wheels grinding in my head.

Pleased to hear it scott-martin, and I must say I am very gratified by the quality of the comments, so, thanks to everyone.  I enjoyed your contribution so I have a few questions to tease your thoughts out a bit more.

On 12/6/2021 at 4:48 AM, scott-martin said:

From earliest days I've always gotten a whiff of palpable desperation from the way the Lunar thrust into Prax has been portrayed. It's a "mad rush" to the sea or whatever their primary target was, leaving the rest of us to make excuses for the fundamental strategic errors they apparently committed along the way. Something must be broken within the Lunar High Command, we hear, for them to commit to this irrational frontier before they really have the resources to do it right. The best military minds in the empire must not be thinking clearly.

This is interesting, given that the high command is Fazzur at the time, and he's generally regarded as being the apogee of Lunar military genius.  I suspect the reasoning for the attack was likely very logical, and the desperation set in later. My revised theories on that motivation are these:

(1) The First invasion was a "punitive" expedition after the Roman and/or European Colonial model.  The Praxians had raided into Sartar and clashed with the Lunars, and the Lunars felt that they had to punish the Praxians.  The seeming lack of motive is then explained, as punitive expedition tend to have very vague objectives of 'hurt the Praxians', and that lack of clear motivation is then expressed in a lack of a clear strategic objective to fulfil.  Given too much rope, the expedition commander proceeds to be given command of the wrong type of units, misjudges the style of warfare (they should be following the Yara-Aranis, anti-Pentan doctrine), and it is a bit of a wonder that the force manages to get out of Prax without being massacred.  This theory imo is a good fit for the evidence we have.

(2) The First invasion is an unprovoked rush for the sea. The Lunars are hungry for access to the Homeward Ocean, and having been denied ports by the Holy Country, they want to set up a port on the Delta of the River of Cradles.  They follow Caravan Alley trying to make a B-line for their objective, trying to garrison and control the oases along the way, but forces left behind don't have adequate time to fortify and get wiped out.  Due to the presence of the Antelope Lancers, the army is able to survive in Prax better than might be expected, and that, along with some fast talking diplomacy in a desperate situation prevents the massacre.

(3) This leads on from your Belintar reference.  The aim of the First Invasion was to provide a system of supply depots for a future invasion of the Heortlands from south of the Stormwalks, aiming to capture God Forgot and the southern Heortlands, rather than trying to tackle the more obvious path through Hendrikiland, where they might well find themselves facing a Second Building Wall Battle if they try.   This is how the Empire will get their blue water port, and perform a surprise attack on the Orlanthi who will all be looking to their northern frontier. 

(4) Some charge crazy Rupert managed to convince his majesty that Fazzur lacked vision, and that Rupert (thanks to his superior inbreeding) could conquer the whole of Prax easily as the Praxians are just ignorant savages, armed with bone tipped tools, who ride silly animals.  It is only due to the quality and training of the Lunar Officers under Rupert that the force manages to maintain cohesion and a complete disaster is averted while Fazzur tut-tuts into his beard in Boldhome, determined not to pull Rupert's fat out of the fire until he squeals uncle. 

On 12/6/2021 at 4:48 AM, scott-martin said:

Suddenly I wonder if there's another prophetic timeline in play important enough to force the illuminated geniuses to gamble their edge against the Holy Country away . They had been alerted to something catastrophic on the horizon. I think in order to forestall it they went "after Dwarf technology" where they could find it, pushing into the Copper Caves on the way toward Diamond Mountain. This was important enough for them to open up another front. I don't think they were successful enough to continue . . . or else they learned things that demoralized them. 

It is an interesting idea Scott-martin save for the pronounced paucity of evidence.  If the Lunars were aiming to hijack Mostali tech, there are closer and richer places to go after.  If they have done any research at all, they will likely realize that the dwarves of the Big Rubble and Copper Caves aren't replete with guns like some of the other Mostali settlements.  The notion of using the tunnels of the Copper Caves to go after Diamond Mountain is interesting, but logistically unsupportable.  I mean... Carting enough supplies for an army into the middle of a desert so you can then mule train them through a cave system following your Lunar Spelunking Corps won't scow imo.  The easier approach would be a major diplomatic push for Isidilian's support in Dragon Pass and then betray him and steal his tech.

On 12/6/2021 at 4:48 AM, scott-martin said:

They had a shot at derailing the dwarf plan for the cosmos and failed. There was a deadline and it expires. Arguably it was already too late in 1607 but they had to try.  After that, the strategy gets a little more febrile. It drives the empire a little crazier. Why not? No matter what happens with the Holy Country you've already lost in conventional terms. Only thing left is to seek increasingly unconventional definitions of victory (killing gods) because the Dwarf Prophecy is online and the crimson wonder will roll. Sometime after 1607 the world ended. Most people just don't know that yet.

 Except that I thought that the Dwarf Plan incorporated and foretells of the rise of the Red Moon as part of the repair of the world machine and sees the Lunars as a good thing.  Potentially this is a source of fresh allies for the Lunars, and an existential threat to the Orlanthi I would suggest.

On 12/6/2021 at 4:48 AM, scott-martin said:

Belintar was up to something within the Moon Rune itself that they hoped to not only counter by absorbing lunar vestiges in his big desert backyard but also maybe exploit them for themselves.

Well, given that the sub-kingdoms/satrapies of the Holy Country incorporates all the Elemental Runes into its terrain except the Moon, this would track. The logical place to look would be God Forgot.  The Red Moon Goddess spent a long time being dead and broken, and God Forgot also has a problem with its gods being a bit non-existent too.  Perhaps there is a correlation?

Edited December 9, 2021 by Darius West

[Darius West]

On 12/6/2021 at 5:47 AM, Corvantir said:

It seems to me that going east was a good strategical move :

- A territory that can be conquered quickly with limited resources;

- Allies that will help conquering and holding the said territory, allowing most of the invading army to come back to Dragon Pass without too much delay;

- A city controlling the access to ruins known to hide artefacts from the second age;

- Access to the sea through Corflu...

The colonization of the Bordelands has more to do with opportunity rather than something planned from the start, in my opinion.

These are good points Corvantir.  The territory could (logically, if not practically) be conquered quickly with limited forces, and the Sable Riders should logically come to the support of the Lunars.  Of course the land itself is not exactly economically enticing to the Lunars, given that it is a great big prairie and the Lunars would regard that as a desert.

As to the city controlling ancient artefacts, if the intention was to invade New Pavis then the Lunars really came up short on that one in Invasion of Prax 1.  

This leads me to David Scott's observation about New Pavis hiding Sartarite royals:

On 12/6/2021 at 1:17 AM, David Scott said:

Not sure how they might know that, but possible.

 Well, the Lunars do have a vested interest in wiping out the Sartar Royal house, and they have their own dedicated assassins.  You have to assume that they have captured enough household archives and retainers that they can figure out that the Line of Dorasar is a remote but plausible threat to the occupation, especially if someone who has some ability to see through Time gets a vision that the Empire's problems start in New Pavis, as some of the HQ literature alludes to.  So the notion that the aim was to conquer New Pavis is not implausible, and was certainly on the agenda in Invasion of Prax 2 (Electric Boogaloo?).

As to the notion that the aim was to take/ create a blue water harbor at Corflu, my reading might be superficial, but I get the feeling that this became a mission of the occupation under Sor-Eel the Short, and turned into a massive Bubble economy for the Empire due to frontier corruption, mainly created by Sor-Eel the Short (who we might imagine as being Danny De Vito playing Julius Caesar as if he were Al Capone, or at least that's how I think of him 😁).

[Joerg]

49 minutes ago, Darius West said:

This is interesting, given that the high command is Fazzur at the time, and he's generally regarded as being the apogee of Lunar military genius. 

That's not the case. Fazzur's success in 1605 and subsequent boasting about it earned him demission to Tarsh while the military stable genius Euglyptus remained as the high command.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

(1) The First invasion was a "punitive" expedition after the Roman and/or European Colonial model.  The Praxians had raided into Sartar and clashed with the Lunars, and the Lunars felt that they had to punish the Praxians.  The seeming lack of motive is then explained, as punitive expedition tend to have very vague objectives of 'hurt the Praxians', and that lack of clear motivation is then expressed in a lack of a clear strategic objective to fulfil.  Given too much rope, the expedition commander proceeds to be given command of the wrong type of units, misjudges the style of warfare (they should be following the Yara-Aranis, anti-Pentan doctrine), and it is a bit of a wonder that the force manages to get out of Prax without being massacred.  This theory imo is a good fit for the evidence we have.

Of your four theories, this is the only one that somehow floats.

Yes, there will have been Praxian raids on now Lunar occupied territory, and the Lunar high command under Euglyptus would certainly have liked to put a stop to that.

However, even a stable genius like Euglyptus may have noticed that there is a significant difference between the Praxians and the Pentan nomad raiders in the north - the Praxian have one of their most sacred places just within reach of an expeditionary corps. Take the Paps away from the Praxians, and they will either submit, or concentrate their efforts on regaining that most holy site - either way Euglyptus' province of Sartar would see peace.

There is no easy way from the Paps to the Zola Fel River. The Eiritha Hills form a bay where the Paps is nested, and approaching the river via the head acres will involve a turn back north before they can avoid the bogs of the delta.

A port site might have been available at Sog's Ruins. The Lunars ignored that.

Heortland had been wide open for the taking in 1605 when the main force of the Holy Country was concentrated at the Building Wall Battle, but Euglyptus was unwilling to take the lead of a costly feint while that nobody Fazzur makes the actual conquest and plunder of the eastern route to the sea. It isn't clear whether Fazzur could have taken Karse by storm, but without significant reinforcement from Esrolia, that was on the table.

Karse still would not have secured sea access as the Holy Country fleet was still at large, and could easily have blockaded that port, but the rest of Heortland would have been open for overland campaigning, and more and more port sites would have become available.

But then, Belintar's presence probably would have made a difference even to Fazzur, had Euglyptus been able to stomach that Provincial's sneering.

Still, the 1619 campaign proved that Karse was a realistic target for Lunar ambition, even with strong support from Esrolia against that conquest. (I wonder whether Nochet offered support, though - while Hendira may have seen the Other Way when Fazzur had established himself in Karse, it is possible that she remained neutral during the investment of Karse.)

Invading Heortland and God Forgot from Prax is not really an option. While that approach evades several fortified cities and river crossings, it involves several days of approach through uninhabited territory, creating a logistical nightmare. (Barbarian Fort doesn't count.) Plus an open flank towards Prax.

 

 

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

It is an interesting idea Scott-martin save for the pronounced paucity of evidence.  If the Lunars were aiming to hijack Mostali tech, there are closer and richer places to go after.  If they have done any research at all, they will likely realize that the dwarves of the Big Rubble and Copper Caves aren't replete with guns like some of the other Mostali settlements.  The notion of using the tunnels of the Copper Caves to go after Diamond Mountain is interesting, but logistically unsupportable.  I mean... Carting enough supplies for an army into the middle of a desert so you can then mule train them through a cave system following your Lunar Spelunking Corps won't scow imo.  The easier approach would be a major diplomatic push for Isidilian's support in Dragon Pass and then betray him and steal his tech.

Or send adventurers into the Clanking Ruins. Both God Learner and Dwarf secrets available there.

 

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Well, given that the sub-kingdoms/satrapies of the Holy Country incorporates all the Elemental Runes into its terrain except the Moon, this would track. The logical place to look would be God Forgot.  The Red Moon Goddess spent a long time being dead and broken, and God Forgot also has a problem with its gods being a bit non-existent too.  Perhaps there is a correlation?

The Prince of Sartar comic postulates a Lunar connection for God Forgot while still giving it the Man Rune, but I think the place to look for the Moon Rune is the entire coastal area - the tidal zone.

[dumuzid]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Prince of Sartar comic postulates a Lunar connection for God Forgot while still giving it the Man Rune, but I think the place to look for the Moon Rune is the entire coastal area - the tidal zone.

IMG the Pelaskans have a small but active cult of the Blue Moon founded around a myth of Annila saving them from drowning in nothingness in the Greater Darkness.

[Joerg]

12 hours ago, dumuzid said:

IMG the Pelaskans have a small but active cult of the Blue Moon founded around a myth of Annila saving them from drowning in nothingness in the Greater Darkness.

The Pelaskites and the local Ludoch were among those who experienced relief from the Implosion of the Spike, as the seas returned to the dead body (salt desert) of Faralinthor, and the Creek-Stream River re-awakened Choralinthor. Before that, the problem was the absence of water.

With the Creek-Stream River rushing into Choralinthor Bay, the Pelaskites would have been among those the least exposed to the initial Chaos rift in the center of the world, but subsequent disintegration of the world would have affected them like it did everybody else.

They survived in two places - in the cyclopean walls of Old Karse on the Creek-Stream River estuary, and in the crannogs or stilt houses of the City of Amphibos, the Newtling hero, in the western Choralinthor Bay, alongside the newtlings of the bay.

 

In my project for the region, there is a blue grotto which has a piece of the Blue Moon deep below its water surface.

[soltakss]

On 12/9/2021 at 7:10 PM, Joerg said:

On 12/9/2021 at 5:51 PM, Darius West said:

(1) The First invasion was a "punitive" expedition after the Roman and/or European Colonial model.  The Praxians had raided into Sartar and clashed with the Lunars, and the Lunars felt that they had to punish the Praxians.  The seeming lack of motive is then explained, as punitive expedition tend to have very vague objectives of 'hurt the Praxians', and that lack of clear motivation is then expressed in a lack of a clear strategic objective to fulfil.  Given too much rope, the expedition commander proceeds to be given command of the wrong type of units, misjudges the style of warfare (they should be following the Yara-Aranis, anti-Pentan doctrine), and it is a bit of a wonder that the force manages to get out of Prax without being massacred.  This theory imo is a good fit for the evidence we have.

Of your four theories, this is the only one that somehow floats.

Yes, there will have been Praxian raids on now Lunar occupied territory, and the Lunar high command under Euglyptus would certainly have liked to put a stop to that.

My impression was that a lot of rebels from Starbrow's Rebellion fled to New Pavis, to join their kin there, and started causing problems for the Lunars. That was one of the reasons for the attack on New Pavis. If they were going to attack New Pavis then Prax would follow.

Also, the Lunars had an interest in Moonbroth and probably wanted to take that anyway, so that would mean invading Prax.

[Darius West]

On 12/11/2021 at 11:42 PM, soltakss said:

My impression was that a lot of rebels from Starbrow's Rebellion fled to New Pavis, to join their kin there, and started causing problems for the Lunars. That was one of the reasons for the attack on New Pavis. If they were going to attack New Pavis then Prax would follow.

Also, the Lunars had an interest in Moonbroth and probably wanted to take that anyway, so that would mean invading Prax.

Starbrow's Rebellion is in 1613, while the First Invasion of Prax (the one we are discussing) is in 1608, so I can't agree with your initial statement as it doesn't fit the chronology Soltkakss.  In fact, the Second Invasion of Prax happens in 1610 happens prior to Starbrow's Rebellion in 1613 too.  Given that the line of Dorasar, which is part of the Lineage of Sartar is still alive in New Pavis, obviously the Lunars have a vested interest in wiping it out, and of course many Sartarites had been fleeing East to New Pavis since the Lunar conquest of Sartar in 1602, so Prax and New Pavis certainly wasn't short of Sartarites who hated the empire, but that doesn't seem to have been the motive for the first invasion.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Darius West

[Darius West]

On 12/10/2021 at 6:10 AM, Joerg said:

Of your four theories, this is the only one that somehow floats.

Yes, there will have been Praxian raids on now Lunar occupied territory, and the Lunar high command under Euglyptus would certainly have liked to put a stop to that.

However, even a stable genius like Euglyptus may have noticed that there is a significant difference between the Praxians and the Pentan nomad raiders in the north - the Praxian have one of their most sacred places just within reach of an expeditionary corps. Take the Paps away from the Praxians, and they will either submit, or concentrate their efforts on regaining that most holy site - either way Euglyptus' province of Sartar would see peace.

The idea that the aim was to take a Lunar Punitive expedition to the Paps is certainly an interesting one and there is a reason I put Punitive expedition as my number 1 choice; it seems the most likely.

I would also suggest that the Empire definitely had designs on Prax, because frankly, if you want to stop nomads raiding your lands, the best thing you can do is poison their nearby water sources.  The main reason you wouldn't do this is (a) can't afford enough poison, or lack the tech, neither of which apply to the Lunars imo or (b) don't poison wells that you will eventually use during your invasion. 

I think it is reasonable to assume that Lunars had likely scouted and mapped out Prax well in advance of their first invasion, likely via Etyries merchants, so we can assume that they knew where all the oases were before they invaded, and were well aware of the importance of the Paps in Praxian religion.

I have a couple of problems with taking the Paps being the goal.

(1)  If the aim was to stop raids on Occupied Sartar, surely invoking a Praxian jihad against you by invading their Holy of Holies isn't the best strategy (though I admit that Euglyptus is a stable genius).

(2) The whole expedition seems a bit too disorganized for it to have such a clear objective.

(3) The fact that the Lunars make it to the Paps for negotiations makes it seem too much like a Lunar success.

On 12/10/2021 at 6:10 AM, Joerg said:

There is no easy way from the Paps to the Zola Fel River.

There is a trail that leads from the Paps to the  Stony Creek, then to Rory's Well and down to Helmbold.  Unlike most water sources in Prax. Stony Creek seems to be a Zola Fel tributary of the non-seasonal kind.  I would not suggest that Stony Creek was navigable by any boat with a remotely deep draught, and indeed I suspect that your average Impala could likely leap it with a run-up, but a road with 2 settlements and a water supply counts as easy access in my book. That seems like a pretty easy way from the Paps to the Zola Fell.  Map evidence available in front of RQG.  I don't think this invalidates your Paps argument, but it doesn't negate the idea that the Lunars are looking for a path to the sea either.  Perhaps our stable genius thought he could fortify the Paps? Y'know... Build a wall?😄 

On 12/10/2021 at 6:10 AM, Joerg said:

The Eiritha Hills form a bay where the Paps is nested, and approaching the river via the head acres will involve a turn back north before they can avoid the bogs of the delta.

Again, this depends on which map you are looking at.  What we can say with certainty is that Tolkazzi and his Lunar mission find the ruins of Feroda in 1611, and founds Corflu (named for Tolkazzi's wife) around the same time, because he sells his rights to it in 1613, and the Corflu Bubble gets going pretty much immediately.

On 12/10/2021 at 6:10 AM, Joerg said:

A port site might have been available at Sog's Ruins. The Lunars ignored that.

The RQG 1625 map shows Sog's Ruin sitting on the top of a cliff about 10km from Prax's coastal swamp, and with no obvious water supply.  I think the Lunar engineers were competent in their assessment.

On 12/10/2021 at 6:10 AM, Joerg said:

Heortland had been wide open for the taking in 1605 when the main force of the Holy Country was concentrated at the Building Wall Battle, but Euglyptus was unwilling to take the lead of a costly feint while that nobody Fazzur makes the actual conquest and plunder of the eastern route to the sea. It isn't clear whether Fazzur could have taken Karse by storm, but without significant reinforcement from Esrolia, that was on the table.

TBH, I think feinting around the back of the Stormwalks with an extended supply line through hostile territory to create a surprise attack on the Heorland's southern flank sounds very much like something Euglyptus might try.  After all, the fortifications in the area are hardly a match for Lunar magic and siege equipment, and when enough Prax beasts all piss at the same time, Praxians call that a river.  It is an act that is redolent with both stability and genius. Ici, ici, ici, et victoire Napoleon, C'est un fait accompli. ☺️.  (I still give this a much lower likelihood than the punitive expedition however.)  

On 12/10/2021 at 6:10 AM, Joerg said:

Heortland had been wide open for the taking in 1605 when the main force of the Holy Country was concentrated at the Building Wall Battle, but Euglyptus was unwilling to take the lead of a costly feint while that nobody Fazzur makes the actual conquest and plunder of the eastern route to the sea. It isn't clear whether Fazzur could have taken Karse by storm, but without significant reinforcement from Esrolia, that was on the table.

I think Lunar perception of the Holy Country at the time was that if Belintar can pull off one Building Wall, he could always do it twice, and lock down Hendrikiland.  I would suggest that this is one of the main reasons why the Lunars don't invade until after Belintar is out of the picture.  As you go on to say, Karse (while still not a blue water port) was realistic for the Lunars, but only after Belintar's assassination imo.  In the post 1619 period, the pro-Lunar faction in Esrolia are definitely in ascendency, and I'm sure that nobody in Nochet seriously objects to getting rich on Lunar trade despite how they may publicly chafe about it.

[Joerg]

What makes you think of Karse as not a blue water port?

It looks like Tarkalor invested in blue water port facilities as soon as he heard of Dormal's success, probably delegating the project to his cousin Jotisan.

The earlier incarnation of Karse further up the estuary when it still was the Creek-Stream River estuary was a blue water port when the God Learners explored the region. (That didn't keep them from adding their own, Lylket, a bit further west below the Shadow Plateau.)

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, Darius West said:

I have a couple of problems with taking the Paps being the goal.

(1)  If the aim was to stop raids on Occupied Sartar, surely invoking a Praxian jihad against you by invading their Holy of Holies isn't the best strategy (though I admit that Euglyptus is a stable genius).

(2) The whole expedition seems a bit too disorganized for it to have such a clear objective.

(3) The fact that the Lunars make it to the Paps for negotiations makes it seem too much like a Lunar success.

But consider that prior to invading Prax, the Lunars were used to dealing with the Tarshites and Sartarites where the Ernalda/Earth Temples have significant strength in the cultures.  Hon-eel conquered Tarsh by infiltrating the Earth Temple and joining into the Earth Temple rites.  Moirades subsequently marries the Feathered Horse Queen, the most powerful Earth priestess in Sartar, and generally the Lunars have strong allies in the Grazelanders until 1623+. 

What's the center of Earth religion in Prax?  The Paps.  So why not oasis hop with the intent to infiltrate into the greatest Earth Temple in Prax, perhaps even marry the Earth priestess?  At least until it proves that while powerful, the Earth Temple at the Paps does not control the Praxian tribes.  In 1610, they try again, but this time drawing upon the Twin Stars to convert/ally the Sable Riders, take Pavis, and plan to marry an aspect of the Red Goddess to Pavis.

[Nick Brooke]

@Darius West keeps writing about “taking the Paps.” YGWV, but none of the sources describe it that way. Sor-eel manages to make it to the neutral ground around the Paps of the Goddess, and his people somehow cut a deal with the Eiritha and Old Earth cult leaders there: one that inter alia recognises the neutrality of the Oases and prevents the rise of Waha.

(In my headcanon this is also what kicks off the Second Sable Conversion, when a handsome Antelope Lancer officer from the Hungry Plateau encounters the Queen of the Sables under the serious moonlight, but that’s just me. For more details, see Sitzmag Redmoon’s character sheet in Life of Moonson, Book One: The Characters)

[Darius West]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

@Darius West keeps writing about “taking the Paps.” YGWV, but none of the sources describe it that way. Sor-eel manages to make it to the neutral ground around the Paps of the Goddess, and his people somehow cut a deal with the Eiritha and Old Earth cult leaders there: one that inter alia recognises the neutrality of the Oases and prevents the rise of Waha.

(In my headcanon this is also what kicks off the Second Sable Conversion, when a handsome Antelope Lancer officer from the Hungry Plateau encounters the Queen of the Sables under the serious moonlight, but that’s just me. For more details, see Sitzmag Redmoon’s character sheet in Life of Moonson, Book One: The Characters)

I was commenting on the idea put forwards by Joerg that the Lunars aimed to take the Paps.  The idea of the Lunars ignoring the Praxian holy peace and neutrality and seizing the Paps isn't utterly unthinkable, it's just the sort of thing an empire might do to annoying people it classes as savages.

[Darius West]

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

What's the center of Earth religion in Prax?  The Paps.  So why not oasis hop with the intent to infiltrate into the greatest Earth Temple in Prax, perhaps even marry the Earth priestess?  At least until it proves that while powerful, the Earth Temple at the Paps does not control the Praxian tribes.  In 1610, they try again, but this time drawing upon the Twin Stars to convert/ally the Sable Riders, take Pavis, and plan to marry an aspect of the Red Goddess to Pavis.

You make an interesting argument, but the idea of marrying into the Paps suffers from the problem that the position of High Priestess of the Paps isn't hereditary, it's elected, and Egajia Chewer-of-Flesh, the present High Priestess is a morokanth, and quite probably married already. 

It's an interesting issue though... Who would the Lunar Hierarchy marry to a morokanth?  I can think of a few Lunars who deserve to.

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Darius West

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

I was commenting on the idea put forwards by Joerg that the Lunars aimed to take the Paps.  The idea of the Lunars ignoring the Praxian holy peace and neutrality and seizing the Paps isn't utterly unthinkable, it's just the sort of thing an empire might do to annoying people it classes as savages.

Apologies for the misattribution: I find life is too short to read Joerg's posts in any detail.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

You make an interesting argument, but the idea of marrying into the Paps suffers from the problem that the position of High Priestess of the Paps isn't hereditary

I don't think any of the Earth temple priesthoods are necessarily hereditary, so I don't see the issue.  When the high priestess is incarnated as the Earth Goddess, she's the Earth Goddess and that's who is married in the ceremony.

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

Egajia Chewer-of-Flesh, the present High Priestess is a morokanth, and quite probably married already.

An Earth Queen having multiple husbands is not unusual.  Queen Hendira of Nochet has two husbands.  The Feathered Horse Queen likely has year-husbands.

There's also the question of whether the Lunars knew the high priestess was a morokanth, or if when invoking the Earth Goddess that even matters?

[Darius West]

On 12/14/2021 at 12:00 AM, jajagappa said:

I don't think any of the Earth temple priesthoods are necessarily hereditary, so I don't see the issue.  

I got the impression that Sorana Tor was hereditary, but I might be wrong.

On 12/14/2021 at 12:00 AM, jajagappa said:

There's also the question of whether the Lunars knew the high priestess was a morokanth, or if when invoking the Earth Goddess that even matters?

I am pretty sure that a marriage can only be sanctioned to occur within an Earth cult if the individuals could actually be co-fertile.  It stands to reason imo.  Humans and morokanths aren't deities; they can't mate with mud and produce viable life forms (though I suspect we have all met people who might give it a go 😄).

[Joerg]

34 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I got the impression that Sorana Tor was hereditary, but I might be wrong.

The FHQ title is hereditary. The Sorana Tor incarnation not quite, although Arim's and Sorana's twin daughter probably became high priestess of the cult. It isn't clear whether the future generations came as twins, too, or if they did whether they married one another.

34 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I am pretty sure that a marriage can only be sanctioned to occur within an Earth cult if the individuals could actually be co-fertile. 

The High Khan of Waha is sort of obliged to marry the high priestess of Eiritha. When (only) one of them is a morokanth, fertility might require the Other Side and some shape-shifting shenanigans.

34 minutes ago, Darius West said:

It stands to reason imo.  Humans and morokanths aren't deities; they can't mate with mud and produce viable life forms (though I suspect we have all met people who might give it a go 😄).

In full mythical panoply, the act may happen on the Other Side, where the deities have numerous shapes, and numerous bodies. The mating might still happen between a human couple and a morokanth couple, both of which would be these two individuals.

[soltakss]

On 12/12/2021 at 2:04 PM, Darius West said:

Starbrow's Rebellion is in 1613, while the First Invasion of Prax (the one we are discussing) is in 1608, so I can't agree with your initial statement as it doesn't fit the chronology Soltkakss.  In fact, the Second Invasion of Prax happens in 1610 happens prior to Starbrow's Rebellion in 1613 too.  Given that the line of Dorasar, which is part of the Lineage of Sartar is still alive in New Pavis, obviously the Lunars have a vested interest in wiping it out, and of course many Sartarites had been fleeing East to New Pavis since the Lunar conquest of Sartar in 1602, so Prax and New Pavis certainly wasn't short of Sartarites who hated the empire, but that doesn't seem to have been the motive for the first invasion.

I must have been thinking of those who fled the Lunar Invasion of Sartar.

I distinctly remember Sartarites fleeing to New Pavis.

[Joerg]

38 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I must have been thinking of those who fled the Lunar Invasion of Sartar.

I distinctly remember Sartarites fleeing to New Pavis.

Happened all the time. Exile from your own clan or tribe in Sartar for them to evade Lunar persecution doesn't mean that the Lunar authorities in Pavis will have it out for you in Pavis, at least not until you hang around in conspicious company. You'd have to be quite notorious for your "wanted" portrait to make it to Pavis, or for someone to remember your name on a list.

[Darius West]

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

The FHQ title is hereditary. The Sorana Tor incarnation not quite, although Arim's and Sorana's twin daughter probably became high priestess of the cult. It isn't clear whether the future generations came as twins, too, or if they did whether they married one another.

As an aside, has a FHQ ever become a Sorana Tor I wonder?

[Joerg]

32 minutes ago, Darius West said:

As an aside, has a FHQ ever become a Sorana Tor I wonder?

In a way, all have.

Did the FHQ ever preside over human sacrifice?

No idea, but she does have a Humakti bodyguard unit (those snapper-turtle cuirass vendref guys).

[Darius West]

On 12/15/2021 at 11:20 PM, Joerg said:

In a way, all have.

Did the FHQ ever preside over human sacrifice?

No idea, but she does have a Humakti bodyguard unit (those snapper-turtle cuirass vendref guys).

The reason I ask is that I once ran a Tovtari Campaign starting in 1595 where one of my female players wanted to play an Ernaldan, and rolled high nobility, so I made her a potential claimant to both Sorana Tor and FHQ through an ancient blood tie to the early settlers of Far Point.  This meant I could run a lot of intrigue, and get the rest of the party pushing to help her succeed as a means of undercutting Lunar power in the region, post-invasion.  It was a rollicking treach + murder fest, and definitely MGDV.