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Death of Embodied Spirits


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On 6/11/2022 at 1:55 AM, David Scott said:

Elementals - embodied spirits, when it dies, it dies. You don't re-summon (it's gone), you summon a different one.

So I was re-reading the bestiary today and I noticed that this isn’t true of all embodied spirits (Babaka Fegh, Snake Daughters and Black Horses, Wraiths) so how do I tell which ones die which ones discorporate and which ones return to the deep spirit world? For example do Nymphs, Voughs, Kogui, Thunder Brothers die when there hitpoints are reduced to zero or do they just return to the deep spirit world? Or are you using die in this context to refer to returning to the deep spirit world? 

On a more practical note am I correct in interpreting this to mean that when the elemental dies you have to  sacrifice POW for a new one?

Also this has been bugging me for a while: are demons embodied spirits?

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48 minutes ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

...

On a more practical note am I correct in interpreting this to mean that when the elemental dies you have to  sacrifice POW for a new one?

...

You sac POW for the "Summon Elemental" spell.
You cast from your Rune-Pool, which is the total number of points sac'ed to your deity.

Every time you cast, you get an elemental; there are thousands of them, maybe millions, I dunno...  You get one, it's essentially a faceless force of nature.  I'm not sure if the concept of "same one" even applies.

When the elemental "dies" or the spell expires or whatever, the elemental is gone from the mundane world.  But you can re-cast the spell, up until your Rune Pool is empty; recover it at worship-service.  If you have a big-enough rune-pool, I allow more than one elemental simultaneously.

 

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32 minutes ago, g33k said:

You sac POW for the "Summon Elemental" spell.
You cast from your Rune-Pool, which is the total number of points sac'ed to your deity.

Every time you cast, you get an elemental; there are thousands of them, maybe millions, I dunno...  You get one, it's essentially a faceless force of nature.  I'm not sure if the concept of "same one" even applies.

When the elemental "dies" or the spell expires or whatever, the elemental is gone from the mundane world.  But you can re-cast the spell, up until your Rune Pool is empty; recover it at worship-service.  If you have a big-enough rune-pool, I allow more than one elemental simultaneously.
 

“Having once successfully summoned an elemental, the deity sends the same elemental every time the adventurer summons an elemental of that size and type. Having once successfully summoned an elemental, the deity sends the same elemental every time the adventurer summons an elemental of that size and type. If the caster summons more than one elemental of that size, they can choose which one they summon in the future.” Summon elemental: Page 343, RQ:RPG

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1 hour ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

“Having once successfully summoned an elemental, the deity sends the same elemental every time the adventurer summons an elemental of that size and type.”

Summon elemental: Page 343, RQ:RPG

Huh.
OK, I won't argue with the RAW; I just misremembered!  Now I need to figure out whether I'm going to Vary My Glorantha to fit my memory, or follow the RAW...

And it does kind of imply that if "your" elemental gets destroyed, then you may not have anything to summon next time you cast...  Kind of, anyhow...

OTOH, the next clause, "If the caster summons more than one elemental of that size, they can choose which one they summon in the future,” suggests that the spell is not linked or limited to an individual elemental.  I would rule that you get a new one from your deity.

But regular combat dropping HP's, or spirit-combat running-down MP's, only "dispels/dismisses" it (AFAIK/IIRC).  I think only an assault in the Othrworld, or a POW-drain down to zero, will actually kill it.

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4 hours ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

So I was re-reading the bestiary today and I noticed that this isn’t true of all embodied spirits (Babaka Fegh, Snake Daughters and Black Horses, Wraiths) so how do I tell which ones die which ones discorporate and which ones return to the deep spirit world? For example do Nymphs, Voughs, Kogui, Thunder Brothers die when there hitpoints are reduced to zero or do they just return to the deep spirit world? Or are you using die in this context to refer to returning to the deep spirit world? 

On a more practical note am I correct in interpreting this to mean that when the elemental dies you have to  sacrifice POW for a new one?

Also this has been bugging me for a while: are demons embodied spirits?

death is not the end, when you die, you leave the mundane world

so when an embodied spirit die, you may summon it later. However, I will request to wait weeks to do it (to let the spirit regenerate/travel from some part of the underworld/etc)

however a gm may accept the "destruction" of the spirit (so no come back). but in this case it will not be done by killing the body or just win a spirit fight. Something more chaotic probably

to sumon a spirit you need to use rune point, not POW, you need to sacrifice POW to learn the spell and to build your rune pool. But you regain your rune points.

However, I would allow to sacrifice/learn several times the summon spell X, to obtain  different spirits with the same size X ( so one summon spell implies always the same spirit as you noticed). Not sure it is usefull however to have a lot of spirits except when you are shaman or priest dedicated to a temple (you need a lot of spirits with you to manage a temple, I think)

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1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

However, I would allow to sacrifice/learn several times the summon spell X, to obtain  different spirits with the same size X ( so one summon spell implies always the same spirit as you noticed). Not sure it is usefull however to have a lot of spirits except when you are shaman or priest dedicated to a temple (you need a lot of spirits with you to manage a temple, I think)

I’m uncertain if what you are saying is that this is your houserule or where this is how you think the spell works but I don’t think this is how it works RAW:

“If the caster summons more than one elemental of that size, they can choose which one they summon in the future.”

Which implies that a single sacrifice can grant access to multiple Elements.

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2 minutes ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

“If the caster summons more than one elemental of that size, they can choose which one they summon in the future.”

Which implies that a single sacrifice can grant access to multiple Elements.

So an initiate summons a Large fire elemental, then next round another, and next round another. They now have three large fire elementals roaming around. After 15 mins they all disappear. Next time the initiate can choose which of the three it wants. 

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:

So an initiate summons a Large fire elemental, then next round another, and next round another. They now have three large fire elementals roaming around. After 15 mins they all disappear. Next time the initiate can choose which of the three it wants. 

We have a trollkin PC with really bad POW. He was very pleased to find a 6 POW Shade, because now he has something to more reliably get POW gain rolls off of. 🙂

Presumably he will eventually look for a stronger one...

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2 hours ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

I’m uncertain if what you are saying is that this is your houserule or where this is how you think the spell works but I don’t think this is how it works RAW:

“If the caster summons more than one elemental of that size, they can choose which one they summon in the future.”

Which implies that a single sacrifice can grant access to multiple Elements.

seeing Scotty answer, it seems I didn't understand well the second spirit..

For me, it was [ 1 pow = you summon spirit A then B then C. once everyone is out, if you summon again, the first one will be A, then B, then C etc. If you want to summon B without summoning A before, you need to have a "second" summon spell = 1 more pow) ]

but I will follow Scotty answer now

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4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

seeing Scotty answer, it seems I didn't understand well the second spirit..

For me, it was [ 1 pow = you summon spirit A then B then C. once everyone is out, if you summon again, the first one will be A, then B, then C etc. If you want to summon B without summoning A before, you need to have a "second" summon spell = 1 more pow) ]

but I will follow Scotty answer now

As I understand the thread: Each summon /cast/ consumes a RP, not a POW sacrifice. The POW sacrifice occurred when you gained access to the spell. If you have three RPs in your pool, you could cast three summons at 1RP each.

Casting multiple summons in close order (so the first spirits summoned are still roaming) "tags" those spirits as "yours" for future summons -- but at that point the choice of which is to respond can be made during the summon.

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And unless I am missing an exception to the rule (or miss-understanding entirely) learning spells (like summon elemental) can be done without  sacrificing for more RP

”an initiate can gain access to the cult’s special Rune spells in return for exceptional service to the cult, by donating the equivalent of 100 L per point of the spell, or for other reasons that further the cult’s goals and standing” 275

which is an alternative way of learning a spell from that described in the rune magic chapter 

“Cults also possess one or more special Rune magic spells. An adventurer gains access to cult special or associated cult Rune spells at the same time they sacrifice POW for Rune points. For each point of POW sacrificed, the adventurer acquires the right to cast an additional cult special Rune magic spell. As the magical link between the cultist and the deity deepens, the adventurer also gains a broader use of the deity’s power.“ 313-314

I have been interpreting these two to mean that the RP pool and Rune Spells known are separate and the donation/service method increases one without the other but I could be misunderstanding.

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1 hour ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

As I understand the thread: Each summon /cast/ consumes a RP, not a POW sacrifice. The POW sacrifice occurred when you gained access to the spell. If you have three RPs in your pool, you could cast three summons at 1RP each.

yes I agree. My point was if your first summon was spirit A, how, in another season, can you summon a different spirit than A (because the  rules say once you summon A, you always summon A) Sp I conclude, if I want to summon A alone sometimes, and B alone sometimes  I need to learn another version of the spell (another version = another sacrifice) . But that was not the good way

 

52 minutes ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

And unless I am missing an exception to the rule (or miss-understanding entirely) learning spells (like summon elemental) can be done without  sacrificing for more RP

”an initiate can gain access to the cult’s special Rune spells in return for exceptional service to the cult, by donating the equivalent of 100 L per point of the spell, or for other reasons that further the cult’s goals and standing” 275

which is an alternative way of learning a spell from that described in the rune magic chapter 

“Cults also possess one or more special Rune magic spells. An adventurer gains access to cult special or associated cult Rune spells at the same time they sacrifice POW for Rune points. For each point of POW sacrificed, the adventurer acquires the right to cast an additional cult special Rune magic spell. As the magical link between the cultist and the deity deepens, the adventurer also gains a broader use of the deity’s power.“ 313-314

I have been interpreting these two to mean that the RP pool and Rune Spells known are separate and the donation/service method increases one without the other but I could be misunderstanding.

mm I think this point was already answered in other posts (but my memory)...

from my perspective there are two things :

1) someone (mundane) teaches you knowledge, practice, etc... You must pay (mundane) for that => lunar or reward, or what you want

2) you need to create a "chanel" between your soul and your deity dedicated to this spell (= pow sacrifice)

mundane sacrifice (1) is not enough (but I am able to say again some wrong things... however I always play it like that both mundane requirement + POW sacrifice)

 

and to complete :

a) you can sacrifice pow to gain more RP even if there is no spell to learn (or if you don't want to learn another one)

b) you must sacrifice only 1 pow for any spell, even if the "cost" to cast the spell is 2 or 3 RP. Of course if you don't have enough RP you cannot cast the spell you know

 

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6 hours ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

@French Desperate WindChild Do you remember which thread it is in?

unfortunatly not

 

i searched in the well https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-13-rune-magic-qa/#ib-toc-anchor-0

but not these points.

May the true :50-power-harmony::50-combination-communication::50-power-truth::50-rune-law: god @Scotty  validate (or invalidate) my answers 😛

 

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5 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Can you restate the question (as it isn't clear what you are asking for clarification on).

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17 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

 

mm I think this point was already answered in other posts (but my memory)...

from my perspective there are two things :

1) someone (mundane) teaches you knowledge, practice, etc... You must pay (mundane) for that => lunar or reward, or what you want

2) you need to create a "chanel" between your soul and your deity dedicated to this spell (= pow sacrifice)

mundane sacrifice (1) is not enough (but I am able to say again some wrong things... however I always play it like that both mundane requirement + POW sacrifice)

 

and to complete :

a) you can sacrifice pow to gain more RP even if there is no spell to learn (or if you don't want to learn another one)

b) you must sacrifice only 1 pow for any spell, even if the "cost" to cast the spell is 2 or 3 RP. Of course if you don't have enough RP you cannot cast the spell you know

 

How to learn rune spell

@Scotty

 

@FlamingCatOfDeath thought there were two ways, paying OR sacrificing

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3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

How to learn rune spell

Adventurers start with all common spells the god/ess allows and three other spells and three rune points.

If you want to increase your Rune point pool and learn a new spell:

Quote

At the gamemaster’s discretion, an initiate can gain access to the cult’s special Rune spells in return for exceptional service to the cult, by donating the equivalent of 100L* per point of the spell, or for other reasons that further the cult’s goals and standing.

RQG, Initiates, Duties and Restrictions, page 275.

Then you can sacrifice a point of POW to add to your rune pool, and you can choose another spell regardless of the spell's rune point cost:

Quote

For each point of POW sacrificed, the adventurer acquires the right to cast an additional cult special Rune magic spell. As the magical link between the cultist and the deity deepens, the adventurer also gains a broader use of the deity’s power.

RQG, Gaining Rune Magic Spells, page 314.

The rune point pool limit is the adventurers CHA. In a small number of cases (Major cults like Orlanth and Ernalda) have more spells than the human max CHA of 21 (including Enchantments and associate cult rune magic). By then your adventurer will be pushing their rune point overflow (above CHA) into one-use magic, divine intervention and their Hero Soul, to learn all the spells.

My players figured out that getting the higher point spells at Character Creation was cheaper than getting them later. For example: with Orlanth Adventurous, Earth Shield (3pts), Summons of Evil (3pts) and Teleportation (3pts) (from Mastakos) would require a donation of 600L each (30 cows!), so are a must at character creation (it cannot be denied that this makes interesting adventurers). 

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On 6/13/2022 at 3:45 AM, Scotty said:

So an initiate summons a Large fire elemental, then next round another, and next round another. They now have three large fire elementals roaming around. After 15 mins they all disappear. Next time the initiate can choose which of the three it wants. 

Ah, thanks, this always confused me!

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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