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lunar yelmic background : need some data


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Hello all

I want to build a little background in Oraya ( around Kallyr rebellion)

my main focus is an old noble family.

The clan was never a great clan, only client  of more powerful clans. The clan is on a downward path and will probably disappear in the next years

there are 5 characters

The father, ~45 years old, is the leader of his clan. He worships Yelm

The mother, ~ 40 years old, came from another noble family of course. She is a very (yelmic) good wife. She always agrees her husband, etc...

The first good son, ~25 years old. A promising warrior, able to restore the clan name. The only issue.. He is dead.

The second son, ~18 years old.  A Polaris initiate and officer  (the lower level) in the provincial army. Not really at the good position, in the good time. Too peaceful but duty is duty

The daughter, ~16 years old, not yet initiate. An artist, she loves the forge (she create smart mechanism and beautiful little shapes)

the parent are very conservative, the yelm way, the children would appreciate some "freedom" , the lunar way

 

Now my questions

the clan / family.

1) Is there a difference between a clan and a family in dara happan society ?

I mean are people working for the noble family (merchant, tenant, ...) considered as part of the clan ? Or the relationship is different ?

 

2) Where does the family live ?

I know we are in a very urbanized society but should nobles live in palace inside the city or do they live in some manor in rural area ?

What could be a city palace / manor for this family ? lot of slaves ? lot of rooms ? garden inside high walls ? like a roman villa ? shorter than that ?

 

3) What sonority should I use to create a family name / firstnames ?

I know EelAriash as a family name, of course I don't want this one but is there any guideline, like firstnames list in dragon pass in the core rules book ?

I have in mind that lunar firstnames are more or less "latin" however I have no source for that.. Is it really the case ? How can I name my characters

If you have a list of firstnames (male / female) I would appreciate a lot !

 

the people

4) Dady... the only question I have is his status in Yelm cult. Is he able to be sun lord ? He have done nothing very important for dara happa society. The more exceptional event is that he is the son of his fater. Could he even be a Yelm imperator ? only by birth ?

 

5) Mummy... (the return) . Something I m confused too is the cult of noble darahappan women. I believe but I have doubt, they should be Dendara cultits. Am I right ? I think appropriate to have the mother as Dendara initiate but is there other possibilities for a non exceptional noble woman (Yelm, Ernalda, ... ?)

6) lost sun. As the oldest heir he was planned to become the next family leader. So initiate of  yelm, and initiate of a war/officer god. But  is the second god mandatory ? Or could you be a great officer "only" as a Yelm initiate (or rune level) ?I mean of course there are exception, but if dady planned his son success in the lunar army, should he hope a second initiation or not ? if yes Polaris ? Yanafal ?

7) poor son. So i want him to be polaris. Should he be to be Yelm iniitate too ? Or lay member is enough ?

8.) the daughter... ah... so what a daughter is expected to be  ? will she be married by her father to the husband of his choice ? What should she do  / learn as a good young noble woman ? How weird it is to a nice girl to work metal ?

 

I probably forgot questions.. but there are enough for a first step. Thanks for your help !

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4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

1) Is there a difference between a clan and a family in dara happan society ?

Commoners and barbarians have clans - Dara Happans have families.

 

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I mean are people working for the noble family (merchant, tenant, ...) considered as part of the clan ? Or the relationship is different ?

They are part of the household, yes.  But they aren't related by blood.

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I know we are in a very urbanized society but should nobles live in palace inside the city or do they live in some manor in rural area ?

Both in the city and out in the country.  Only poor people have single residences.

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

 

4) Dady... the only question I have is his status in Yelm cult. Is he able to be sun lord ? He have done nothing very important for dara happa society. The more exceptional event is that he is the son of his fater. Could he even be a Yelm imperator ? only by birth ?

He is the High Priest for his family.  It matters not that he has done nothing important for Dara Happan society, what matters is that they are able to do important stuff for him.  If he leads a small family, then I doubt he would be an Imperator.  As for being the son of his father, that's not necessary.  Yelm requires direct descent within four generations.  

 

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

6) lost sun. As the oldest heir he was planned to become the next family leader. So initiate of  yelm, and initiate of a war/officer god. But  is the second god mandatory ? Or could you be a great officer "only" as a Yelm initiate (or rune level) ?I mean of course there are exception, but if dady planned his son success in the lunar army, should he hope a second initiation or not ? if yes Polaris ? Yanafal ?

Ran off to the join the army, did he?  How vulgar.   He can worship whatever strange gods he likes but don't expect further advancement in Yelm's graces. 

 

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13 minutes ago, metcalph said:

then I doubt he would be an Imperator

This gets pretty restricted.  He must be a Sun Lord for 5+ years, and must be consecrated in his role by the Red Emperor (and for this to occur, he must also be an initiate of the Red Goddess, which is also not simple).  

20 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Ran off to the join the army, did he?  How vulgar.   He can worship whatever strange gods he likes but don't expect further advancement in Yelm's graces. 

As long as he sticks to Yelm subcults, he's probably ok (and presumably serves as an officer, not a vulgar soldier).  Hastatus/Avivorus (the Spear Man), Saggitus (the Archer) would both work.  Polaris is an associated cult, so likely acceptable too and still allow advancement.  Some of the former emperors who lead armies (e.g. Urvairinus, Murharzam) should be acceptable for officers of certain regiments.

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5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

3) What sonority should I use to create a family name / firstnames ?

I know EelAriash as a family name, of course I don't want this one but is there any guideline, like firstnames list in dragon pass in the core rules book ?

I have in mind that lunar firstnames are more or less "latin" however I have no source for that.. Is it really the case ? How can I name my characters

If you have a list of firstnames (male / female) I would appreciate a lot !

I don't have an exhaustive list for Pelorian names. There's a mixture of Latin, pseudo-Latin, Greek, pure fantasy nonsense, and fantasy nonsense that's meant to sound vaguely Mesopotamian. When I make up Pelorian names, I also tend to throw in Nahua, Mixtec, and Zapotec names, and occasionally Akkadian, Hittite, or Babylonian names or jokes too. 

 

Quote

the people

5) Mummy... (the return) . Something I m confused too is the cult of noble darahappan women. I believe but I have doubt, they should be Dendara cultits. Am I right ? I think appropriate to have the mother as Dendara initiate but is there other possibilities for a non exceptional noble woman (Yelm, Ernalda, ... ?)

 

 

I probably forgot questions.. but there are enough for a first step. Thanks for your help !

The typical noblewoman living a typical noblewoman's life worships Dendara, but Ourania is also a prominent cult for noblewomen who work outside of the home, and according to Greg Stafford, the Ourania stereotype is of a no-nonsense bureaucrat. She may also have Gorgorma or Shargash worship in her past if you want her to have a Dark secret. 

Quote

8.) the daughter... ah... so what a daughter is expected to be  ? will she be married by her father to the husband of his choice ? What should she do  / learn as a good young noble woman ? How weird it is to a nice girl to work metal ?

My take: the breaching of class boundaries is possibly weirder than the breaching of gender norms, in direct proportion to what she works with. Gold? Well, OK, that's as pure as metal gets. Silver? Sure, whatever. Tin? Yeah, OK. Bronze? Sharp intakes of breath, worried looks. And so on. Simultaneously to this, Dara Happans are defined by being enormous hypocrites and willing to pretend things that are clearly happening aren't really happening, so I think the dynamic is probably elaborate ways of talking around the daughter's "peculiar little habit", which is ripe for player misunderstandings. 

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Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

Eight Arms and the Mask

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10 minutes ago, Eff said:

but Ourania is also a prominent cult for noblewomen who work outside of the home, and according to Greg Stafford, the Ourania stereotype is of a no-nonsense bureaucrat

Ourania initiates must be celibate, so not suitable for wives.

Likely the alternative for DH noblewomen to Dendara is one of the Lunar cults, probably Seven Mothers or Deezola.

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4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Ourania initiates must be celibate, so not suitable for wives.

Likely the alternative for DH noblewomen to Dendara is one of the Lunar cults, probably Seven Mothers or Deezola.

I mean, celibate in what fashion? Refraining from sex, from marriage, from reproductive sex? The last seems fairly synergistic with being menopausal, the former seems entirely normal for Dara Happan noble relationships, it's only the middle definition that creates a problem. 

Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

Eight Arms and the Mask

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1 hour ago, Eff said:

I mean, celibate in what fashion? Refraining from sex, from marriage, from reproductive sex?

From the cult writeup the path to her worship is pretty narrow.

"Ourania accepts lay membership from any female willing to follow her narrow and difficult path to purity. Ourania demands virginity or widowhood; in addition, she requires complete chastity and celibacy. A prospective lay member must go to a priestess of Ourania and pledge herself to the goddess’ restrictions."

"Initiates take a permanent vow of celibacy in action, word, and thought."  Also, "All temples to Ourania are nunneries. They are surrounded by high walls that separate the temple from the profane outside world. Within the enclosed area is a sacred area where songs are sung in praise of Dayzatar, and a residential area, where the initiates and priestesses live. Larger temples often have gardens for meditation and singing."

Basically, they withdraw from the world.

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1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

From the cult writeup the path to her worship is pretty narrow.

"Ourania accepts lay membership from any female willing to follow her narrow and difficult path to purity. Ourania demands virginity or widowhood; in addition, she requires complete chastity and celibacy. A prospective lay member must go to a priestess of Ourania and pledge herself to the goddess’ restrictions."

"Initiates take a permanent vow of celibacy in action, word, and thought."  Also, "All temples to Ourania are nunneries. They are surrounded by high walls that separate the temple from the profane outside world. Within the enclosed area is a sacred area where songs are sung in praise of Dayzatar, and a residential area, where the initiates and priestesses live. Larger temples often have gardens for meditation and singing."

Basically, they withdraw from the world.

That's a very striking change, huh.

Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

Eight Arms and the Mask

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7 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

3) What sonority should I use to create a family name / firstnames ?

For DH male names, I suggest drawing on GRoY and Fortunate Succession if you have them.  Many parts of the Emperors' names can be mixed and matched (and you can also find the derivation/meaning of the name in many cases).  

The only three DH family names noted through the Guide and other sources are:  Assiday (the most powerful), Yuthmesha (hereditary priests of Buserian in Yuthuppa), and Farquinil (from Red Fish city with certain members involved in Provincial politics).  Again, you could likely draw from some parts of imperial names as a source for a family name (i.e. likely reflecting some connection to Emperor X which proves the family's connection to Yelm).

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6 minutes ago, Eff said:

That's a very striking change, huh.

I don't think so - Ourania has always been the 2nd most remote deity, just slightly less than Dayzatar (and the only one who can regularly contact Dayzatar).

From the original WF #10 article: "Ourania was created straight from the mind of Dayzatar to sit in the throne while he was gone to rescue Lightfore. After he returned Dayzatar gave to his daughter all of heaven's rights to communicate with mortals for him, and to keep certain affairs in his name.... Ourania is noted for her virgin purity but saw the need for aids in her work. Thus with the light from her right eye she made Musa, the Spirit of Inspiration which brings the light of heaven to men's minds. With the light from her left eye she made Supla, who carries prayers and supplications from mortals to the ears of the Queen of Heaven."

 

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10 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I don't think so - Ourania has always been the 2nd most remote deity, just slightly less than Dayzatar (and the only one who can regularly contact Dayzatar).

From the original WF #10 article: "Ourania was created straight from the mind of Dayzatar to sit in the throne while he was gone to rescue Lightfore. After he returned Dayzatar gave to his daughter all of heaven's rights to communicate with mortals for him, and to keep certain affairs in his name.... Ourania is noted for her virgin purity but saw the need for aids in her work. Thus with the light from her right eye she made Musa, the Spirit of Inspiration which brings the light of heaven to men's minds. With the light from her left eye she made Supla, who carries prayers and supplications from mortals to the ears of the Queen of Heaven."

 

 

10 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Not really.  She was called the Virgin Mistress of Heaven in AH's Gods of Glorantha. 

I am thinking of Greg Stafford's apparent expressed view that Ourania cultists were imagined socially as being similar to mid-level, somewhat starched bureaucrats, which would seem to be rather impossible if their existence is spent cloistered and they are divorced from social life. Setting aside the rather baffling swerve into slut-shaming that Ourania apparently alone of the gods of Glorantha engages in, as implied by "virginity or widowhood".

Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

Eight Arms and the Mask

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21 minutes ago, Eff said:

 

I am thinking of Greg Stafford's apparent expressed view that Ourania cultists were imagined socially as being similar to mid-level, somewhat starched bureaucrats, which would seem to be rather impossible if their existence is spent cloistered and they are divorced from social life. Setting aside the rather baffling swerve into slut-shaming that Ourania apparently alone of the gods of Glorantha engages in, as implied by "virginity or widowhood".

Well, to support your argument that things have changed for the worse, perhaps you could actually give a reference for Greg's words? 

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9 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Well, to support your argument that things have changed for the worse, perhaps you could actually give a reference for Greg's words? 

I didn't say that things have changed for the worse, I said that it was quite a shift, and I don't have any idea what the point of finding chapter and verse on what probably will turn out to be a secondhand or indirect quotation would be. Can you enlighten me there? 

Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

Eight Arms and the Mask

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1 minute ago, Eff said:

I didn't say that things have changed for the worse, I said that it was quite a shift, and I don't have any idea what the point of finding chapter and verse on what probably will turn out to be a secondhand or indirect quotation would be. Can you enlighten me there? 

Well your gratituous insinuation that people were happy with slut-shaming gave a rather clear idea of your feelings on the matter.  And if your source was little more than something third hand, then perhaps avoid name-dropping Greg in future arguments, no? 

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1 minute ago, metcalph said:

Well your gratituous insinuation that people were happy with slut-shaming gave a rather clear idea of your feelings on the matter.  And if your source was little more than something third hand, then perhaps avoid name-dropping Greg in future arguments, no? 

What? Insinuation that people were happy with it? I don't know that anyone has any strong feelings about this cult, positive or negative.

I know that the presentation of the cult as given, by delineating that the definition of virginity it uses is distinct from how the Yelorna cult defines virginity in that widowhood and virginity are two distinct states, is straightforwardly that the cult slut-shames, such that having had premarital sex while remaining unmarried would apparently render you unable to become part of the Ourania cult. And I can presume that the cult reflects the direct experience of the goddess and that the goddess's worldview shapes the cult. All of this is an internal factor within Glorantha- this is just how the cult and goddess as they are described operate.

Saying that therefore people must like the slut-shaming on a moral level if they think the cult is a good fictional construct is sort of like saying that liking Uz or troll cults means you approve of cannibalism, slavery, and murderous ableism. Which would be a very asinine thing to say, I hope you agree! A cult can be morally abhorrent or questionable or suspect without it being morally degrading to enjoy it as a fictional object. 

I think that this version of the Ourania cult is not enjoyable, especially by comparison to the alternatives I have on hand myself, but that is of course my belief, which is an opinion. I also have a somewhat critical eye on how the Ourania cult has been discussed in the past as a kind of social release valve for alternate forms of womanhood in Pelorian society, because this version of the cult is entirely in line with the understanding of Dara Happa as monotonously misogynistic in a fashion that I find rather dull. I'm also skeptical of how this version of the cult exists socially in a Lunar context, but before I start in on that I'd better make sure I have every readily available citation for "the feminist Lunars" handy to pile them all in at once. 

Is there anything else you take issue with? 

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Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

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6 hours ago, Eff said:

My take: the breaching of class boundaries is possibly weirder than the breaching of gender norms, in direct proportion to what she works with. Gold? Well, OK, that's as pure as metal gets. Silver? Sure, whatever. Tin? Yeah, OK. Bronze? Sharp intakes of breath, worried looks. And so on. Simultaneously to this, Dara Happans are defined by being enormous hypocrites and willing to pretend things that are clearly happening aren't really happening, so I think the dynamic is probably elaborate ways of talking around the daughter's "peculiar little habit", which is ripe for player misunderstandings. 

May I ask if copper be better or worse than bronze? On one hand it is associated with Earth rather than Storm and it is a Rune Metal on the other it is very common and therefor could be seen as low class. I would think that Lead would be even less proper than Bronze given it’s elemental association.

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37 minutes ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

May I ask if copper be better or worse than bronze? On one hand it is associated with Earth rather than Storm and it is a Rune Metal on the other it is very common and therefor could be seen as low class. I would think that Lead would be even less proper than Bronze given it’s elemental association.

Well, Lodril is also associated with bronze/brass in Peloria. I think copper and lead and aluminium are all symbolic of sketchy, unclean forces. 

Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

Eight Arms and the Mask

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9 hours ago, metcalph said:

Ran off to the join the army, did he?  How vulgar.   He can worship whatever strange gods he likes but don't expect further advancement in Yelm's graces. 

I would not be so absolute on this matter.  There is nothing in the Yelm cult that suggests that an initiate of Yelm may have no other cult.

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Taking the question on a tangent, but one that I think will be useful to the French Windchild, and also for a Dara Happan girl wanting to escape the patriarchy. If Ourania is a harsh option, what cult are using the Lunars to draw promising yelmite girls into the Lunar way and independence from the family? Actually a deity that supports the Empire bureaucracy and has at the same time a place and authority within the Solar system seems an excellent solution for the Empire. Could there be a more permissive version of Ourania outside Dara Happa?

I suppose the Seven Mothers will be considered provincial within the Heartlands. So Deezola? The daughters (Hwarim, Yara, Hon-eel...) seem too external focused for Dara Happa and Etyries surely gets you thrown out of the family for simple mercantilism. Was that what they were trying with Entekos, making a Lunar friendly way for women in Dara Happa? One old DH option was Uleria, I suppose, but that also gets you out of the family.

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17 hours ago, JRE said:

what cult are using the Lunars to draw promising yelmite girls into the Lunar way and independence from the family? Actually a deity that supports the Empire bureaucracy and has at the same time a place and authority within the Solar system seems an excellent solution for the Empire. Could there be a more permissive version of Ourania outside Dara Happa?

Seven Mothers and Deezola would both be natural options, especially for a noblewoman.  Or Irrippi Ontor as the natural Lunar counterpart to Buserian, and as one of the Seven Mothers.  And I wouldn't exclude Etyries - bear in mind that she is the organizer of caravans, the collector of tribute, etc. - we don't have to put a medieval mercantilist spin on her.

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With the daughter's inclination to tinkering, i think Irripi Ontor would be a good fit - and respectable enough to pass muster  with her entourage. If there's a cult linked with respectable arts (scuplture, architecture, painting) it might be a good fit too, depnding if her creation leans more to the technical or artistic side.

Donandar is too much linked with wandering riffraff perfomers to be acceptable - way too much odds to exposure to Glorantha's equivalent of 'sex, drugs and rock'n roll'

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On 6/15/2022 at 4:29 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

1) Is there a difference between a clan and a family in dara happan society ?

I mean are people working for the noble family (merchant, tenant, ...) considered as part of the clan ? Or the relationship is different ?

Clans are more barbaric, I think. Dara Happans have families. There might not be much difference in how they work, though, except that Dara Happan Yelmic families are ruled by the Yelm cultists.

On 6/15/2022 at 4:29 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

2) Where does the family live ?

I know we are in a very urbanized society but should nobles live in palace inside the city or do they live in some manor in rural area ?

What could be a city palace / manor for this family ? lot of slaves ? lot of rooms ? garden inside high walls ? like a roman villa ? shorter than that ?

They could live in a Dara Happan city, perhaps in a compound that was once part of a great estate but is reduced to a rump.

They could live in the country, in a house, or villa, that was once part of a great estate but only the house remains.

It really depends on how powerful, or rich, the family used to be.

They would probably have servants, or slaves, to keep up appearances.

On 6/15/2022 at 4:29 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

3) What sonority should I use to create a family name / firstnames ?

I know EelAriash as a family name, of course I don't want this one but is there any guideline, like firstnames list in dragon pass in the core rules book ?

I have in mind that lunar firstnames are more or less "latin" however I have no source for that.. Is it really the case ? How can I name my characters

If you have a list of firstnames (male / female) I would appreciate a lot !

They might have preferred names, so all children have one of a list of names as one of their names.

They probably have a family name, either expressed as the first or last name, maybe even a middle name.

As to the names themselves, there would be a lot of them, as Dara Happa is big with lots of people.

On 6/15/2022 at 4:29 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

4) Dady... the only question I have is his status in Yelm cult. Is he able to be sun lord ? He have done nothing very important for dara happa society. The more exceptional event is that he is the son of his fater. Could he even be a Yelm imperator ? only by birth ?

If he was born into the Yelm cult he could be a Sun Lord.

Being the son of his father is very important for a Yelm cultist, probably more important than anything else.

He could belong to Yelm Imperator, perhaps his was an important family that has fallen on hard times. Maybe they have a hereditary right, perhaps they can hold a certain office no matter how suitable they are.

On 6/15/2022 at 4:29 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

5) Mummy... (the return) . Something I m confused too is the cult of noble darahappan women. I believe but I have doubt, they should be Dendara cultits. Am I right ? I think appropriate to have the mother as Dendara initiate but is there other possibilities for a non exceptional noble woman (Yelm, Ernalda, ... ?)

Dendara is a good wife for Yelm worshippers.

Queen Deezola might be acceptable.

Ernalda is possible, as she was a concubine of Yelm, but it might be scandalous.

A Lokarnos wife might be suitable for a family with mercantile ties.

In theory, almost anyone is possible, but there might be a story behind it.

On 6/15/2022 at 4:29 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

6) lost sun. As the oldest heir he was planned to become the next family leader. So initiate of  yelm, and initiate of a war/officer god. But  is the second god mandatory ? Or could you be a great officer "only" as a Yelm initiate (or rune level) ?I mean of course there are exception, but if dady planned his son success in the lunar army, should he hope a second initiation or not ? if yes Polaris ? Yanafal ?

All of the sons could join Yelm, being the sons of their father. In fact, they probably all should. They would be Lay Members of Yelm, even if they were not Initiates.

The first son could be a Yelm initiate and nothing else. After all, he is a commander, he doesn't have to be just a plain warrior.

If he joined another cult that would be OK, as long as it is not an enemy cult.

Polaris or Yanafal Tarnils might be OK, but they would be seen as secondary to him being a Yelm cultist.

On 6/15/2022 at 4:29 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

7) poor son. So i want him to be polaris. Should he be to be Yelm iniitate too ? Or lay member is enough ?

He would automatically be able to join Yelm if he wanted to, unless he has disgraced himself.

Lay Member might be OK, especially if the oldest son was the one who inherited the family name.

After the first son dies, the second son would be encouraged to become a Yelm Initiate, otherwise the family name would die, and that is very important to Yelmic families.

On 6/15/2022 at 4:29 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

8.) the daughter... ah... so what a daughter is expected to be  ? will she be married by her father to the husband of his choice ? What should she do  / learn as a good young noble woman ? How weird it is to a nice girl to work metal ?

A dynastic marriage is only important if the family still has some power.

If the family is just another Yelmic family fallen on hard times, with no status, then why would anyone want to link with the family? 

Is she is beautiful then she would be a good choice for a bride, being a lesser noble.

What should she learn as a good noble? To dance, sing, embroider, manage servants, and support her husband and father.

Working metal might be fine. Joining a cult such as Lodril to be able to work metal better probably wouldn't be fine.

 

 

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