Age of Arthur BRP

[Bleddyn]

I started talking about it in the Intro thread and moved the discussion here. I would like to discuss a BRP that draws on the mystique of John Boorman's excalibur, the Poems and Literature of the Age of Tyrants 450- 700 AD ( Y Gododdin, Triads, Culwuch and Olwen) in Dark Age Britian, Ireland and Amorica.

PS the Bernard Cromwell Series on the Era I enjoy as well.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Bleddyn
Addtional reference

[ClawCarver]

It's a nice idea: a dark(ish), mythic take on the "Matter of Britain", drawing on the primary sources you mention. There'd be room for gritty inter-tribal fighting at one end of the realism scale, and Mabinogion-esque quests at the other. I'd like to see some BRP stats for the mighty boar Twrch Trwyth. "Hounds were let loose on him from all directions. That day until evening the Irish fought against him. In spite of that, he laid waste a fifth of Ireland."

Edited June 11, 2010 by ClawCarver
typo

[Atgxtg]

I suspect the reason why such a thing hasn't been released in the past is becuase Chaosium was the company that sold Pendragon, probably the definitive RPG for Arthruian gaming.

But the idea is a good one.

[Bleddyn]

I think pendragon was great when I was younger ( I have all 5 editions PDf). But the fluff and puff of chivalry doesn't hold up to the heroic culture of the time. That is why I was thinking about something fifferent. I actually had a discussion with the author about on his chat board.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Bleddyn

[Bleddyn]

The 13 treasures of Britian etc... think of the rich mystical literary texts to delve into and bring into a RPG BRP context. I don't know if it is faux pas but to bring the pelagain hersey and the theological conflict with in the christain chuch. Its clash with the old religion's. The idea of making St. Padrig's "Lorica" chant into a protective charm! The letter of St. Patrick to Ceredig of Alt Clud about raiding ireland and taking christain slaves... the adventures seeds alone in are great not to mention tapping into the Fey world and other magical realms.

Also I am retired with a great military Pension I wouldn't do it for money.... I would do it for the creative exercise. The same reason to revamp Stormbringer in my mind.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Bleddyn
Additional

[Atgxtg]

I think pendragon was great when I was younger ( I have all 5 editions PDf). But the fluff and puff of chivalry doesn't hold up to the heroic culture of the time. That is why I was think about something fifferent. I actually had a discussion with the author about on his chat board.

Heroic culture of the time? What time? King Arthur is a mythical figure. The reason why chivalry is included is because most of the Arthurian tales were written during the age of chivalry, for knights and ladies.

Now if you mean a dark ages or Romano-Celtic interpretation rather than a Chivalric one, that is certainly a good basis for a campaign, but "that it doesn't hold up to the heroic culture of the time" is nonsense. The heroic culture" of the time doesn't hold up to it's own literary ideals.

[Bleddyn]

I disagree authur as mythical as he may be is mentioned in early Northern Welsh poems.... and he was never mentioned as a king or High king for that mater just a "Dux Bellorum" (Master of Battles). The Heroric times of cattle/border raiding and such was very in context .... how one made the climb through a Welsh/Brythonic King's Teulu was due to Martial Prowess and conduct. Maybe I don't understand your point. I hope that doesn't offend you?

Other scholary and John Morris questionable scholarship"

The age of Arthur, John Morris

The Quest of Arthur's Britian, Geoffry ashe

Historical figuires of the Aurthurain Era, Frank Reno

An Age of Tyrants by Christopher Snyder

Welsh Military Institutions, Sean Davies ( I highly recommend it)

Edited June 12, 2010 by Bleddyn

[ClawCarver]

My feelings exactly. I remember encountering Pendragon in the '80s and, while I appreciate its oft-lauded merits as a game system, I have never been very turned on by the kind of courtly, chivalric Romance approach of Chretien de Troyes and, after him, Malory. Pendragon does that stuff very well, but I like my Arthurian lore darker, more mad and elemental, with more intermingling of early mystical Christianity and surviving paganism - damn it all, more Welsh. I'm thinking of the tone of bardic poems like "The Spoils of Annwn": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preiddeu_Annwfn

In the dim and distant past, I started (and never finished) writing some Irish/Welsh-influenced Iron Age adventures for AD&D 2e using the (pretty decent) Celts supplement. I can easily imagine a fun, mythic setting for BRP sitting somewhere in the dim, forested marches between that and Pendragon.

[rust]

It seems that it would not be too difficult to turn the various Celtic legends into an RPG supple-

ment, GURPS did it with a rather interesting result. In my view the main problem would be to

research the real, historical background of such a setting, because both historians and archae-

ologists obviously still find it very difficult to agree on any comprehensive picture of the time.

So, if one only wants a BRP supplement dealing with the legendary side of the period, a pure

"Celtic Heroic Fantasy" supplement, it should not be too difficult to write one, while an at least

partially historically accurate one could well take several years of research - especially if the

Anglo-Saxons and the people of Cornwall and Brittany should also be covered. And then there

are those Picts, with lots of theories and almost no sources ...

[Bleddyn]

My feelings exactly. I remember encountering Pendragon in the '80s and, while I appreciate its oft-lauded merits as a game system, I have never been very turned on by the kind of courtly, chivalric Romance approach of Chretien de Troyes and, after him, Malory. Pendragon does that stuff very well, but I like my Arthurian lore darker, more mad and elemental, with more intermingling of early mystical Christianity and surviving paganism - damn it all, more Welsh. I'm thinking of the tone of bardic poems like "The Spoils of Annwn": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preiddeu_Annwfn

In the dim and distant past, I started (and never finished) writing some Irish/Welsh-influenced Iron Age adventures for AD&D 2e using the (pretty decent) Celts supplement. I can easily imagine a fun, mythic setting for BRP sitting somewhere in the dim, forested marches between that and Pendragon.

we need to be drinking buddies!

[GianniVacca]

I like my Arthurian lore darker, more mad and elemental, with more intermingling of early mystical Christianity and surviving paganism

I liked the Marion Zimmer Bradley books.

[rust]

I liked the Marion Zimmer Bradley books.

Yep, these and another series of three books written by another female author (I do not re-

member the name), describing the Arthurian legend from the point of view of Gawain.

Edit.: Gillian Bradshaw is the author's name.

Edited June 11, 2010 by rust

[ClawCarver]

It seems that it would not be too difficult to turn the various Celtic legends into an RPG supple-

ment, GURPS did it with a rather interesting result. In my view the main problem would be to

research the real, historical background of such a setting, because both historians and archae-

ologists obviously still find it very difficult to agree on any comprehensive picture of the time.

Well, speaking personally, I prefer literature to history. What's more, I think literature almost always makes for more interesting roleplaying games. (The names Call Of Cthulhu and Stormbringer spring to mind.) Furthermore, we're gamers, not scholars, so we don't have to worry about agreeing on a comprehensive picture. We just have to do enough to make it believable and fun.

I'm intrigued by your comment that GURPS handled Celtic legends "with a rather interesting result." I'm not overly familiar with GURPS. Can you say more?

[Bleddyn]

Rust but there was so much more than that going on. The Palegian Heresy!. St Germain came over a few times to return the people of the civitias to oxthordoxy ( Catholisim).. Did you know in cambridge is the stone of a welsh bishop lamenting the loss of his wife ..... 6th century AD .... ( I am anglo-Catholic) take that as mud in your eye on Dogma. and to quote the Professor " the latin practiced in the remaing civitais was truer to form than the latin spoken on the continent at the time.

I guess what I am trying to say it was more than Celtic... the Roman Compound bow was still in use, the famous Cavalry of the Oleggd Hen was descendant of the Romano Gothic Equites Honoriani Taifali Seniores! I could go on ..... but it was a clash of Brythonic ( welsh is a Saxon term for foreigner), Germanic, and Romans.... the red headed sarmatians , and I better shut up.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Bleddyn

[Bleddyn]

the Question of the Complete hold of Christainity is stillin question .... Some say the conversion wasn't complete till mid-6th Century Ad.

[ClawCarver]

we need to be drinking buddies!

Can't argue with that. But since you have a good military pension and I am a lowly retail wage slave, the first round is on you!

[Bleddyn]

Done..... no wrist slitting and we are not fighting over my wife. We can head butt and call each other Jimmy!

[rust]

I'm intrigued by your comment that GURPS handled Celtic legends "with a rather interesting result." I'm not overly familiar with GURPS. Can you say more?

I was thinking of the supplement GURPS Celtic Myth:

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/celtic/

While I do not know the subject well enough to comment on the content of this supplement,

it is written with the usual high quality of GURPS sourcebooks. If you do not know it, I think

it could well be worth the money for the PDF (I think the print edition is no longer available).

[Bleddyn]

I was thinking of the supplement GURPS Celtic Myth:

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/celtic/

While I do not know the subject well enough to comment on the content of this supplement,

it is written with the usual high quality of GURPS sourcebooks. If you do not know it, I think

it could well be worth the money for the PDF (I think the print edition is no longer available).

I have the D20 Pdf's ( I hate d20... but it is reference point as well as some of the pendragon material does touch some the Dark Age myths

Also Looking at the time I know most of the europeans are hitting the rack I hope to talk again with you guys tomorrow.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Bleddyn
additional

[soltakss]

I've got some provisional stuff on the period at http://www.soltakss.com/#AgeofArthur for RQ3, not BRP.

My ideas were that the Celts and Romano-Britons worship deities in terms of RQ cults, but that Druids worship Pantheons and can access pretty much all the spells of the pantheon. Christians worship Saint Cults, but a lot of the saints come after this period, so they are limited to the important ones. There are a lot of Welsh, Cornish and Breton Saints living at this time, so they can be used in such a game. There is conflict between the three religions of Christianity, Nordic/Germanic and Celtic, with Celtic worship surviving in the Welsh Mountains, in Caledonia/Pictland and in the wilds of the Lake District/Fenland and Somerset Marshes.

I like my Arthur to be a Roman Knight, or descended from Roman Knights. There would be some chivalry, but no Medieval Christian knights.

The protagonists would be:

The Britons, in Cornwall, Wales, Northwest England, Southwest and Northern Caledonia and Brittany

The Saxons in the South and Centre of England

The Angles in the East and North of England and possibly in Southern Caledonia

The Irish in Ireland, along the Welsh Coast and beginning to appear in the West of Caledonia and the Islands

The Fairy Folk in Ireland and the Old Places of Britannia

Anyway, that's the gritty kind of background I'd like to see. I'm not keen on Pendragon as it concentrates on the chivalric side of the Arthurian tales and those don't really appeal to me. I much prefer the idea of Arthur sleeping with his sister, the knights fighting each other, Arthur conquering the Saxons and moving to the continent, conquering Scandinavia and Brittany before being defeated by his son, nephew and heir.

The Gododdin would be a central part to the history, as would the Mabinogian. The Arthurian tales would be useful but with a lot of stuff stripped out.

So, a Dark Age setting with some post-apocaltypic stuff thrown in would be ideal. The Romano Britons would be retreating in the face of the Angle, Saxon, Jute, Pict and Irish invasions. Cities would be sacked, armies defeated. Many Romans would leave for the continent, as the Empire falls apart. Priests would cling to their heritage, trying to retain their status as an outpost of Rome. New heresies and beliefs would come in. The Old Ways would surge back but would founder on the Nordic religion of the invaders.

Sounds good to me.

[Atgxtg]

I disagree authur as mythical as he may be is mentioned in early Northern Welsh poems.... and he was never mentioned as a king or High king for that mater just a "Dux Bellorum" (Master of Battles). The Heroric times of cattle/border raiding and such was very in context .... how one made the climb through a Welsh/Brythonic King's Teulu was due to Martial Prowess and conduct. Maybe I don't understand you point. I hope that doesn't offend you?

You are free to disagree, but no one, inclduing the scholars you mentioned have been able to prove or identify Arthur. That there are peoms and stories about "Arthur" don't mean sqaut, since there were many chieftains mnamed Arthur, any or all of whom could have had stories written about them, emblelished, combined and so on.

TO say that the Chivalric approach is "wrong for the times" would suggest that there is "right" approach.

But since there isn't a actual definitive historical Arthur to identity with the myths, stories and legends, no interpretation can be considered "Wrong for the times." Heck, historians and scholars can't even agree to "when" those times were. 4th century, 5th, 6th?

Don't get me wrong, I think that other approaches and interpretations of the legend are good gaming material, and would love to see more that just the "Knights & Armor" approach, but there is not enough know about the historical Arthur(s) to declare than one such view is wrong.

Some of the most believable Arthurian stuff I've seen suggest that "Arthur" probably wasn't British.

[Agentorange]

I was thinking of the supplement GURPS Celtic Myth:

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/celtic/

While I do not know the subject well enough to comment on the content of this supplement,

it is written with the usual high quality of GURPS sourcebooks. If you do not know it, I think

it could well be worth the money for the PDF (I think the print edition is no longer available).

Keep an eye on Noble Knight games, they turn up second hand copies at reasonable prices:

http://www.nobleknight.com/ViewProducts.asp_Q_ProductLineID_E_58_A_ManufacturerID_E_7_A_CategoryID_E_12_A_GenreID_E__A_Page_E_3_A_hidepictures_E__A_ItemsPage_E_20

[Atgxtg]

I was thinking of the supplement GURPS Celtic Myth:

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/celtic/

While I do not know the subject well enough to comment on the content of this supplement,

it is written with the usual high quality of GURPS sourcebooks. If you do not know it, I think

it could well be worth the money for the PDF (I think the print edition is no longer available).

There was also a GURPS Camelot book, that covered not only the Chivalric version of Arthur but a pseudo historical Arthur as well.

[soltakss]

You are free to disagree, but no one, inclduing the scholars you mentioned have been able to prove or identify Arthur. That there are peoms and stories about "Arthur" don't mean sqaut, since there were many chieftains mnamed Arthur, any or all of whom could have had stories written about them, emblelished, combined and so on.

So what if Arthur never existed? Probably neither did Robin Hood. It doesn't matter.

In a Dark Age game set around this time, it makes perfect sense to have an Arthur with much of the properties of the mythical Arthur.

TO say that the Chivalric approach is "wrong for the times" would suggest that there is "right" approach.

The Chivalric approach is fine. Having medieval knights riding around on destriers with massive castles doesn't fit the period. Sure, have a code of chivalry and even have a Round Table. The Romans had knights and had certain ideas of chivalry. Charlemagne was only a couple of generations after this time and he had Paladins and Knights, so why not at Arthur's court?

But since there isn't a actual definitive historical Arthur to identity with the myths, stories and legends, no interpretation can be considered "Wrong for the times." Heck, historians and scholars can't even agree to "when" those times were. 4th century, 5th, 6th?

"Wrong for the times" is subjective. Medieval knights don't fit, as stated above. It's a matter of preference. Pendragon does the medieval knights in Britain very well. A BRP Dark Age setting would be better, in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I think that other approaches and interpretations of the legend are good gaming material, and would love to see more that just the "Knights & Armor" approach, but there is not enough know about the historical Arthur(s) to declare than one such view is wrong.

Every roleplaying supplement is subjective and has to make value judgements all the way through. One might have a Dark Age Arthur, riding on a pony and fighting Saxons. Another might have ancient survivors of Atlantis trying to found a new kingdom in Britannia. Another would have knights in shiny armour riding out from medieval castles and jousting in tournaments. Still another would have Celtic Priestesses trying to take control of the remnants of Rome and fighting the Saxon Priests. Another would have the descendants of Jesus living in Glastonbury and spreading their version of Christianity.

Each one would make a reasonable supplement.

I know which one I'd prefer.

Some of the most believable Arthurian stuff I've seen suggest that "Arthur" probably wasn't British.

Maybe, maybe not. I'd have put him as a Romano-British Knight, descended from minor nobility. The theories of him being Samartian don't really fit for me, although having Samartian horsemen as mercenaries is fine - everyone used mercenaries, after all that's what apparently attracted the Angles, Saxons and Jutes to Britannia in the first place.

[Bleddyn]

So what if Arthur never existed? Probably neither did Robin Hood. It doesn't matter.

In a Dark Age game set around this time, it makes perfect sense to have an Arthur with much of the properties of the mythical Arthur.

The Chivalric approach is fine. Having medieval knights riding around on destriers with massive castles doesn't fit the period. Sure, have a code of chivalry and even have a Round Table. The Romans had knights and had certain ideas of chivalry. Charlemagne was only a couple of generations after this time and he had Paladins and Knights, so why not at Arthur's court?

"Wrong for the times" is subjective. Medieval knights don't fit, as stated above. It's a matter of preference. Pendragon does the medieval knights in Britain very well. A BRP Dark Age setting would be better, in my opinion.

Every roleplaying supplement is subjective and has to make value judgements all the way through. One might have a Dark Age Arthur, riding on a pony and fighting Saxons. Another might have ancient survivors of Atlantis trying to found a new kingdom in Britannia. Another would have knights in shiny armour riding out from medieval castles and jousting in tournaments. Still another would have Celtic Priestesses trying to take control of the remnants of Rome and fighting the Saxon Priests. Another would have the descendants of Jesus living in Glastonbury and spreading their version of Christianity.

Each one would make a reasonable supplement.

I know which one I'd prefer.

Maybe, maybe not. I'd have put him as a Romano-British Knight, descended from minor nobility. The theories of him being Samartian don't really fit for me, although having Samartian horsemen as mercenaries is fine - everyone used mercenaries, after all that's what apparently attracted the Angles, Saxons and Jutes to Britannia in the first place.

Knight/Penteulu/or come-whatever (germanic hearthtroop) I still think there is a big difference between the equestrian order (knights ) of roman culture and post roman cutlure and the knights of the mediveal romances.

I agree I don't think he is/was Sarmatian and that movie king arthur sucked hairy bachi balls. Keira Knightly was cute though.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Bleddyn