The Goddess Switch

[Darius West]

On 7/4/2022 at 3:03 PM, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

But there is a more fundamental test which is going into the godsworld and trying to identify the two gods together. That is how they made grandfather mortal and the rest of their composite deities: identification. The issue is that when their models were incorrect in regards to the two earth goddesses they refused to revise their models. The great sin of the godlearners was not the act of making models, it was refusing to revise their models when confronted with conflicting evidence.

We don't know exactly what the error was.  Apparently what I had read earlier about the switch involving grain goddesses has been retconned and now involves the interchangeability of Dendara and Ernalda.  I don't buy it, and that won't be in my Glorantha.

[David Scott]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

Apparently what I had read earlier about the switch involving grain goddesses has been retconned and now involves the interchangeability of Dendara and Ernalda.  I don't buy it, and that won't be in my Glorantha.

Where did you find that?

The Goddess Switch was with two Earth Goddesses (GtG 352) and happened in Slontos, causing famine in Esrolia.

We don't actually have any more details than that, likely because it all disappeared under the waves.

[Darius West]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

Where did you find that?

The Goddess Switch was with two Earth Goddesses (GtG 352) and happened in Slontos, causing famine in Esrolia.

We don't actually have any more details than that, likely because it all disappeared under the waves.

Yes, that is what I thought, but there is another version kicking around on Glorantha Wiki

[David Scott]

12 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Yes, that is what I thought, but there is another version kicking around on Glorantha Wiki

It references the Ernalda cult in Book 5 of RQ3, where it says:

Quote

The God Learners were convinced that Dendara and ErnaIda were the same entity, and they even managed to transpose worshipers with no ill effects.

While this could be interpreted as the Goddess Switch, it's doesn't actually say that.

[Darius West]

12 minutes ago, David Scott said:

It references the Ernalda cult in Book 5 of RQ3, where it says:

While this could be interpreted as the Goddess Switch, it's doesn't actually say that.

I am getting my info from this link: Goddess Switch

I don't think this source is correct, but it is out there.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I am getting my info from this link: Goddess Switch

I don't think this source is correct, but it is out there.

That is the reference that the page your refer to refers too. The source is the Ernalda cult in Book 5 of RQ3, where it says the text above.

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

It references the Ernalda cult in Book 5 of RQ3, where it says:

While this could be interpreted as the Goddess Switch, it's doesn't actually say that.

It's also repeated in the Glorantha Sourebook p70 which originally appears in Wyrms Footnotes.

Quote

In the mythologies of the world she takes a very background
and passive role, almost becoming absorbed by
the world as it grows to flower and fruition. During the
Darkness, she was shattered and broken as terror and hate
overtook her children. Afterwards, within our realm of
history and time, she has been worshipped often and by
many, but always as a local deity rather than being recognized
as the cosmic entity she is. Even during the revival
and unification of the Elder Cults by the God Learners
there was a stubborn persistence of these cults to remain
apart despite the most complex and perfect magical acts
of the philosophers. In one case, upon Summoning and
Riddling two similar goddesses the God Learners managed
to make the two deities admit that they were interchangeable,
and even forced the goddesses to exchange
worshippers without any substantial change in deity or
cult, but they could not make the two admit to being one
and the same. Thus, has the Goddess been absorbed into
the Web, and remains ever hidden from us behind the
Great Mystery.

Given Teshana's maritial discord described in the book and curious features in the Teshnan frieze in the guide, it's my belief that Teshnos was at the other end of the Goddess Switch suffering the failed marriages.  

[Darius West]

On 7/7/2022 at 5:55 AM, metcalph said:

It's also repeated in the Glorantha Sourebook p70 which originally appears in Wyrms Footnotes.

This is the version I subscribe to, I only raised that other Ernalda/Dendara link because I bumped into it and wondered if something had been retconned.

On 7/7/2022 at 5:55 AM, metcalph said:

Given Teshana's maritial discord described in the book and curious features in the Teshnan frieze in the guide, it's my belief that Teshnos was at the other end of the Goddess Switch suffering the failed marriages.  

That seems like a good answer.  If it isn't canon, it should be imo.

[soltakss]

I remember the Goddesses involved in the Goddess Switch being named somewhere, but cannot remember where it was. They weren't Dendara and Ernalda, though.

One of the long-term effects was that all marriages ended in divorce in one land, but I can't remember the other land's effects.

 

[Jeff]

Nobody knows any more which goddesses were switched. The experiment failed. But maybe something will turn up detailing that failure.

[Manunancy]

If I remember right the other land was unable to grow it's crops.

About the Dendara/Ernalda swap, since they're 'earth' and not 'land' godesses their mythic landscape isn't as affected by wordly locationm they were probably better able to cope with the effects. And so the God Learners decided that since that early experiment worked right, it would be a good idea to push the experiment farther - which didn't turn as expected...

Edited July 10, 2022 by Manunancy

[Darius West]

Pretty sure it was grain goddesses that seemed to have the same grain.  I mean, the Yelmies might notice that Dendara shouldn't have carnal relations with her own son Yelmalio...  Ernalda on the other hand...

[g33k]

On 7/6/2022 at 6:04 AM, David Scott said:

It references the Ernalda cult in Book 5 of RQ3, where it says:
...

While this could be interpreted as the Goddess Switch, it's doesn't actually say that.

n.b. that text specifically reads, "... and they even managed to transpose worshipers ..."  This says nothing about the goddesses themselves.

What it says is that  worshipers  of each are at home in the others' temples / worship-services / etc... up to & including recovering rune-points & praying for rune-magic.

Which proves, IMHO, that each is very-friendly toward the other (passing-on POW-sac's and Rune-Spells/Points, etc); but does not prove the goddesses themselves are "identical."

I realize that it  COULD  mean the two are identical -- it doesn't preclude that conclusion!  But neither does it prove that.

I might wonder about "twin sister" goddesses in this case (including associated "mistaken for one another" twin-shenanigans!) .