Araslithos

[metcalph]

5 hours ago, Eff said:

So... the answer is that the Marazi acquired sailors from Kethaelan refugees and remnants of the expeditionary force but at no point have developed any kind of capacity to construct ships on their own? Because if they were a closed society that would explain why they would remain unable to build ships after decades of interaction with the outside world, but instead they seemingly just don't adapt themselves to the new world in any way beyond this initial infusion of ships and sailors. 

Who said the Marazi were a closed society?  Only you.  All I have been saying is that as Pirates, they could easily grab their ships from outside and pointed to the well-known Holy Country Fleet.  Hence there is no need for major shipworks on the island, which is at odds with its description.

5 hours ago, Eff said:

This all feels extraordinarily convoluted as compared to "the Amazons have significant manufacturing capability and this is why they're a maritime power with crossbow-equipped marines on their warships."

There is only one crossbow, shown on one frieze.  Your argumentation is kinda like arguing that Broos should have metal-working capabilities because they are often armed with bronze weapons and armour.

[JRE]

My own take is that the Amazons, although feared by most of the neighbouring males, are a well known haven for women in Kralorela and Teshnos. I would assume the crossbows come from Kralorela, and probably the shipbuilding experience. I would also propose an underground cult of Tolat the husband outside of Trowjang, with some support in the mainstream Tolat cult. The cult may have some uxorial pleasure rituals, even if they are a shadow of what is felt in Trowjang. Meanwhile, it serves as a woman support network and funnels the right candidates back to Trowjang, possibly under cover of a pirate attack.

So, not only piratical amazons, but also a working society of women, that recruits promising candidates quite far away, and also serves as a haven for runaway women. It manages to maintain a working technology close to Kralorela's. Now I am sure they are recruiting among the Kethaelans in Melib, and I suppose the Esrolian queens would be interested in such a potential husband god, though worried if they are losing promising candidates, as unlike the Teshnans and Kralorelans, in Kethaela women hold most of the power.

So it is even a good reason for an Amazon to travel to Kethaela in a diplomatic mission, though as I said above, I believe she will lose access to her magic.

[Joerg]

While I don't think that there was much in the way of sea traffic past Fethlon during the Closing, I would regard the Sofali Isles and Trowjang as navigable coastal waters during the Closimg.

The Teshnans did practice coastal sailing during the Closing, to the extent that they sent a sizeable contingent of settlers along the Rozgali swamp coast around 1250 ST, establishing a colony on the Zola Fel estuary (what would become the Grantlands). The Praxians were busy fighting the remnants of the Pure Horse Folk then, and might even have employed the settlers as solar allies against the solar powers of the Pure Horse people.

The colony disappears on subsequent historical maps in the Guide, but there has been speculation that the Sun Dome Temple had been faced with the somewhat different solar mores of the Teshnans. There is apossibility that Sun County received a influx of the farmers of Selenteen's expedition after the Pure Horse Folk had been pushed out of Prax.

With this much coastal sailing almost 300 years into the Closing, I find it hard to assume that the Marazi of Trowjang had been isolated on their island, without any bridging by the Sofali turtle folk.

Sheng Seleris launched a naval raid on Vormain a little over a century later, across the Sea of Fog (which may never have been affected by the Closing). Sheng ruled over both Teshnos and much of Kralorela. His assault on Vormain may have used up all the people still involved in naval activities in the east.

[JRE]

I just considered that as long as you were in the white sea portions of Argan Argar Atlas it was coastal waters, so not affected by the Closing. The reflection came by how close Trowjang is to Kralorela proper. I suspect the exarchs are aware of what happens in Trowjang, but as long as the losses are small, and I am sure they downplay the importance of women defecting to Tolat's kingdom, it is better just to let it be. 

As for Araslithos, as she was born talking, I am sure she named herself. I would not be surprised if she was some reincarnated sage from previous time. But as a prominent amazon, I think it is clear she has to be a woman. The description of the Amazon lifestyle does not preclude advanced technology, just a different social structure and a low impact profile on the land. Lack of evident targets is also a good defence against powers like the Kralori.

[Erol of Backford]

So looking at what might draw an Amazon scribe, daughter of Araslithos to the Holy Country... maybe she is taking some documents for trade in search of documents on Toldat/Shargashin the Lunar Empire via the Holy Country. Maybe there is a correspondence going on with some bearded women at one or all of the LM temples at Derensev, Jelenkev, Durengard and others... maybe the father is actually Squinch Greybeard!?

[Joerg]

There is always the search for the Red Sword of Tolat, gone missing when Avalor carried it off to free his wife. She may have had some fruitless endeavour in Corflu about Selenteen's expedition, and might look for that hidden history in the Holy Country. Possibly on the trail of a conspiracy to keep those Teshnites forgotten?

But the Amazons would not have been part of that.

[JRE]

Although the Amazons may not know the whole story of the Red Sword of Tolat,  I am pretty sure they know it was moved westward from Teshnos, and possibly some of them may be interested in such a symbol of their deity, if only to return it to him.

[Erol of Backford]

From Revealed Mythologies it doesn't seem that the Amazons are very civilized?

Marazi. Tribe of Women resident on Trowjang Island. The Marazi are an all-woman tribe that inhabits the island of Trowjang and exclusively worships the god Tolat. They are fierce warriors, often acting as pirates in the waters around their island. Most live a relatively peaceful life in the island’s interior, raising yams, pigs, and children, and carving the beautiful hardwood charms that they export.

Trowjang. Large island of southeastern Genertela, noted for its Amazon residents, the Marazi. Trowjang is covered in jungle, dotted with villages inhabited by the all women Marazi. Its largest cities are only town sized.

Not a whole lot of Wonder-Woman going on there sadly.

Also the sword doesn't seem to be missing?

Tolat’s Sword. Divine weapon of Tolat. In the early God Age, Tolat fought against Bredjeg and was saved by Artmal, who received the sword as a reward for his help. The sword gained many victories in Pamaltela for the Artmali, but was acquired by the Zaranistangi King Zemendarn, of the Loper peoples. Later it was instrumental in saving Sechkaul for King Dengbalu. King Bradoszaran lost it to the Seshnegi. Ordanal returned it to Melib, where it is today.

Side note: (In the movie Tanpopo there was a discussion that if you only feed a pig yams/sweet potatoes and then kill it you can take its intestines and make some sort of sweet potato sausages?)

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 7/29/2022 at 10:05 AM, Erol of Backford said:

 She'll want to check out the Pavis Rubble but also Arrowmound and the archer pillars in Aurochs Hills (Can anyone spot the hills for me, I cannot locate?)

The Auroch Hills are in southern Sartar, south of the King's Road, west of the Stormwalk Mountains, SE of Wilmskirk.

 

[jajagappa]

11 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

From Revealed Mythologies it doesn't seem that the Amazons are very civilized?

Anything from Revealed Mythologies would be superseded by the Guide.  

15 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Ordanal returned it to Melib, where it is today.

Revealed Mythology content is not necessarily contemporary to the Guide.

E.g. Guide p.428: Circa 775, Ordanal, a man from Jrustela brought the weapon back to Melib and placed it in its ancient place.

p.429: . In 950, King Avalor, the last and greatest of the Jrusteli dynasty that ruled all of Teshnos, successfully removed the Red Sword to pursue those who had kidnapped his wife. He followed her kidnappers into the Wastelands, and neither Avalor nor the Red Sword ever returned.

[g33k]

On 7/28/2022 at 5:27 AM, Eff said:

... a god who famously has phallic symbols "he" keeps giving away or losing or having to share with others, there's no reason at all to assume that anyone born to them ... 

I skimmed the rest of the thread, but didn't see anyone following this point, but...

To my eye, in a folkloric way, this just  screams  of a non-cismale with a dildo; in fact, comedically(*) so!

For a divinity, of course "non-cismale" would be no barrier to "begetting" children.

 

 

(*) ETA - "comedic" as in, a recurrent comic theme of the folklore is ... loses their "penis" ... again!
sometimes with nigh-Eurmali effect (and occasional crossover myths)

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by g33k
ETA comedy

[JRE]

I have only seen one "The Red Sword of Tolat", and it has a fairly linear history. with kings tending to take it abroad and dying, so the loyal worshippers need to go recover it, which we have hints will happen again in the Hero Wars, and will get Teshnos involved in the Wars. 

On the other hand, I am sure many amazons own a Red Sword Talisman, with obvious phallic connotations and applications, and in several varieties, such as strap-on, double sword, straight, bent, and custom hilt. A year is a long time.

[scott-martin]

4 hours ago, JRE said:

many amazons own a Red Sword Talisman

Red Swords for everyone!

Hey, it's the Hero Wars

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, JRE said:

I have only seen one "The Red Sword of Tolat", and it has a fairly linear history.

If there are several generations of this sword, I bet every single specimen has its own unique series of owners.

Uxoral ecstasy might consist of getting breakfast in bed, finding the garbage taken out, the kitchen cleared up after having been served some slab of meat from the grill, and maybe flowers?

[Erol of Backford]

Maybe there are hidden shrines all over the Island? If you must, you are able to find lots of interesting items if you look on Trowjang.

Maybe to be a sage on the island of Trowjang has various skills/craft/focus studies not normal in other lands?

Now I am wondering what the real meaning of "Temple of the Wooden Sword" was?

On 8/8/2022 at 4:41 PM, Erol of Backford said:

and carving the beautiful hardwood charms that they export.

The exported wooden charms are also suspect?

[JRE]

That could be an alternate reason for a Trowjang amazon to visit Esrolia, to promote their traditional wooden charms, including the Red Swords of Tolat. She may be a guest of a Melib Issaries trader to present to the Esrolian matriarchs who is behind those wooden swords that are taking Nochet by storm...

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

That could be an alternate reason for a Trowjang amazon to visit Esrolia, to promote their traditional wooden charms, including the Red Swords of Tolat. She may be a guest of a Melib Issaries trader to present to the Esrolian matriarchs who is behind those wooden swords that are taking Nochet by storm...

This is getting into Settlers of Catan silliness: "Got wood for sheep!"

[scott-martin]

5 hours ago, JRE said:

That could be an alternate reason for a Trowjang amazon to visit Esrolia, to promote their traditional wooden charms, including the Red Swords of Tolat. She may be a guest of a Melib Issaries trader to present to the Esrolian matriarchs who is behind those wooden swords that are taking Nochet by storm...

Ladies, gentlemen, demivirgins of all pronouns: may I present the inner teaching of the Red Earth Alliance. If you'll just take one of these traditional wooden charms from the shingle (imported at great cost from the new colonies) you'll understand that the husband protector complex is obsolete in the new world here now. Say farewell to all others who failed to satisfy. All you need is one god, he is a fun god and most importantly a red god, he is portable and he likes the moon. You have nothing to lose but your marital chains and a modest donation duty free. 

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, JRE said:

That could be an alternate reason for a Trowjang amazon to visit Esrolia, to promote their traditional wooden charms, including the Red Swords of Tolat. She may be a guest of a Melib Issaries trader to present to the Esrolian matriarchs who is behind those wooden swords that are taking Nochet by storm...

Such decorations would be very popular during the annual Festival of the Spear in Nochet (a "parade" which progresses from the Lodril Temple to Esrola's Temple).

[Erol of Backford]

Do any Marazi use sorcery? Is it taught/learned on Trowjang to be more specific? The Genertela book calls the culture out as barbarian rather than civilized...

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Do any Marazi use sorcery? Is it taught/learned on Trowjang to be more specific? The Genertela book calls the culture out as barbarian rather than civilized...

Someone who was called a philosopher might be a sorceror in terms of Lhankoring style knowledge magics but that's about it IMO.

[JRE]

As I propose the Marazi welcome and actively recruit skilled women, I would say that surely there are sorceresses among them, and, although that was not the question, mystics as well. I would propose that they cannot go beyond initiate in the Trowjang Tolat cult, but I would have it an unusual but accepted form of magic. As it seems to be in most of the East, despite the scars left by the Middle Seas Empire. 

Of course it would require developing your own view of what sorcery goes in Kralorela and the East Isles. With the East Isles you have at least some help in the Jonstown Compendium. 

[Joerg]

The RQ3 Gods of Glorantha gave initiates of the East Isles deities the option to use sorcery as personal magic, but that was at a time when "intensity manipulated only" sorcery was the personal magic of the Malkioni. Compared to many of the East Isles, the Marazi society doesn't really have to hide.

Historical maps of the Second Age show the island as part of the Duchy of Eest, a Seshnegi/Jrusteli occupied country with God Learner presence. However, there are no great stories about God Learners infiltrating local cults beyond attaining sovereignty. For the Marazi, inserting a God Learner into the cult mysteries would be quite difficult, even for the Duke of Eest possessing (but not wielding) the Red Sword of their deity.

Teaching Malkioni sorcery to a portion of the amazons might have been the Jrusteli method to gain a foothold on the island, although I am curious about the availability (and indeed acceptability) of female sorcerers doing the teaching or female talars overseeing the process of male teachers in the Middle Sea Empire.

There are eastern traditions of sorcery, while inherited from the Malkioni by way of Martalak (one of the Sheradpara), which spread throughout the Vithelan sphere of influence, and may have been available to the Marazi. I wonder whether the East knows the sorcerous Star Seers of LM Buserian by a local name. Silly hats appropriate, silly fake goatees not so much.

[Erol of Backford]

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

silly fake goatees not so much

I agree with not having the imitation facial hair! Any teachers could have been women who learned sorcery and were either ostracized or cast out for learning what only men should? They would be welcomed in Trowjang.

[Erol of Backford]

Need to add Tradetalk #13 as there is a good bit in there about Trowjang. It looks a bit to me like they have a combination 2 handed scimitar/bastard sword which looks better than a rapier? I like it.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Erol of Backford