Araslithos

[Erol of Backford]

We were theorizing that the Amazons were half divine and possibly of Agimori descendance. What would be the resultant of the Toldat side of the bloodline? Are they immortal like Elves in that they do not age if Toldat was the father? Do they have any characteristic enhancements? I am wondering why they wouldn't be like Mistress Race Trolls in comparison to say Dark Trolls? Not that Agimori are not a good bit superior to the standard human stock in Glorantha.

[Joerg]

I don't see any evidence for an agimori ancestry of the Marazi - they are in all likelihood of the same Eastern phenotype as the Teshnans and the Sofali near them, with less (if any) Zaranistangi or Wareran admixture.

Tolat is generally depicted as a red-skinned god depicted as the dominant phenotype of his worshippers (if there are such pictorial representations of the deity at all). From the description of their hardwood craft, statuary of Tolat on Trowjang might be limited to the phallus.

Having a deity as a parent doesn't necessarily mean a longer life. Often it means that one's flame burns brighter rather than longer.

[Erol of Backford]

I'll check again through posts and written material, not sure where the Agimori descendant idea came from... Thanks!

[dumuzid]

Off the top of my head, the Marazi explanation for their own genesis (per the Guide) is that they descend from women who were failed by their mates and societies in the Darkness, and chose to follow Tolat instead as their lover and leader.  The original Marazi could've been from any number of late-Gods-War Gloranthan societies, in both Genertela and Pamaltela.  They might not even have all been human: it's at least theoretically possible that female aldryami, trolls etc. pledged themselves to Tolat in the Darkness, he is a creature of both the Sky and the Underworld after all.

e:  Since it hasn't been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I'd add that while there's not much reason to expect Shargash/Tolat shrines and temples in south-central Genertela, there is one place on that continent where Red Planet worship is strong outside of Teshnos and Dara Happa: northwest Genertela, Fronela generally but especially the kingdom of Jonatela, where the God of the Red Planet is worshiped under the name Vorthan.  The kings of Jonatela are High Priests of Vorthan, along with several other gods.  The Red Sword of Melib (AKA the Red Sword of the Zaranistangi, probably the third in the Red Sword lineage) lies at the Temple of War in Spada, Loskalm circa 1619 ST, where it has rested since its last known use: by 'the foreign hero Avlor,' per the Guide, in the final revolt against the God Learners in Fronela.  Avlor is almost certainly the same person as Avalor, the High King of Eest who ran off with the Red Sword into the west in the late Second Age, and he may also be Sigur, the first king of post-God Learner Loskalm.

Edited October 25, 2022 by dumuzid

[Erol of Backford]

2 hours ago, dumuzid said:

there's not much reason to expect Shargash/Tolat shrines and temples in south-central Genertela

That being said and accepted, what would be an alternate for this character in the Heortland as a daughter of Arasilthos the Sage? I see it most likely Lhankor Mhy, possibly even sent to the Holy Country to travel, discover and study? But would all Lightbringers not be seem as an enemy god of Tolat or just neutral?

If her mother were Arasilthos she'd liikely be a bit out of the norms for an Amazon do you think?

Would this character carry some sort of Tolat tailsman/doll with her while on her travels?

[dumuzid]

25 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

That being said and accepted, what would be an alternate for this character in the Heortland as a daughter of Arasilthos the Sage?

If she reached Initiate status in the Tolat cult before leaving the East she wouldn't necessarily need a shrine to worship at: as long as she's got a rune point left come the next holy day (for Shargash at least that's Wildday, Death Week each season, plus associated cults) she can cast Sanctify to create a temporary ceremonial space dedicated to Tolat even in the lands of the storm barbarians.  As others have mentioned she could also make periodic pilgrimages to Nochet, where there's a Teshnan quarter that probably has at least a shrine dedicated to Tolat, given his cult's importance in Melib.  These would be the answers for her continuing to practice any Teshnos/Eastern cults while living in Heortland.  Some communities, especially trade-focused settlements, will have a 'shrine to unknown gods' that works as a sacred space for guests who worship powers not recognized or known within the community.  If the group is associated with a Dormal sailing ship it will have a shrine on deck that functions as a shrine to all cults worshiped by full members of its crew, as well.  This last option has proven pretty important in my current campaign, which has traveled from Prax to Fronela by sailing ship.

Her alternatives would be to join a local cult, which has its own complications and advantages, or potentially to be a practicing mystic, as her parent likely is.  Of course there's no rules that I know of for Teshnan/Kralorelan/East Isles mysticism, so you'd have to take what's described in the Guide and the Stafford Library's Arcane Lore and riff out the details with the daughter's player, a labor-intensive but potentially rewarding process.

Edited October 25, 2022 by dumuzid

[Erol of Backford]

33 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

she can cast Sanctify to create a temporary ceremonial space

Had not thought of that, thank you!

Will need to look at the mystic stuff, I have Arcane Lore but only did scans for items... Maybe this weekend. Thanks again.

[Joerg]

13 hours ago, dumuzid said:

Avlor is almost certainly the same person as Avalor, the High King of Eest who ran off with the Red Sword into the west in the late Second Age, and he may also be Sigur, the first king of post-God Learner Loskalm.

I don't think that that timetable works out - Avalor left Teshnos rather late before the cataclysms, and Halwal's liberation of Fronela started significantly earlier.

It would be nice to know more about the associations of the kidnappers of his wife.

About Vorthan being the same deity as Shargash / Tolat, the likelihood would be better if the God Learners had named him that way, and if the deity was introduced only by Avalor or his foes (a possible explanation for the abduction of his wife), why was it separated from the Red Sword?

[dumuzid]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

I don't think that that timetable works out - Avalor left Teshnos rather late before the cataclysms, and Halwal's liberation of Fronela started significantly earlier.

According to the Guide, the (sparse) timeline runs:

Avalor leaves Teshnos in 950 ST (GtG 429), ten years after the Closing cuts Jrustela off from the wider world (GtG 138).

The final revolution against the God Learners in Fronela succeeds in 980 ST (GtG 200).

I think it's perfectly reasonable for Avalor to have made his way to Fronela within thirty years.  It's also possible that an adult child of his, even one fathered after he left Teshnos, is the one who arrives with the Red Sword as "the foreign Hero Avlor who used it to aid Tryensaval and Halwal to free Loskalm from the God Learners" (GtG 211).  As you say, it's a shame we have no sources about what exactly Avalor did when he headed west with the Sword, but there's room in the timeline for him to have had years of perilous adventures in late Second Age Genertela before he or someone with a peculiarly similar name brings the Red Sword to Fronela.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

and if the deity was introduced only by Avalor or his foes (a possible explanation for the abduction of his wife), why was it separated from the Red Sword?

I wouldn't expect Vorthan to have been introduced to the region in the Second Age.  The center of Vorthan worship seems to be Vorthan's Hill, near Ayos in the western heartlands of modern Jonatela, and the cult is of enough local significance that the Courtyard of Sacrifices in the palace of the Jonatelan kings has a shrine dedicated to him alongside Jonat, Humakt, Orlanth, Talor, and Urox (GtG 227).  The Temple of War at Spada, where the Sword was interred, is described in the Guide as a place "where the barbarians once placated the gods of war and storm with blood sacrifices," (GtG 211).  I'm not sure what you mean by the Sword being separated from Vorthan, it sounds to me like it was laid to rest after the revolution in a place at least partially dedicated to the Fronelan god of the Red Planet.  I'd argue that Vorthan's cult has roots in Fronela at least as deep as the coming of the Lightbringer cults in the First Age,  possibly earlier through the Zaranistangi followers of Piku, and is 'the same god' as Shargash to the same degree as Tolat: probably within the God Learner monomyth, but with significant local variation.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, dumuzid said:

According to the Guide, the (sparse) timeline runs:

Avalor leaves Teshnos in 950 ST (GtG 429), ten years after the Closing cuts Jrustela off from the wider world (GtG 138).

The final revolution against the God Learners in Fronela succeeds in 980 ST (GtG 200).

I think it's perfectly reasonable for Avalor to have made his way to Fronela within thirty years. 

No doubt about that. What I find unfeasable is for Avalor/Avlor to enter history under a different name as one of Halwal's long-time companions.

 

2 hours ago, dumuzid said:

It's also possible that an adult child of his, even one fathered after he left Teshnos, is the one who arrives with the Red Sword as "the foreign Hero Avlor who used it to aid Tryensaval and Halwal to free Loskalm from the God Learners" (GtG 211). 

While that is a possibility, Greg's dynasties have only very few direct re-uses of ruler names. Gloranthan rulers tend to have recurring name elements plus variations, often with elements from deity names.

 

 

2 hours ago, dumuzid said:

As you say, it's a shame we have no sources about what exactly Avalor did when he headed west with the Sword, but there's room in the timeline for him to have had years of perilous adventures in late Second Age Genertela before he or someone with a peculiarly similar name brings the Red Sword to Fronela.

I think that a single bearer of that name is the most probable scenario.

 

 

2 hours ago, dumuzid said:

I wouldn't expect Vorthan to have been introduced to the region in the Second Age.  The center of Vorthan worship seems to be Vorthan's Hill, near Ayos in the western heartlands of modern Jonatela, and the cult is of enough local significance that the Courtyard of Sacrifices in the palace of the Jonatelan kings has a shrine dedicated to him alongside Jonat, Humakt, Orlanth, Talor, and Urox (GtG 227). 

Jonat started his kingdom only around 1050, barely managing to extract his Makanist sorcerers from the Breaking of Seshnela to his homeland.

The reason why I got the idea that Vorthan might have been introduced after the presence of the God Learners is the fact that the God Learners were well aware of Tolat as an enemy deity (from their conflict with the Loper People) and then the experiences in Eest. Any God Learner worth that name would have made the identification of the two red planet deities and prove their identity, probably by transferring items or myths from one to the other.

Since this did not happen, I wonder why not. And one possibility is that the God Learners never met Vorthan because he was introduced only after they had been overcome.

2 hours ago, dumuzid said:

The Temple of War at Spada, where the Sword was interred, is described in the Guide as a place "where the barbarians once placated the gods of war and storm with blood sacrifices," (GtG 211). 

The Lightbringers (and especially Harmast) would have brought awareness of Shargash/Jagrekriand to the Fronelan Orlanthi (including the future Jonatings). Vorthan as an acceptable face of Jagrekriand (about as acceptable as Zorak Zoran) does have a place in a temple of all war gods.

The Temple of War might be attracting the Kingdom of War...

 

2 hours ago, dumuzid said:

I'm not sure what you mean by the Sword being separated from Vorthan, it sounds to me like it was laid to rest after the revolution in a place at least partially dedicated to the Fronelan god of the Red Planet.

If the Jonating kings are the chief priests of Vorthan but don't have access to the sword, there is a separation of the cult from its most potent artifact.Go

 

2 hours ago, dumuzid said:

I'd argue that Vorthan's cult has roots in Fronela at least as deep as the coming of the Lightbringer cults in the First Age,  possibly earlier through the Zaranistangi followers of Piku, and is 'the same god' as Shargash to the same degree as Tolat: probably within the God Learner monomyth, but with significant local variation.

What keeps the God Learners from stratifying the red planet deities, taking each of their special magics, applying them to the other side, and utilizing them for their own nefarious purposes?

The God Learners identified the Teshnan fire deities Zitro Argon, Somash and Solf as the Dara Happan celestial brothers Dayzatar, Yelm and Lodril (known through Dawn Age Theyalan syncretism rather than direct exposure), and probably applied their knowledge to anticipate or subvert local secrets.

[scott-martin]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Any God Learner worth that name would have made the identification of the two red planet deities and prove their identity, probably by transferring items or myths from one to the other.

That's really evocative. I wonder if it went the other way around, with the Eest regime introducing aspects of a more familiar red god to Amazons eager to learn fresh ways to kill things. Vorthan may be the result of a different phase of that project or a different phenomenon altogether . . . what's left behind when part of native "Tol" is transplanted.

[Erol of Backford]

So say this daughter of Araslithos goes running off to locate the Red Sword thinking its somewhere in or near Heortland in a tomb and clues are to be found in particular libraries there. Which libraries would she go to to check and what clues if any might be found.

What rumor(s) along the coast might she hear while heading west from Trowjang about the Red Sword?

Even if its a wild goose chase that leads to nothing it will be fun to role play it out from East to West along the coast. Maybe finding the sword takes years or even longer than the campaign lasts...

Also could she do a sanctity ritual-enchantment by sacrificing POW on her own sword/whatever before leaving Trowjang with some sort of communal ceremony so she has a holy spot traveling with her? Maybe her mother and aunts add some POW to the sword as part of her send off on the quest?

It could be that no matter where she goes all over central southern Genertela there are rumors of the Red Sword that keep popping up from obscure sources? There is a guy in Tink who knows a lot, an old Wyrm in the Rubble, who else has been around a while, oh the Black Horse guy, maybe all these characters all have some bits of information that they will hand out after doing them some favor or making a payment of some artifact they need to have collect for them?

Connect the dots of aged persons or creatures? Vampires? A large sitting giant who doesn't move much? Were they all around in the year 450?

Are there other really old people in central southern Genertela that could be part of this connect the dots to the Red Sword?

Fronela is a long way to go to talk to people...

[jajagappa]

41 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Which libraries would she go to to check and what clues if any might be found.

Jelenkev, it's the one about 10km west of Mount Passant.  More likely I think than Derensev by Whitewall.  

However!  Keep in mind that Belintar gathered the wisdom of all the Temples of Knowledge at the Final Information Library at the City of Wonders.  So, if your game is pre-1616, then it's the City of Wonders you want to go to.  The Purple Sages have been busy, busy, busy.  But trying to find something there - probably need some Intrigue and Bureaucracy skill rolls to get in, and very good Library Use roll.  

Or, perhaps it is simply easiest to gain an audience with Belintar himself!  Likely he can tell you all sorts of useful things about Tolat and the Red Sword.

[jajagappa]

46 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Are there other really old people in central southern Genertela that could be part of this connect the dots to the Red Sword?

The Brithini Talar of Refuge.  He's Brithini, i.e. immortal, and been around a long time.  Might even have known Tolat!  Might not be very talkative, or think of the PC's as stirring up things that shouldn't, and perhaps best to sink their boat once and for all.  Or perhaps send one off to Casino Town...

As above, Belintar.  Not around then, but he's the God-king and authored his own book, and all the gods partake of the Tournament of Luck and Death, so he can probably speak about Tolat, and perhaps suggest places to look for the Red Sword.  

The Dwarf.  Hard to say what he knows about the Red Sword or would want in trade.

[Erol of Backford]

On 8/6/2022 at 6:55 PM, Joerg said:

There is always the search for the Red Sword of Tolat, gone missing when Avalor carried it off to free his wife. She may have had some fruitless endeavor in Corflu about Selenteen's expedition, and might look for that hidden history in the Holy Country. Possibly on the trail of a conspiracy to keep those Teshnites forgotten?

But the Amazons would not have been part of that.

Sounds like a plan... long-term quest but after Belintar and the libraries its off to visit all the old folk, maybe they will go to Dragon's Eye as well?

[Erol of Backford]

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Brithini Talar of Refuge

and 

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The Dwarf

Have to add them of course, better and better!

[JRE]

Actually, I would prefer if Vorthan was a God Learner syncretic creation, but Avlor / Avalor managed to steal control of the cult by showing up with the Red Sword.

The God Learners may have used such  a warlike cult as easier to control than Humakt and its inflexible rules. Jonat, coming from Seshnela might have been familiar with it, but deliberately limited the worship to the Royal Family, in order to avoid others exploiting it.

From the point of view of Havalar, Avlor may have been his companion for ten years before getting caught in the liberation of Seshnela. From Avlor's point of view, Havalar may have been a wise guy that directed him in the right direction and helped him get his righteous vengeance. In his old age, rather than return to Teshnos, he prefers just to end his days in Fronela and bequest the sword and the power to Vorthan's cult. Jonat arrives later and he does not dare disturb the Red Sword, as dire omens exist when it goes out into the world, so it remains resting till the Hero Wars. 

[Erol of Backford]

9 hours ago, JRE said:

showing up with the Red Sword

Was this close to the year 450? Just not familiar with the Red Sword timeline. And if so was this (when was) the last time the sword went out into the world to be lost? Last seen in the Heortland or so I thought I read?

[dumuzid]

7 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Was this close to the year 450? Just not familiar with the Red Sword timeline. And if so was this (when was) the last time the sword went out into the world to be lost? Last seen in the Heortland or so I thought I read?

The Red Sword has changed hands and criss-crossed Genertela a few times, and its origins lie in the Artmali Empire of Pamaltela.  Myths describe how the sword was wielded by the kings of the Zaranistangi, to save Melib from the Great Flood of Sshorg in the God Time, and subsequently on adventures beyond Melib.  I think an old source said it was lost to the Brithini for a while in the early First Age, after they ambushed a group of wandering Zaranistangi they mistook for their ancient enemies, the Blue Vadeli.  The Sword returned to Genertela with Arkat when he led the Brithini Army of Law into Seshnela to oppose the Empire of Light.  It remained among the treasures of the Autarchy, the realm he founded in Ralios after the Gbaji Wars, and the Autarchs traded it back to the Zaranistangi to get their aid in their long struggle with Seshnela.  In 760 ST the Zaranistangi king Bradoszaran lost the sword in battle with the Seshnelan God Learners. 

The God Learners did not fully understand the Sword.  It took fifteen years before a God Learner adventurer named Ordanal figured out enough of its origins to sail to Melib, where he re-sheathed the Sword in the earth of Tolat's great temple there, a deed that saw him acclaimed king of the island.  He and his successors expanded God Learner rule over all of Teshnos as the 'Kingdom of Eest,' but none could draw the Sword from the earth again until Avalor, the last and greatest king of Eest, who could draw and sheathe the sword as he wished.  He abandoned everything and took the sword with him in 950 to chase the kidnappers of his wife into the west. 

The movements of the sword for the next few decades are unknown until 980, when it was laid to rest in the Temple of War at Spada, a city of Loskalm, after 'the foreign hero Avlor' wielded it in the final revolution against the God Learners there.  As of ~1618-19, the 'present' of the Guide to Glorantha, the Sword is still interred at Spada.  According to the 'Prophecies of the Hero Wars' scattered throughout the Guide it will eventually be recovered by the Teshnan sailor-hero Gebel and the Fonritian rebel slave leader Gabaryanga, as part of the great quest to heal the crippled god Artmal, son of the Blue Moon and father of the Veldang people of Pamaltela.

The Sword would be known in Prax and Heortland as the great weapon and symbol of the 'Loper People,' another name for the Zaranistangi, who travelled through those lands extensively in the First and Second Ages, but who have mostly withdrawn into the Gods World by the Third Age.

[davecake]

On 10/26/2022 at 5:29 AM, dumuzid said:

Of course there's no rules that I know of for Teshnan/Kralorelan/East Isles mysticism, so you'd have to take what's described in the Guide and the Stafford Library's Arcane Lore and riff out the details with the daughter's player, a labor-intensive but potentially rewarding process.

Rules for East Isles Mysticism are included in our recent JC product Korolan Islands: Hero Wars in the East Isles https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/411738/Korolan-Islands-Hero-Wars-in-the-East-Isles--Volume-1 

While those rules concentrate on the Mystics of the East Isles, and are more or less a basic skeleton without huge amounts of detail, I definitely wrote them with the intention that they would work as a general basis for mysticism everywhere but especially the East, including Kralorela. It was essentially me riffing out the details of Revealed Mythologies and Arcane Lore, plus a big pile of research into various real world mystical traditions.
FWIW, a very very brief summary would be - core Mysticism is essentially Illumination. Many mystics gain magic from Austerities, which is a form of magic which is not intrinsically mystic but does not interfere with mystic spiritual progress, and may be used for more mundane purposes such as martial arts. It is something like Shamanic abilities (but not restricted to spirit powers), and something like Gifts and Geases. Those who are already Illuminated can gain other magical powers, many of which they do primarily for spiritual reasons but which have useful mundane effects.
 

[Erol of Backford]

On 10/27/2022 at 2:06 PM, dumuzid said:

The Sword would be known in Prax and Heortland as the great weapon and symbol of the 'Loper People,'

I'll need to readup on them but, may I assume if a PC from the East is looking, any information on the Loper People would be at the Knowledge Temple in Pavis or with the tribes' maybe wandering shaman?

Also there was mention of three (3) swords, (of which two might be replicas similar to the Orb and Scepter for the Sun Dome)?

On 10/25/2022 at 1:53 PM, dumuzid said:

The Red Sword of Melib (AKA the Red Sword of the Zaranistangi, probably the third in the Red Sword lineage) lies at the Temple of War in Spada, Loskalm circa 1619 ST, where it has rested since its last known use: by 'the foreign hero Avlor,' per the Guide, in the final revolt against the God Learners in Fronela. 

[dumuzid]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

I'll need to readup on them but, may I assume if a PC from the East is looking, any information on the Loper People would be at the Knowledge Temple in Pavis or with the tribes' maybe wandering shaman?

In Prax the Loper People are a sort of boogieman.  They were like the Praxian tribes in that they were intrinsically tied to their Loper Beast mounts, but moved vastly faster than the tribes could as a group, so they seemed to simply appear from nowhere, and return there just as quickly (the Zaranistangi and their mounts possess excellent, cheap teleportation magic, see the 'Loper' entry starting p. 150 of the Bestiary, for both rules and a picture).  It's been a very long time since they were last known to travel the wastes though, so you'd be as likely to find tidbits about them in Prax from wandering storytellers and performers as from actual shamans.  Ancestor shamans in contact with ancestors from the Second Age and Earlier might be better informed though.

In Heortland the Knowledge Temples might preserve information about the travels of the Loper People, and the very best libraries, like that of the Nochet Knowledge Temple in Esrolia, might contain references to their service with the Autarchs.  Just like with Praxian sources, though, all of this will be pretty archaic knowledge, most of it coming from before the cataclysm at the end of the Second Age.

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Also there was mention of three (3) swords, (of which two might be replicas similar to the Orb and Scepter for the Sun Dome)?

No, not replicas.  A lineage of divine swords, which have begotten offspring parthenogenically.  The first Red Sword was the Sword of Tolat.  The myths say that when Tolat/Shargash battled Umath, the first storm god, after he broke through the Sky Dome from outside, Tolat was nearly bested but saved in the nick of time by his nephew Artmal, son of the Blue Moon.  To reward his nephew Tolat had his Red Sword produce a child, a new weapon which became the Red Sword of Artmal.  Much later in the Gods Age, Artmal led his children the Artmali people down from the Blue Moon to settle in Pamaltela and he's said to have given the offspring of his sword, the third Red Sword, to his son Yeetai, the first Artmali Emperor.  Still later in the Gods Age, the Zaranistangi (cousins of the Artmali, descended from the Blue Moon and the god of the wandering star the Orlanthi call Mastakos) gained their own Red Sword from the Artmali Emperor, but accounts differ.  One version says they saved the Artmali Emperor in battle, and the Emperor repaid them by doing as Tolat and Artmal did, and gave them the offspring of his Red Sword as an heirloom.  Another account says the Zaranistangi betrayed the Artmali and stole the Emperor's Sword. 

Whichever is true, this is the Red Sword the Zaranistangi took with them when they departed Pamaltela for what's now Melib and Teshnos, the same sword that was eventually lost to the Brithini, regained from the Autarchy, lost again to the God Learners etc.  Thus the Red Sword of the Zaranistangi is either the third or fourth sword in the lineage descending from the Red Sword of Tolat, depending on what exactly happened between the Artmali and Zaranistangi before the latter left Pamaltela.

[Erol of Backford]

18 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

third or fourth sword

Ok, that makes sense. It seems one sword is in the Temple of War in Spada, Loskalm, another is possibly still in Melib? A quest to find one of the maybe two (2) lost swords is still viable. Back to the crisscrossing of Prax, Sartar and the Holy Country visiting a few "Older Characters" to see what they know.

Does anyone wish to list the 3-4 swords and the birthdates?

[dumuzid]

3 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Ok, that makes sense. It seems one sword is in the Temple of War in Spada, Loskalm, another is possibly still in Melib?

The Zaranistangi only had one Red Sword, the one they brought from Pamaltela to Melib.  The Great Temple of Tolat in Melib has been without its Red Sword since Avalor took it with him into the west in 950.  Hence the quests for the Red Sword: the expedition led by Selenteen of Alampish out of Teshnos, that got as far as the Zola Fel River in Prax in 1250 but no further; and the expedition of Gebel and Gabaryanga at the start of the Hero Wars (i.e., the 1620s ST), which is supposed to succeed according to the Prophecies of the Hero Wars in the Guide.

10 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Does anyone wish to list the 3-4 swords and the birthdates?

No exact birthdates exist because the swords were born in the Gods Age, before Time.

The First Sword, Tolat's Sword, I've never heard a genesis story for.  He carries it in his earliest myths.  It dates to the Golden Age of the Gods Age or earlier.

The Second Sword, Artmal's Sword, was born in the late Golden Age after Umath's invasion of the sky.  It was probably lost when Artmal was slain by Baraku, the Pamaltelan invader Storm god usually associated with Orlanth.

The Third Sword, Yeetai's Sword, was born in the Storm Age after the Artmali first settled in Pamaltela.  It was either stolen by the Zaranistangi, becoming the Sword of Melib, or lost in the wreck of the Artmali Empire in the Darkness Age of the Gods World.

If the Sword of Melib is actually the offspring of the Third Sword and not the same weapon, then it was born in the late Storm or early Darkness age, when it was given to the Zaranistangi by one of the later Artmali Emperors.  There are no known offspring of the Sword of Melib.

Of the several Red Swords only the Sword of Melib is known to still exist in the Middle World: at the Temple of War in Spada.  The others can only be contacted or summoned by heroquesting into the Gods World and experiencing their associated myths.

[Erol of Backford]

So its a quest to assemble a Hero Quest to find one of the swords after extensive travel and interview sessions. Perfect for the daughter of the Sage Araslithos.

Now we just need to sort through the list of "Old Venerable Characters" as to sequencing and possible information they may have related to the Red Swords.

This is, as always a great start to an interesting subplot to our Backford campaign. thanks again!